Salvation and Unreached Tribes

[Castor Muscular]

Are you saying some people get saved differently than others?

We all get saved the same way.  Jesus saves. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

[quote author=rsc2a]He didn't say knowledge about Jesus saves. He said Jesus saves.

Fine. Can you explain that?

What does that mean?

It means that maybe people can be following Him even of they don't know who He is.
[/quote]

Maybe.  HUGE maybe.  GARGANTUAN maybe.  This is a very dangerous position to hold for it opens the door to faith in general rather than faith in Jesus.  While I do believe God's Sovereignty allows Him to move unbelievers to act in accordance to His will (Take Nebuchadnezzar's invasion as an example), I do not believe that one will have faith in Christ without a knowledge that they have faith in Christ.

Seems this debate has taken on a Calvinist vs Free Will form.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Seems this debate has taken on a Calvinist vs Free Will form.

It's more like it has taken on a "what man must know or do" vs. "what Jesus/God does" form.  Jesus explains the difference here:

John 6:28 Then they said to Him,

 

[ALAYMAN]

...

Again, for another example, when the disciples asked Jesus, "Who, then, can be saved?"  Jesus responded, "WITH MAN, this [being saved] is impossible.  But with God, all things are possible."  So, then, there is nothing man can say or do or know that will bring salvation.  Salvation is entirely of God through Jesus.  Jesus saves.  Period.

Does the One who does the saving have any say in how they will bring about that salvation?

 

[Castor Muscular]

Does the One who does the saving have any say in how they will bring about that salvation?

THEY do not bring about that salvation. 

I know Romans 10:9, but the fact is that the expression one makes is evidence, not a causal act that brings about salvation.  See:

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Lots of people will say "Jesus is Lord" and they won't be saved, so this verse is about more than what it means to say the words.  You acknowledge -- FOR REAL -- that Jesus is Lord through the Holy Spirit, which has already taken residence in your heart.  It isn't the act of acknowledging Jesus as Lord that brings about salvation. 

At that point, God has already given you a new heart.  He has saved you.  See Deut.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Does the One who does the saving have any say in how they will bring about that salvation?

THEY do not bring about that salvation. 

I know Romans 10:9, but the fact is that the expression one makes is evidence, not a causal act that brings about salvation.  See:

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Lots of people will say "Jesus is Lord" and they won't be saved, so this verse is about more than what it means to say the words.  You acknowledge -- FOR REAL -- that Jesus is Lord through the Holy Spirit, which has already taken residence in your heart.  It isn't the act of acknowledging Jesus as Lord that brings about salvation. 

At that point, God has already given you a new heart.  He has saved you.  See Deut.

Nobody is disputing that Christ does the saving.  What is being discussed is if Christ has appointed a means of how He will save, and numerous Scriptures point to the fact that faith is required for salvation.  The jailer is only but one prominent passage that proves that belief/faith is required for salvation.  Christ does the saving, and he has declared the method by which he will do the saving, regardless of your position on the ordo salutis.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

For the 6000+ years that Native Americans lived in America without European contact, did they all die as unbelievers?

Can you find anything in the Bible to support your answer?

 

[Castor Muscular]

Nobody is disputing that Christ does the saving.  What is being discussed is if Christ has appointed a means of how He will save, and numerous Scriptures point to the fact that faith is required for salvation. 

This is very simple.  If:

1) Jesus does the saving

and

2) Faith is required for salvation

Then Jesus gives faith to the elect as part of saving them.  And this is what Scripture says.  "It has been granted to you not only to believe...etc.", for example.

 

[Castor Muscular]

For the 6000+ years that Native Americans lived in America without European contact, did they all die as unbelievers?

Can you find anything in the Bible to support your answer?

I don't believe the Bible addresses the Americas.  However, the scriptural fact remains that All the Father gives to Jesus shall come to Jesus.  So if any of those Native Americans were among the elect, the chosen to come to Jesus, then they came to Jesus. 

 

[christundivided]

For the 6000+ years that Native Americans lived in America without European contact, did they all die as unbelievers?

Can you find anything in the Bible to support your answer?

Native Americans are Gentiles just like anyone else that are not the natural seed of Abraham. Yes, the bible specifically reference Gentiles being without Hope and Without God in this world before the advent of Christ.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What do you think "without Hope" means?

The fact is, the old world that existed before the call of Abraham rejected God. The descendants of those that rejected God, "Gentiles", died without mercy and without Hope. They received the judgement of Sin which is eternal death.

