Semi-pelagianism discussion, and defence from a non-calvinist perspective

... and it is a logical fallacy for Average Joe to demand that we prove it doesnt exist when it isnt found the Scripture.

The onus is on you to prove man has a free will (defined)
 
ALAYMAN said:
So FSSL can read Greek therefore it is thus absolutely conclusive that HIS Greek skills are greater than Calvin’s and all other Greek exegetes? Looks like you think fairly highly of your opinions, lol.


If faith were a work you’d have a point, but this same divinely inspired Paul told us otherwise in Romans.
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I guess so. The text is clear. Greek is linear and the English translations are fine. Faith is the closest term. So, I do not see why this would skip to "grace" "salvation" and not include "faith," raises more questions.

Since salvation involves grace AND faith, if these are ALL considered the "gift," how does this change anything?
 
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I don't do Greek, so I do my analysis through trusted scholars, and had originally said that this text as it regards the referent of gift is a disputed verse, even among your own camp. I assumed when I made that statement that you were aware of the "controversy" or differing opinions. Having said that, here is one exegetical case that spells out the rationale for why it is not obvious or necessarily true to use Eph 2:8-10 to prove faith is a gift of God...

The real problem is with the demonstrative pronoun, tou=to, “this.” Barth states, “The neuter pronoun, ‘this,’ may refers to one of three things: the ‘grace,’ the verb ‘saved,’ the noun ‘faith.’” Some commentators think that it refers to pi/stewj [“faith”], the nearest preceding pronoun. A serious objection to this is that the feminine noun does not match the neuter gender of the pronoun. The same problem is raised with “grace,” a feminine noun. Some would have it refer back to e0ste sesw|sme/noi [“you have been saved”], but again the antecedent would be a masculine participle. Furthermore, to refer back to any one of these words seems to be redundant. Rather than any particular word, it seems best to conclude that tou=to refers back to the preceding section. This is common, and there are numerous illustrations of such in Ephesians. For example, in 1:15 tou=to refers back to the contents of 1:3–14, in 3:1 it refers back to 2:11–22, and in 3:14 it refers back to 3:1–13. Link
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You never answered the question. Why is it that you can skip over the word faith, if it refers to the other two words?
 
FSSL said:
You never answered the question. Why is it that you can skip over the word faith, if it refers to the other two words?
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Did you read the article?
 
Grace - feminine
Salvation - Masculine
Faith - feminine

this - neuter (not an issue since neuter forms could be used with a femine antecedent)

Two possibilities:
1) "this" refers to "faith" which is a common way Paul used the pronoun in other passages. "This" is also singular.

2) "this" refers to "faith, grace, salvation." "This" could be singular if it is tied to a collection of terms.

Why do you think "faith" is not a gift? You cannot logically or grammatically exclude it.
 
FSSL said:
Grace - feminine
Salvation - Masculine
Faith - feminine

this - neuter (not an issue since neuter forms could be used with a femine antecedent)

Two possibilities:
1) "this" refers to "faith" which is a common way Paul used the pronoun in other passages. "This" is also singular.

2) "this" refers to "faith, grace, salvation." "This" could be singular if it is tied to a collection of terms.

Why do you think "faith" is not a gift? You cannot logically or grammatically exclude it.
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Did you read the article? Was their 4 possibilities the same as yours?
 
Yes. I read the article. This author states: "The Greek word touto always has reference to the preceding clause as a whole. But touto especially stresses the idea resident in the nearest main verb (or verbs) of the sentence."

His rule is confusing. I would say, "The Greek word tout can reference the preceding clause as a whole. It typically attracts to the antecedent (a noun or verbal) by gender and number."

His statement would be a new grammatical rule to me and I cannot confirm it in any of the Greek Grammars I have (I own most of them). I am not going to just brush this off... however, I am not inclined to accept this new rule until I study this out more. Language has a lot of twists and turns and I am not going to be dogmatic against his idea... yet.

Typically, a pronoun has a noun/verbal as the antecedent, not a verb. The common rule is when there is no antecedent matching the gender/number, then you take the closest word as the antecedent... In this case, the word "faith." It could also refer to the clause which includes "grace, salvation, faith"
 
You said, "I don't do Greek, so I do my analysis through trusted scholars,..."

Which is fine. I do the same. The difference is that you aren't really doing an analysis. You are simply trusting.
 
FSSL said:
You said, "I don't do Greek, so I do my analysis through trusted scholars,..."

