Pastors....Serving Tables.....

[christundivided]

I read an interesting response from TB in one of the thread and thought it would make a great topic to discuss....

Here is the quote...
The apostles didn't leave ministry of the word and prayer to o serve tables.

While I am certain that many pastors would agree with this...... I think the apostles made a horrible mistake. Just because you read something in the Scriptures that someone did....... doesn't mean that God approves of what they did. This includes the apostles. The apostles made many mistakes. Now, I am not condemning the apostles. However, if we do not want to make the same mistakes.....we should learn from their mistakes.

Let me tell you exactly why the apostles made a mistake in declaring they couldn't "leave the word and prayer to serve tables".

Lets review how our Lord washed the feet of His disciples.

Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17  If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Christ was teaching his disciples to be humble servants. That even though He had power of them, He did not exercise that power, but rather served them.

You see the apostles make a grave mistake in Acts 6:2. It began an downward spiral in which the apostles went from being servants among the people the those being served. The local church at Jerusalem became big business..... and it suffered because of it. They looked for compromises to keep people happy instead of telling the truth..... .and letting the chips fall were they may.

A pastor is first and foremost a servant to the people. A servant that isn't above anything... and I mean anything. The apostles had plenty of time to serve tables and pray.... PLUS minister in Word and Prayer. If our Lord had the time to wash the feet of the disciples..... They certainly had time to "serve tables".

Take for example the words of Paul....

1Co 4:9  For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Again, I am not throwing a stone. I probably would have done worse..... I do think we must recognize the failures..... even of the apostles. Or we are doomed to repeat their errors. This error is often repeated and repeated and repeated again..... The average pastor appoints deacons to do the work he should be doing himself. I assure you.... It has nothing to do with not having "enough time".

 

[Ransom]

Thank you for bringing this to our attention so promptly. Someone might have patterned the organization of their church after the apostolic teaching, by mistake, and then we'd be truly up the creek without a paddle!

 

[christundivided]

Thank you for bringing this to our attention so promptly. Someone might have patterned the organization of their church after the apostolic teaching, by mistake, and then we'd be truly up the creek without a paddle!

So you believe Pastors shouldn't serve tables.... Is that what you're saying?

The apostles also argued, lied, were hypocritical, and had to ask for forgiveness just like everyone else. Again. I am not bashing them. However, its silly to say they didn't make mistakes and that this isn't one of them.

 

[ALAYMAN]

What kind of interpretational hermeneutics do you use to determine where the Scriptures are merely repeating an error, versus where God is prescribing authoritative teaching?

 

[christundivided]

What kind of interpretational hermeneutics do you use to determine where the Scriptures are merely repeating an error, versus where God is prescribing authoritative teaching?

I read where Christ told his disciples (the apostles) to be servants. I read where He gave them an example of "serving one another". I then read how they refused to do this and appointed someone else to do it for them in Acts 6. They even went so far as to say "its not our job to serve tables" or "its not fit for us to serve tables".

Now... If wanted to be scholarly..... I could point out that this is consistent with a Hermetical view called theological analysis.

 

[ALAYMAN]

What kind of interpretational hermeneutics do you use to determine where the Scriptures are merely repeating an error, versus where God is prescribing authoritative teaching?

I read where Christ told his disciples (the apostles) to be servants. I read where He gave them an example of "serving one another". I then read how they refused to do this and appointed someone else to do it for them in Acts 6. They even went so far as to say "its not our job to serve tables" or "its not fit for us to serve tables".

Now... If wanted to be scholarly..... I could point out that this is consistent with a Hermetical view called theological analysis.

4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:


Oh that we could have more unity and fulness of the Spirit like those who were used of God to light the missionary spark that went round the world.

 

[christundivided]

4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:


Oh that we could have more unity and fulness of the Spirit like those who were used of God to light the missionary spark that went round the world.

Get a grip. The acceptance of the majority has never established absolute truth.

Its interesting that you interjected the approval the "Spirit" in your response? Why is that? There is no mention of the Spirit in the verses you posted????

Also, I would like to point out the men that were appointed to "serve tables".... Actually did what the apostles could not do or were unwilling to do. They served tables, gave themselves to pray, and the word of God. Especially Stephen and Phillip. God blessed Stephan and Phillip in their efforts.

Its obvious that the Grecians had a valid argument and the early church had issues. Issues of neglect from the apostles. Obviously the apostles preferred to help some in the early church and neglect others.

 

[Ransom]

So you believe Pastors shouldn't serve tables.... Is that what you're saying?

So you alone know better than Jesus' own chosen leaders, including Paul . . . is that what you're saying?

(My views are not at issue here, and will not be addressed one way or the other by me.)

I'll also note that CU's general tendency to ascribe idiocy to anyone who disagrees with him, now extends also to the apostles. It must be a wonderful thing to be a god unto oneself, right?

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I believe Peter was simply following the command that the Lord Himself gave to him:

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs." John 21:15 

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep." John 21:17

Peter was given a command by Jesus, and he went about to obey that command to the best of his ability:

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word." Acts 6:2-4

Peter even restated the command in his first epistle:

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; I Peter 5:2

 

[Ransom]

I believe Peter was simply following the command that the Lord Himself gave to him

If CU had bothered to read the chapter, he'd have seen Acts 6:1: "Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution."

In other words, the need for deacons was in response to the daily requirements of the church outgrowing the ability of the apostles to do both teaching and charity effectively. They were not willing to sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter, so they delegated the latter to make sure it was done.

Division of labour: a simple, biblical idea.

 

[christundivided]

So you believe Pastors shouldn't serve tables.... Is that what you're saying?

