Salvation and Unreached Tribes

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]So the question isn't whosoever believes, but WHY some people believe and some people do not.  "Whosoever" doesn't tell you why.  You need to look elsewhere in the Bible. [/quote]

You clearly don't understand systematic theology.

 

[ALAYMAN]

....

People simply misread this verse as if it says "Faith comes by hearing the word of God".  But that's not what it says.  It says faith comes by HEARING, but you can't HEAR except by the word of God.  Add to that the fact that the Greek for "word" here is "rhema" (which can be translated as utterance) and not "logos" and you have even more reason to believe this is not about the written or preached word of God. 

This is a distinction without a difference, similar to the agape, phileo--"do you love me" argument.  There's not a gnats bit of difference between the normal usage of rhema and logos.

So I simply paraphrase it as one might in contemporary terms:  "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes when God says so."  I wouldn't expect any translation to use that kind of language, but it's not necessary anyway, if you simply understand the verse correctly in the first place.  "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes] by the word of God" says exactly the same thing.  It's just not as obvious.

Not one commentator I've read, not one, has allowed for such an interpretation.  It's almost unanimously agreed upon that the thing in view which is spoken is the <preached> gospel.  You've continued to make some odd applications of this verse, undoubtedly forced by your predestinarian/Augustinian paradigm, but I'll say it again, that the issue of how a person comes to Christ (via faith through the word, even in a monergistic scheme) is not remotely controversial or questioned in evangelical history, calvinists included.

 

[ALAYMAN]

(1) And Jesus answered him,

 

[Castor Muscular]

(1) And Jesus answered him,

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So Paul was schizophrenic, not really knowing the Scriptures (some which you cited he even penned himself)? 

That is a great question. Most Christians probably don't really want to know the answer.

 

[christundivided]

I agree 100%.  The question isn't who he will save, but who comes to Him and why.  And he explains that in the previous verses.  All the Father gives Him SHALL come to Him.  That's who.  Nobody else need apply, because they won't even want to come to Him.

Yet, Acts 17 shows differently. You just ignore it in an attempt to focus on who you believe seeks God.

Then you are ignoring what the Bible says.  It tells you who seeks the Lord of their own will -- nobody.  Then it tells you why some people seek the Lord.  The fact that you BELIEVE this can happen to anyone doesn't change the text.  The fact that you BELIEVE this can happen to anyone doesn't make the text say that.  That's your personal belief.  And it goes against what the Bible teaches. 

No I'm not. You're butchering the verses you post while ignoring the ones I posted.

You're like the typical free-willer who cries, "Whosoever!  Whosoever!  That means anyone!"  But it doesn't.  I can say, "Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller."  That isn't anyone, that's only those people who are 6 feet tall or taller.  The question isn't whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller, but WHY some people are 6 feet tall or taller and some people are shorter. 

So the question isn't whosoever believes, but WHY some people believe and some people do not.  "Whosoever" doesn't tell
you why.  You need to look elsewhere in the Bible. [/quote]

And you sir are your typical "captive-willer" Calvinist that believes God just really loves them and a few like them. A person who believes God's will is always done and IT just happens THEY are right in the middle of God's will because God Himself put them their according to His GOOD PLEASURE...... all the while CHOOSING to reject others at the "GOOD PLEASURE" of His will. You must really feel special.

Do you believe that God must have saw something special in you to have chosen you over someone else?

Do I need to worry about my children not being part of the Elect chosen by God in eternity past? Should I be concerned if your own little world of beliefs are actually true?

You are ignoring "let him come". Does that phrase mean anything you?

AGAIN. I'll ask you about Acts 17. Will you ever deal with Acts 17 or are you too afraid to face the reality of the Scriptures.

Tell you what, lets have a debate just between you and I. We can let the forum community set the rules and surely we can find agreement on the format. The forum community can even vote on who wins. Care to take the challenge?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Some have accused me of being a Open Theist. I do not consider myself as such. My belief differ somewhat from Open Theism. Needless to say, I don't fit into your mold of what you think I am.

Open theism...heresy again. This one geared for the temporally challenged.

[/quote]

*crickets*

 

[Castor Muscular]

AGAIN. I'll ask you about Acts 17. Will you ever deal with Acts 17 or are you too afraid to face the reality of the Scriptures.

Reading comprehension.  You needz it.

I told you - it doesn't say what you think it says. 

 

[Izdaari]

Thank you for your replies.

To be clear, there is no way for someone to have a chance to go to Heaven unless they are taught by a Christian or somehow receive a copy of the Bible?

Wrong.  Jesus saves.  Bibles don't save.  Christians don't save.

This.

Of course, I am convinced someone can be Elect without having a having a clue who Jesus is (from a historical sense).

Really. How do you separate the "historical" Jesus from the message of the Gospel? Does the historical death, historical burial, and historical resurrection mean anything? Does "eye witness" mean anything to the message of the Gospel?

All of that happened, and it's all terribly important, the focal point of history even. But it happened and it remains important whether or not a particular person knows about it.

 

[Torrent v.3]

This question is mainly for people who believe salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ and trusting his finished work on the cross and resurrection as payment for sin.

I've always heard it taught that people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible or God were still held accountable for their sin. The main passage used to illustrate this is Romans 1 - specifically verses 18-20.

Some questions:
1. Do you believe that non-Christians who have never heard of Jesus or God or the Bible are still accountable for their sin?
2. How do you reconcile this with the fact that God is just?
3. If you use Romans 1 or some other similar passage to say that those people still have the record of nature or heaven to point them to God then why can't I be saved in the same way? (I.E. Why did Jesus die if people can be "saved" through looking at creation?)

I've been struggling with this for a few days now and I just can't reconcile these points.

This is a tough question. I have struggled with it for years. Clark Pinnock wrote in the book (The Openness of God, InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, 1994.) that thihs question really puzzled him, and then concluded that there was an openness in God. He ended up extending that openness to a sort of universalism.

I was rattled by his questions, but then read some of Jonathan Edwards expositions and miscellanies and was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that every person on earth will be held accountable for their response to the light that God shines on them.