Which is fine. I do the same. The difference is that you aren't really doing an analysis. You are simply trusting.
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Again, your language is seemingly antagonistically couched in non-factual supposition of what I may or may not know.

Simply because I have not given you my thoughts on the passage yet doesn’t mean I have not done any analysis of the passage in English.

What I said, and what I meant when I said it in the course in context of our conversation, was that I don’t have the tools to analyze the passage from a Greek exegetical standpoint. When these Greek scholars speak of the rules for Greek exegesis I have to take their word for it. That’s where I can’t vouch for or dispute the validity of the technical arguments. My premise for introducing the Greek exegesis was to point out that touto and its connections to “gift” is disputed by reasonably credible evangelical scholars, and the complexity and technical nature of the grammar of this passage is not a slam dunk for the Calvinist argument of faith being a gift of God.

That does not mean that I don’t have an opinion of what Paul is saying in the passage based upon other exegetical factors that I am able to comprehend in English.

Your most recent thread regarding that issue as it relates to other passages and scripture is definitely worth consideration in this discussion
 
FSSL said:
Yes. I read the article. This author states: "The Greek word touto always has reference to the preceding clause as a whole. But touto especially stresses the idea resident in the nearest main verb (or verbs) of the sentence."

His rule is confusing. I would say, "The Greek word tout can reference the preceding clause as a whole. It typically attracts to the antecedent (a noun or verbal) by gender and number."

His statement would be a new grammatical rule to me and I cannot confirm it in any of the Greek Grammars I have (I own most of them). I am not going to just brush this off... however, I am not inclined to accept this new rule until I study this out more. Language has a lot of twists and turns and I am not going to be dogmatic against his idea... yet.

Typically, a pronoun has a noun/verbal as the antecedent, not a verb. The common rule is when there is no antecedent matching the gender/number, then you take the closest word as the antecedent... In this case, the word "faith." It could also refer to the clause which includes "grace, salvation, faith"
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Again, I will preface the following citation by saying that I don’t know Greek rules, and therefore, don’t know if the following statement is a legitimate credible expression of Greek exegesis. But the basis for the disputation is the notion regarding faith, salvation, gifting and its antecedent is argued something like this….


The Strict-Calvinist believes it refers back to its nearest antecedent, which is faith. But this fails to hold weight in Greek, as the demonstrative pronoun must agree with its antecedent in gender. Link
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And lastly, this is a distillation of my basic beliefs on the meaning of that passage,…

Since touto refers to the previous phrase te gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos (“for by grace you have been saved through faith”), Theou to doron (“the gift of God”) is salvation. God gives everlasting life, by grace, to the one who believes in Christ. Theou (“of God”) is placed first here for emphasis and to create a contrast with ouk ex hymon (“not of yourselves”).[32] Grace is not a gift, it is the basis of the gift.[33] Faith is not a gift, it is the means by which the gift is received. Salvation is the gift. Hoehner writes: “This salvation does not have its source in man (it is ‘not from yourselves’), but rather, its source is God’s grace, for ‘it is the gift of God.”[34]on is the gift. Hoehner writes: “This salvation does not have its source in man (it is ‘not from yourselves’), but rather, its source is God’s grace, for ‘it is the gift of God.”[34]Link
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FSSL said:
So, you are now denying another clear statement from Scripture? How about the phrase "not of yourself" and "lest every man should boast."

Certainly you didnt just cram this verse in your head to pass an AWANA handbook. It's meaning is ultra clear, yet rarely understood by IFBs
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I don't know any saved that hold the free will position that "boast," as you're trying to use this verse. They all acknowledge that without God there would have been no salvation and give him all the praise and glory. Again, you seem to love to misrepresent.
 
Ransom said:
When you use the term "free will," it has no coherent definition, so it's perfectly fair to say it doesn't exist.
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And neither does "Ransom" except in his own mind. ;)
 
I have not yet found this particular rule of the word, toutou, having to belong to a verb in any Greek grammar. The journal article was interesting, but I won't be convinced until it shows up in a grammar some day.

It is a simple pronoun. The idea that it must belong to a verb is strange.
 
AverageJoe said:
I don't know any saved that hold the free will position that "boast," as you're trying to use this verse. They all acknowledge that without God there would have been no salvation and give him all the praise and glory. Again, you seem to love to misrepresent.
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If salvation comes from your own natural faith, there would be cause for pride.
 
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