So you alone know better than Jesus' own chosen leaders, including Paul . . . is that what you're saying?

You're being silly. You've thrown more "morons" and "idiots" around in the FFF than anyone in history. You have no right to complain nor give it as an excuse not to deal with the issue at hand.

What do you mean by "I know better"....

Why are you playing such an impotent argument as this??? Show me were Christ told the apostles they "didn't have to server tables". I've proven that he told them the opposite.

 

[christundivided]

I believe Peter was simply following the command that the Lord Himself gave to him

If CU had bothered to read the chapter, he'd have seen Acts 6:1: "Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution."

In other words, the need for deacons was in response to the daily requirements of the church outgrowing the ability of the apostles to do both teaching and charity effectively. They were not willing to sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter, so they delegated the latter to make sure it was done.

Division of labour: a simple, biblical idea.

I have dealt with this very verse. Read again. You're one refusing to "read" something....

The apostles HAD NEGLECTED the widows. The charge was true. The very fact they attempted to remedy the charges is proof there was something ALREADY WRONG.

It had nothing to do with the "division of labor". Welll...... in some sense it did. THEY REFUSED to server tables. Something Stephen and Phillip did while praying and preaching the Gospel.

 

[christundivided]

If we were to agree that the Apostles made a mistake here ... where should we stop? Should I question all the words of Peter? Should I question John and what he wrote?

I'll trust the guys Jesus trusted and assume they did the right thing - anything else is to basically question God.

How does one deal with such arguments.........

Basically you are saying you can't accept anyone did something wrong because it leads to questioning everything someone does....

Well... that is good thing. A very GOOD THING. Have you ever heard of those at Berea?

 

[christundivided]

I believe Peter was simply following the command that the Lord Himself gave to him

If CU had bothered to read the chapter, he'd have seen Acts 6:1: "Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution."

In other words, the need for deacons was in response to the daily requirements of the church outgrowing the ability of the apostles to do both teaching and charity effectively. They were not willing to sacrifice the former for the sake of the latter, so they delegated the latter to make sure it was done.

Division of labour: a simple, biblical idea.

I have dealt with this very verse. Read again. You're one refusing to "read" something....

The apostles HAD NEGLECTED the widows. The charge was true. The very fact they attempted to remedy the charges is proof there was something ALREADY WRONG.

It had nothing to do with the "division of labor". Welll...... in some sense it did. THEY REFUSED to server tables. Something Stephen and Phillip did while praying and preaching the Gospel.

Does the text say that they refused? My boss has many tasks that he depends on others to perform ON HIS BEHALF since he doesn't have the time to do everything. Same thing here.

Does it say they didn't have time? Can you show me where its says they didn't have time? Stephen had time. Phillip had time.

I have already quoted their response. They said it wasn't their job to do. This is in direct contradiction to what their Master taught them.

What does you BOSS do when no one is around to do your job? Will he refuse to do what is necessary and good to complete the work?

 

[Ransom]

Now is the time at the FFF when we juxtapose . . .

You're being silly.

and

Well, you'll have to excuse Christundivided. He's in the fortunate position of being infallible - so much so, in fact, that no one can rightly disagree with him without being either ignorant or mentally defective.

I rest my case.

 

[christundivided]

If we were to agree that the Apostles made a mistake here ... where should we stop? Should I question all the words of Peter? Should I question John and what he wrote?

I'll trust the guys Jesus trusted and assume they did the right thing - anything else is to basically question God.

How does one deal with such arguments.........

Basically you are saying you can't accept anyone did something wrong because it leads to questioning everything someone does....

Well... that is good thing. A very GOOD THING. Have you ever heard of those at Berea?

But in this case we are talking about scripture and the very men who wrote scripture.

Next you will try and tell me Peter was condescending when he said, "I don't have any silver or gold for you. But I'll give you what I have. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, get up and walk!"

Whatever. I can't stop you from doing what you do.

So you think I would make such an argument? Whatever....

 

[christundivided]

Now is the time at the FFF when we juxtapose . . .

You're being silly.

and

Well, you'll have to excuse Christundivided. He's in the fortunate position of being infallible - so much so, in fact, that no one can rightly disagree with him without being either ignorant or mentally defective.

I rest my case.

Nonsense. You can't deal with issue. You're just making excuses.

Do you deny you're not the all time leader in "morons" and "idiots" in the forums?????

At least I'm not the one being coward and hiding behind "he'll call me names" defense. Coward. You've really gotten off your game.

 

[christundivided]

I believe Peter was simply following the command that the Lord Himself gave to him:

So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs." John 21:15 

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep." John 21:17

Peter was given a command by Jesus, and he went about to obey that command to the best of his ability:

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word." Acts 6:2-4

Peter even restated the command in his first epistle:

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; I Peter 5:2

So you actually believe this doesn't involve "serving tables"? Do you?

 

[Ransom]

Nonsense. You can't deal with issue. You're just making excuses.

Posting ridiculous opinions full of bombast and questioning the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you, does not entitle you to a serous rebuttal. I'm not pretending to deal with issue [sic]. You're merely a contrarian, nothing more. Why waste my time on a professional contradicter?

 

[christundivided]

Nonsense. You can't deal with issue. You're just making excuses.

Your ability to post bombastic rants in favour of ridiculous opinions does not entitle you to a serous rebuttal. I'm not pretending to deal with issue [sic]. I don't take you seriously enough, and I doubt very many others do, either.

What bombastic rants? I use the word "silly" one time in this thread and you want to talk about bombastic rants?

You're the worse in the history of the forums. You know it.