Should a pastor know individual "giving" information?

[RAIDER]

This topic was touched on another thread.  I thought there might be the possibility of enough discussion to merit its own thread.  How much information should a pastor know about the financial giving of individuals?  Should he know who tithes?  Should he know the amount that an individual tithes?  Hacker Nation, what think ye? 

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

No, no, and no

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Not a chance.

 

[16KJV11]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.
BCH, would you want a deacon or recruit a teacher who does not give consistently?

 

[RAIDER]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

In Jesus' teaching on giving, it was always as a means of justice to meet the needs of others. Granted, He did pay the "temple tax" which some may consider as being a "tithe", but the focus of His teaching concerning giving voluntarily was meeting the needs of others.

With that in mind, if the pastor keeps track of tithing to the church, shouldn't he also be keeping track of personal benevolent giving on behalf of the congregant? And if the giver doesn't keep track ("Let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing"), why should it be a pastoral responsibility?

And what about the flip side? Shouldn't the pastor be more concerned about meeting the needs of others outside the support of church ministry? If the giver is a servant of Christ, what right does the pastor have to determine to whom the gift is given?

 

[RAIDER]

In Jesus' teaching on giving, it was always as a means of justice to meet the needs of others. Granted, He did pay the "temple tax" which some may consider as being a "tithe", but the focus of His teaching concerning giving voluntarily was meeting the needs of others.

With that in mind, if the pastor keeps track of tithing to the church, shouldn't he also be keeping track of personal benevolent giving on behalf of the congregant? And if the giver doesn't keep track ("Let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing"), why should it be a pastoral responsibility?

And what about the flip side? Shouldn't the pastor be more concerned about meeting the needs of others outside the support of church ministry? If the giver is a servant of Christ, what right does the pastor have to determine to whom the gift is given?

Yes, Smellin, but Paul says......  (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

 

[Smellin Coffee]

In Jesus' teaching on giving, it was always as a means of justice to meet the needs of others. Granted, He did pay the "temple tax" which some may consider as being a "tithe", but the focus of His teaching concerning giving voluntarily was meeting the needs of others.

With that in mind, if the pastor keeps track of tithing to the church, shouldn't he also be keeping track of personal benevolent giving on behalf of the congregant? And if the giver doesn't keep track ("Let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing"), why should it be a pastoral responsibility?

And what about the flip side? Shouldn't the pastor be more concerned about meeting the needs of others outside the support of church ministry? If the giver is a servant of Christ, what right does the pastor have to determine to whom the gift is given?

Yes, Smellin, but Paul says......  (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Actually, I believe Paul was right in what he said about this:

"Who are we to judge another's servant?"

I would paraphrase, "Who is the pastor to judge to whom God's servant gives?"

 

[RAIDER]

In Jesus' teaching on giving, it was always as a means of justice to meet the needs of others. Granted, He did pay the "temple tax" which some may consider as being a "tithe", but the focus of His teaching concerning giving voluntarily was meeting the needs of others.

With that in mind, if the pastor keeps track of tithing to the church, shouldn't he also be keeping track of personal benevolent giving on behalf of the congregant? And if the giver doesn't keep track ("Let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing"), why should it be a pastoral responsibility?

And what about the flip side? Shouldn't the pastor be more concerned about meeting the needs of others outside the support of church ministry? If the giver is a servant of Christ, what right does the pastor have to determine to whom the gift is given?

Yes, Smellin, but Paul says......  (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Actually, I believe Paul was right in what he said about this:

"Who are we to judge another's servant?"

I would paraphrase, "Who is the pastor to judge to whom God's servant gives?"

Or, "Who is the pastor to judge if a deacon smokes pot?" 

 

[sword]

Don't want to hijack this thread, but for you pastors what should I tithe on (increase)?

1. Income?
2. Side income?
3. Benefits?
4. Bonuses?
5. Intangible benefits like use of company car, housing, clothing allowance, use of company jet?
6. Gifts (from family members)?
7. Gifts (outside family)?
8. Allowance from mom & dad?
9 Inheritances?
10 life insurance?
11 Lottery winnings?
12 Love offerings?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

In Jesus' teaching on giving, it was always as a means of justice to meet the needs of others. Granted, He did pay the "temple tax" which some may consider as being a "tithe", but the focus of His teaching concerning giving voluntarily was meeting the needs of others.

With that in mind, if the pastor keeps track of tithing to the church, shouldn't he also be keeping track of personal benevolent giving on behalf of the congregant? And if the giver doesn't keep track ("Let not the right hand know what the left hand is doing"), why should it be a pastoral responsibility?

And what about the flip side? Shouldn't the pastor be more concerned about meeting the needs of others outside the support of church ministry? If the giver is a servant of Christ, what right does the pastor have to determine to whom the gift is given?

Yes, Smellin, but Paul says......  (Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Actually, I believe Paul was right in what he said about this:

"Who are we to judge another's servant?"

I would paraphrase, "Who is the pastor to judge to whom God's servant gives?"

Or, "Who is the pastor to judge if a deacon smokes pot?" 

Well, since church structure including the positions of pastors and deacons and elders was not how Jesus prescribed/described the church to be anyway, I guess the pastor should have that right in that case. Religious humanism should expect judgementalism, I s'pose.

 

[RAIDER]

Don't want to hijack this thread, but for you pastors what should I tithe on (increase)?

1. Income?
2. Side income?
3. Benefits?
4. Bonuses?
5. Intangible benefits like use of company car, housing, clothing allowance, use of company jet?
6. Gifts (from family members)?
7. Gifts (outside family)?
8. Allowance from mom & dad?
9 Inheritances?
10 life insurance?
11 Lottery winnings?
12 Love offerings?

