Pastors....Serving Tables.....

[Ransom]

You know it.

Whatever you say, O Him What Knows Better Than the Apostles How to Run a Church.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

They said it wasn't their job to do. This is in direct contradiction to what their Master taught them.

They did not say that at all. They simply reasoned, and rightly so, that their time would be better spent and more beneficial to the church by giving themselves "continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word."

They didn't have time to go around and collect alms and distribute them to the poor and properly prepare to preach and teach God's Word. Remember, there were only 12 of them compared to the thousands they were serving.

I can argue from silence, too, and say that they definitely did both. They preached and they also helped with the poor. 

 

[christundivided]

They had a choice. They didn't have time to do both. They probably did have their hands in the food program for awhile, but it took away from other important things only they could do.

Isn't interesting the neglect happened to Greek speaking Jews? Have you stopped to consider this?

They had plenty of time. They were not going anywhere and they had long done both. It was nothing more than an excuse.

My pastor right now drives the truck on Thursdays to pick up food, then on Friday he looks after the tables when the community comes is to pick out food ... and he still visits the sick, prays, studies for the next message ... if the food program got completely in the way of his prayer, visiting sick, and preparation for the message on Sunday he would find wise men to take over ...

So your pastor is doing more than the apostles did at the time.

... actually just two weeks ago he had to cut a visit with a man who just learned he had stage 4 cancer short to run back to the Church to run the food program ...

Thank God for your pastor. Obviously if your food program was for Greek speaking Jews....and the apostles ran it..... It wouldn't have got such close attention.

 

[christundivided]

You know it.

Whatever you say, O Him What Knows Better Than the Apostles How to Run a Church.

Sure. They ran the church of Jerusalem into the ground.... or do you like to ignore history?

 

[christundivided]

You know it.

Whatever you say, O Him What Knows Better Than the Apostles How to Run a Church.

And missionary programs .... and basically anything else .... my mom was right, nobody likes a "know-it-all" ...

Do you say the same thing to your Pastor?

Does you Pastor know it all? Does he have something to say about everything? Why are you apply such a double standard toward me?

 

[christundivided]

They said it wasn't their job to do. This is in direct contradiction to what their Master taught them.

They did not say that at all. They simply reasoned, and rightly so, that their time would be better spent and more beneficial to the church by giving themselves "continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word."

Its a pity they never had this ephiony until someone had to complain. Do you think God "heads off" trouble. If the Holy Ghost would have provided absolute leadership.... then why did the neglect happen? Why did they have to form a committee and come up with a "group" decision?

They didn't have time to go around and collect alms and distribute them to the poor and properly prepare to preach and teach God's Word. Remember, there were only 12 of them compared to the thousands they were serving.

Nonsense. Paul had such time. Stephen had such time. Phillip had such time. They had the time.

I can argue from silence, too, and say that they definitely did both. They preached and they also helped with the poor.

Obviously they didn't. The dispute was valid. They neglect the Greek speaking Jews in the congregation.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I believe Peter was simply following the command that the Lord Himself gave to him:

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs." John 21:15 

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep." John 21:17

Peter was given a command by Jesus, and he went about to obey that command to the best of his ability:

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word." Acts 6:2-4

Peter even restated the command in his first epistle:

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; I Peter 5:2

So you actually believe this doesn't involve "serving tables"? Do you?

I believe a part of the ministry is "serving tables," yes. And I also believe the apostles were very responsible and careful to see that this aspect of the ministry was well-taken care of. They realized that they could not adequately serve like they needed to so they got some help to cover this area.

It is no different than a pastor hiring a music director to handle the music so he doesn't have to. Or, a youth director to see that the youth are properly served. Or, a treasurer to oversee the finances so he doesn't have to be personally involved. He oversees all of these areas, but he has solicited help to make it far more effective.

This is no different than the what the apostles did in Acts 6. 

 

[christundivided]

You know it.

Whatever you say, O Him What Knows Better Than the Apostles How to Run a Church.

And missionary programs .... and basically anything else .... my mom was right, nobody likes a "know-it-all" ...

Do you say the same thing to your Pastor?

Does you Pastor know it all? Does he have something to say about everything? Why are you apply such a double standard toward me?

My pastor isn't a "know-it-all" ... so I haven't said those exact words.

How do you define a "know-it-all"?

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Nonsense. Paul had such time. Stephen had such time. Phillip had such time. They had the time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but scripture doesn't record Paul, Stephen, or Phillip being in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of several thousand people at once.

If you're so dogmatic that they had the time to properly prepare to minister the Word of God and "serve tables," why don't you give us an idea of what their daily schedules were like? You seem to be able to read between-the-lines in Scripture; so, give us a brief comparison of Peter's daily schedule as compared to Stephen or Phillip. Let's see if they really had the time or not. 
 

 

[christundivided]

I believe a part of the ministry is "serving tables," yes. And I also believe the apostles were very responsible and careful to see that this aspect of the ministry was well-taken care of. They realized that they could not adequately serve like they needed to so they got some help to cover this area.

That is not the reason they gave for appointing Stephen, Phillip and others to do the work. The apostles said "it does not please us" or "its not fitting for us" to leave what they were doing and serve tables. That is what they said. They did not say it was a matter of time. Even it had been.... They had just as much time as Phillip and Stephen had. The ones that ended up doing the work they didn't do.

It is no different than a pastor hiring a music director to handle the music so he doesn't have to. Or, a youth director to see that the youth are properly served. Or, a treasurer to oversee the finances so he doesn't have to be personally involved. He oversees all of these areas, but he has solicited help to make it far more effective.