I wish it was different and there were those who accepted God who were not the natural seed of Abraham. Even many of the seed of Abraham found the judgement of God.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Deu 32:20  And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This is a great illustration of Deuteronomy 28, 29, 30 and Romans, i.e., Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the utterance of God. 

I say "utterance" because the Greek is not "logos" and it makes no sense for it to mean "the written or preached word of God".  If the preached word of God gave faith, then Heb 4:2 would make no sense.  If the preached word of God gave faith, then they would have had faith to mix with the preached word. 

So the only logical interpretation would be, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when God says so."  God's enabling is required for faith.  The change that is necessary for salvation comes only from God.  "The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." 

When the word is not mixed with faith, that is not because man failed to respond with faith.  Man doesn't have it in him to have faith.  God gives it to them, or doesn't give it to them, according to His will.  The Jews did not gain faith from God's signs and wonders because "to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear." 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Read Acts 10.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him,

 

[rsc2a]

Read Acts 10.

There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him,

 

[christundivided]

Heb 4:2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This is a great illustration of Deuteronomy 28, 29, 30 and Romans, i.e., Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the utterance of God. 

I say "utterance" because the Greek is not "logos" and it makes no sense for it to mean "the written or preached word of God".  If the preached word of God gave faith, then Heb 4:2 would make no sense.  If the preached word of God gave faith, then they would have had faith to mix with the preached word. 

So the only logical interpretation would be, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when God says so."  God's enabling is required for faith.  The change that is necessary for salvation comes only from God.  "The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live." 

When the word is not mixed with faith, that is not because man failed to respond with faith.  Man doesn't have it in him to have faith.  God gives it to them, or doesn't give it to them, according to His will.  The Jews did not gain faith from God's signs and wonders because "to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear."

Sure man does.

Heb 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Give me one verse that says that God gives faith to someone. I know of only one verse that even begins to say such. Even then, its misunderstood and misapplied.

You're really are straining at what you believe about faith and hearing God's Word. You're trying to separate the Word of God from the those who or have proclaimed it and from the demand of God for man to believe IT in off his own choice.

1Co 14:36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

I agree with you that the Word of God is alive and has the power in of itself to create eternal life within mankind. Yet, the "mixing" of faith is about believing what one hears. This is fit perfectly with the explanation of Faith found in Hebrews 11:6.

Throw in... the "have they not heard"

Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Yes, only God can save. Yes, He alone has the power to save. Yet, don't ignore how He has declared and ordain that it take place.

 

[ALAYMAN]

This is a great illustration of Deuteronomy 28, 29, 30 and Romans, i.e., Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the utterance of God. 

I say "utterance" because the Greek is not "logos" and it makes no sense for it to mean "the written or preached word of God".  If the preached word of God gave faith, then Heb 4:2 would make no sense.  If the preached word of God gave faith, then they would have had faith to mix with the preached word. 

So the only logical interpretation would be, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when God says so." 

Simply put, you are foisting an interpretive scheme on the passage that is conceived by your theological bias.  It's a novel interpretation, but one not supported by any single other translation or paraphrase...

Romans 10:17 NAS
New American Standard
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 10:17 NIV
New International Version
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


Romans 10:17 ASV
American Standard Version
So belief [cometh] of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
 
Romans 10:17 BBE
Bible in Basic English
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 10:17 CEB
Common English Bible
So, faith comes from listening, but it's listening by means of Christ's message.

Romans 10:17 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.

Romans 10:17 RHE
Douay-Rheims
Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.

Romans 10:17 ESV
English Standard Version
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


Romans 10:17 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

Romans 10:17 GNT
Good News Translation
So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message comes through preaching Christ.

Romans 10:17 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Romans 10:17 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

 
Romans 10:17 KJV
King James Version
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:17 LEB
Lexham English Bible
Consequently, faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

Romans 10:17 NCV
New Century Version
So faith comes from hearing the Good News, and people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

Romans 10:17 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
So faith comes from hearing the message. And the message that is heard is the word of Christ.

Romans 10:17 NKJV
New King James Version
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Romans 10:17 NLT
New Living Translation
Yet faith comes from listening to this message of good news -- the Good News about Christ.

Romans 10:17 NRS
New Revised Standard
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.

Romans 10:17 RSV
Revised Standard Version
So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Romans 10:17 DBY
The Darby Translation
So faith then [is] by a report, but the report by God's word.