No hijack at all.  Good questions.

 

[prophet]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

Yes it would be feelings, there being no Scriptural mandate for such.

1Ti 3:1-7
Chapter 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Raider, I ask this in all sincerity...

Are we really willing to pull the roots out of every non-biblical practice and doctrine, in order to get to the bottom of where our movement went wrong?
Or are we just looking to go backwards in time enough to find an era that we feel comfortable in, to re-live the "good old days"?





Anishinaabe

 

[sword]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

Yes it would be feelings, there being no Scriptural mandate for such.

1Ti 3:1-7
Chapter 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Raider, I ask this in all sincerity...
Are we really willing to pull the roots out of every non-biblical practice and doctrine, in order to get to the bottom of where our movement went wrong?Or are we just looking to go backwards in time enough to find an era that we feel comfortable in, to re-live the "good old days"?

Anishinaabe

Can you explain the question, I don't follow?

I know the question was addressed to Raider, but I can be a little slow sometimes.

 

[RAIDER]

Don't want to hijack this thread, but for you pastors what should I tithe on (increase)?

1. Income?
2. Side income?
3. Benefits?
4. Bonuses?
5. Intangible benefits like use of company car, housing, clothing allowance, use of company jet?
6. Gifts (from family members)?
7. Gifts (outside family)?
8. Allowance from mom & dad?
9 Inheritances?
10 life insurance?
11 Lottery winnings?
12 Love offerings?

Several of these have got to go under the "as the Spirt leads" category.  We definitely know that you can't outgive God.

I would say a definite would be #1, 2, 4, 5 (some of them), 6 and 7 (cash), 8, 9, and 12.

 

[RAIDER]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

Yes it would be feelings, there being no Scriptural mandate for such.

1Ti 3:1-7
Chapter 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Raider, I ask this in all sincerity...

Are we really willing to pull the roots out of every non-biblical practice and doctrine, in order to get to the bottom of where our movement went wrong?
Or are we just looking to go backwards in time enough to find an era that we feel comfortable in, to re-live the "good old days"?





Anishinaabe

Prophet, while your post is good, it has nothing to do with the OP.  16KJV11 has stated that he feels it is important that an individual taking a leadership position in the church be someone that tithes.  I would agree.

 

[prophet]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

Yes it would be feelings, there being no Scriptural mandate for such.

1Ti 3:1-7
Chapter 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Raider, I ask this in all sincerity...
Are we really willing to pull the roots out of every non-biblical practice and doctrine, in order to get to the bottom of where our movement went wrong?Or are we just looking to go backwards in time enough to find an era that we feel comfortable in, to re-live the "good old days"?

Anishinaabe

Can you explain the question, I don't follow?

I know the question was addressed to Raider, but I can be a little slow sometimes.

When we see that something is wrong in our movement, do we go to the Scriptures, and ask God, or do we look at each other, and ask of men?

For instance, why isnt there a higher success rate among IFB raised children?

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

Yes it would be feelings, there being no Scriptural mandate for such.

1Ti 3:1-7
Chapter 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Raider, I ask this in all sincerity...

Are we really willing to pull the roots out of every non-biblical practice and doctrine, in order to get to the bottom of where our movement went wrong?
Or are we just looking to go backwards in time enough to find an era that we feel comfortable in, to re-live the "good old days"?





Anishinaabe

Prophet, while your post is good, it has nothing to do with the OP.  16KJV11 has stated that he feels it is important that an individual taking a leadership position in the church be someone that tithes.  I would agree.

I posted the Biblical requirements for a bishop, directly from Scripture, proving no mention of paying tithes.
Wasnt that an answer to yours and  Pittsburger' s posts?

It mentions the Biblical form of NT giving in both lists, "hospitality".

It was a direct answer.

Anishinaabe

 

[RAIDER]

I only want to know that information if someone is being considered for a leadership position.
And that information would be sought from the financial secretary of whom I would ask:
Does it appear that so and so tithes?
Are they consistent?
I wouldn't want to necessarily know the amount either.
I realize that one could never really know whether someone 'tithes' or not, but you can get a pretty good educated guess based on the faithfulness of their giving.

This would be my feelings also.

Yes it would be feelings, there being no Scriptural mandate for such.

1Ti 3:1-7
Chapter 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Tit 1:7-9
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Raider, I ask this in all sincerity...

Are we really willing to pull the roots out of every non-biblical practice and doctrine, in order to get to the bottom of where our movement went wrong?
Or are we just looking to go backwards in time enough to find an era that we feel comfortable in, to re-live the "good old days"?





Anishinaabe

Prophet, while your post is good, it has nothing to do with the OP.  16KJV11 has stated that he feels it is important that an individual taking a leadership position in the church be someone that tithes.  I would agree.

I postes the Biblical requirements for a bishop, directly from Scripture, proving no mention of paying tithes.
Wasnt that an answer to yours and  Pittsburger' s posts?

It mentions the Biblical form of NT giving in both lists, "hospitality".

It was a direct answer.

Anishinaabe

You attached your post to 16KJV11's post about church members in leadership rolls tithing.  That's where I lost you.

 

[16KJV11]

When we see that something is wrong in our movement, do we go to the Scriptures, and ask God, or do we look at each other, and ask of men?

For instance, why isnt there a higher success rate among IFB raised children?

Anishinaabe
[/quote]

I think you are being a bit presumptive on the issue of IFB raised children (meaning, you are painting with a very broad brush)
I have in my hands a book by Ken Ham & Britt Beemer a book titled:
"Already Gone, Why your kids will quit church and what you can do to stop it."
Written by two men whom most IFB's wouldn't consider 'fundamentalists'.
Apparently, they see this problem as epidemic across all of Christianity.