I'm glad you mentioned the word "effective". Often times when "pastors" do this.... they are cutting themselves out of the ministry.... and then they wonder why things "sneak" up on them.

Even so. We are not talking about a music director or a financial consultant. We are talking about one of the actual direct "ministries" of the early church. In fact, since some of you love "James" so much.... Maybe "James" will fit in good right here.....

Jas 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,

 

[christundivided]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but scripture doesn't record Paul, Stephen, or Phillip being in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of several thousand people at once.

You're wrong...

Act 6:5  and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

If you're so dogmatic that they had the time to properly prepare to minister the Word of God and "serve tables," why don't you give us an idea of what their daily schedules were like? You seem to be able to read between-the-lines in Scripture; so, give us a brief comparison of Peter's daily schedule as compared to Stephen or Phillip. Let's see if they really had the time or not. 

Again. They did not make it about time. They never said we don't have the time. Even so, they simply said they needed to give themselves to "word of God"....

Regardless of the schedule. They had time to do both.

If you really want to set forth a hypothetical schedule.... then go first.  Just what about the "word of God" was taking all of Peter's time?

 

[christundivided]

You know it.

Whatever you say, O Him What Knows Better Than the Apostles How to Run a Church.

And missionary programs .... and basically anything else .... my mom was right, nobody likes a "know-it-all" ...

Do you say the same thing to your Pastor?

Does you Pastor know it all? Does he have something to say about everything? Why are you apply such a double standard toward me?

My pastor isn't a "know-it-all" ... so I haven't said those exact words.

How do you define a "know-it-all"?

This: A person who obnoxiously purports an expansive comprehension of a topic and/or situation when in reality, his/her comprehension is inaccurate or limited.

Oh... So the reason your pastor isn't a know-it-all and I am..... is that he is smarter and more informed than me? Do you have a test to determine this? I'll play along.

 

[christundivided]

Wait. Remember the feeding of the 5,000 in John?

My Bible says "Jesus divided the bread and gave it to his followers, who gave it to the people"

Jesus did the same thing basically. Right?

Sure..... That same Jesus said it wasn't right for Him to leave the word of God and wash his disciples feet....

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but scripture doesn't record Paul, Stephen, or Phillip being in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of several thousand people at once.

You're wrong...

Act 6:5  and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Touche. I'll give you Paul. What about Stephen and Phillip? What was their responsibility in meeting the spiritual needs of thousands at a time? 

 

[christundivided]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but scripture doesn't record Paul, Stephen, or Phillip being in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of several thousand people at once.

You're wrong...

Act 6:5  and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

2Co 11:28  Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Touche. I'll give you Paul. What about Stephen and Phillip? What was their responsibility in meeting the spiritual needs of thousands at a time?

Its rather obvious that both Stephen and Phillip were seasoned ministers of the Gospel. Stephen preached one of... if not the.... greatest sermons recorded in the Scriptures. Just a few chapter over you will find that Philip goes down to Samaria and starts a revival. Preaching and performing miracles. I would call that "ministering" to the spiritual needs of others.

 

[christundivided]

No, he doesn't "obnoxiously purport" ...

But, I have no desire to play this game. You are what you are, and I am a fool to cast judgement since beams are in my own eye. So carry on ....

Can you give me an example? I seriously would like to know.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Its rather obvious that both Stephen and Phillip were seasoned ministers of the Gospel. Stephen preached one of... if not the.... greatest sermons recorded in the Scriptures.

I agree. A very important and needful sermon. Did you notice that he wasn't "serving tables" while he preached it?

Just a few chapter over you will find that Philip goes down to Samaria and starts a revival. Preaching and performing miracles. I would call that "ministering" to the spiritual needs of others.

Although not to thousands, I'll admit that these men were engaged in both. It is my opinion, and my last word on the subject, that Peter and the other apostles also did both. Peter, himself, gave us these words:

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, (I Peter 1:22)

But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (II Peter 1:5-9)

It sure sounds to me as if Peter had this idea of serving others down pretty good. I can only assume that the other apostles did as well.

Conclusion - They did both, as did Paul, Stephen, and Philip.

 

[.tim]

No, he doesn't "obnoxiously purport" ...

But, I have no desire to play this game. You are what you are, and I am a fool to cast judgement since beams are in my own eye. So carry on ....

Can you give me an example? I seriously would like to know.

I retract my judgement. Carry on.

 

[christundivided]

I agree. A very important and needful sermon. Did you notice that he wasn't "serving tables" while he preached it?

Sure. I agree. However, this is not the same as removing the responsibility. You know as well as I do, that the apostles did just this. They made it the work of what some today call  "deacons".

It sure sounds to me as if Peter had this idea of serving others down pretty good. I can only assume that the other apostles did as well.

Conclusion - They did both, as did Paul, Stephen, and Philip.

I see no reason to believe that the apostles, later change their minds..... and took to performing the service they said wasn't theirs to perform.

I won't belabor the point, but its apparent that the church at Jerusalem later became even more divided as the apostles entertain the beliefs of the judizers against the Gentiles. While there was a compromise struck. Its was just that. A compromise with no teeth. No semblance of truth. I'm personally convinced that if Paul had not been Divinely been called to the Gentiles, the church at Jerusalem would have neglected the Gentiles. If Philip and others hadn't been lead away from the local assembly, then the regions in the local area of Jerusalem would have suffered. Christianity would have become nothing more than an extension of the "Jewish religion".

 

[subllibrm]

I won't belabor the point ...

Too Late!!!  ;D