Romans 10:17 MSG
The Message
The point is, Before you trust, you have to listen. But unless Christ's Word is preached, there's nothing to listen to.


Romans 10:17 WBT
The Webster Bible
So then, faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:17 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 
Romans 10:17 TNIV
Today's New International Version
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Romans 10:17 WNT
Weymouth New Testament
And this proves that faith comes from a Message heard, and that the Message comes through its having been spoken by Christ.

Romans 10:17 WEB
World English Bible
So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:17 WYC
Wycliffe
Therefore faith is of hearing [Therefore faith by hearing], but hearing by the word of Christ.

 
Romans 10:17 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
so then the faith [is] by a report, and the report through a saying of God,

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Give me one verse that says that God gives faith to someone. I know of only one verse that even begins to say such. Even then, its misunderstood and misapplied. [/quote]

I know you only asked about one but here you go:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets,

 

[rsc2a]

This is a great illustration of Deuteronomy 28, 29, 30 and Romans, i.e., Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the utterance of God. 

I say "utterance" because the Greek is not "logos" and it makes no sense for it to mean "the written or preached word of God".  If the preached word of God gave faith, then Heb 4:2 would make no sense.  If the preached word of God gave faith, then they would have had faith to mix with the preached word. 

So the only logical interpretation would be, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when God says so." 

Simply put, you are foisting an interpretive scheme on the passage that is conceived by your theological bias.  It's a novel interpretation, but one not supported by any single other translation or paraphrase...

But who is doing the preaching? I (and Paul and I believe Castor) would argue that the Spirit is the one preaching to the heart of man.

 

[ALAYMAN]

But who is doing the preaching? I (and Paul and I believe Castor) would argue that the Spirit is the one preaching to the heart of man.

The progression in clear in this passage, and evident from others, that the agency of man is ordained of God to carry the gospel so that the word might be made real in the hearts of men, made effective via the Holy Spirit's enablement.

The Romans passage depicts Paul's usage of one of his favorite forms of argument, rhetoric.  The point is obvious...

(1)  How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
(2)  And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
(3)  And how shall they hear without a preacher?
(4)  And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

(1)

 

[rsc2a]

But who is doing the preaching? I (and Paul and I believe Castor) would argue that the Spirit is the one preaching to the heart of man.

The progression in clear in this passage, and evident from others, that the agency of man is ordained of God to carry the gospel so that the word might be made real in the hearts of men, made effective via the Holy Spirit's enablement.

The Romans passage depicts Paul's usage of one of his favorite forms of argument, rhetoric.  The point is obvious...

(1)  How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
(2)  And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
(3)  And how shall they hear without a preacher?
(4)  And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

(1)

 

[Castor Muscular]

Simply put, you are foisting an interpretive scheme on the passage that is conceived by your theological bias.  It's a novel interpretation, but one not supported by any single other translation or paraphrase...

Not at all.  It is supported by most translations, or simply by "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes] by the word of God". 

The critical portion of that verse is that "hearing comes by the word of God".  You can hear audible words and sounds, but you can't HEAR [understand, assimilate, use, be transformed by] anything without the word (whatever that may mean) of God. 

Now, we know that can't mean the written or preached word of God.  We have established from scripture that hearing the preached word of God does nothing unless it is mixed with faith.  So the common interpretation of that verse puts the cart before the horse.  One cannot assume that one gains faith by hearing the preached word of God if you can't benefit from the preached word of God without first having faith.  Therefore, this verse cannot possibly be interpreted as "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by hearing the preached word of God". 

But -- as it says in Deut, faith was impossible in spite of the great and amazing signs they saw because God had not yet given them ears to hear.  Aha.  The ability to HEAR [understand, assimilate, use, be transformed by] is something God gives, not something that comes from hearing the sounds of the right words. 

People simply misread this verse as if it says "Faith comes by hearing the word of God".  But that's not what it says.  It says faith comes by HEARING, but you can't HEAR except by the word of God.  Add to that the fact that the Greek for "word" here is "rhema" (which can be translated as utterance) and not "logos" and you have even more reason to believe this is not about the written or preached word of God. 

So I simply paraphrase it as one might in contemporary terms:  "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes when God says so."  I wouldn't expect any translation to use that kind of language, but it's not necessary anyway, if you simply understand the verse correctly in the first place.  "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes] by the word of God" says exactly the same thing.  It's just not as obvious.