Mrs. Hyles and the kids

[Just John]

Were there not quite a few "embellishments" from Jack Hyles though really aside from his alleged affair?

What about the phony attendance numbers?

The phony salvation numbers?

The phony baptism numbers?

His defense of David when he knew better?

How many times did he make braggadocios statements of what he said when he really didn't say them? (I admittedly do not readily have any examples but I heard him make these alpha dog claims about some issues, kind of like Schaap said he told 20/20 about women in the church that became a youtube hit. I do not for one minute Schaap really said that. This is a standard among many MOG playing to the crowd. Hyles was likely no worse than most.

 

[RAIDER]

Were there not quite a few "embellishments" from Jack Hyles though really aside from his alleged affair?

What about the phony attendance numbers?

The phony salvation numbers?

The phony baptism numbers?

His defense of David when he knew better?

How many times did he make braggadocios statements of what he said when he really didn't say them? (I admittedly do not readily have any examples but I heard him make these alpha dog claims about some issues, kind of like Schaap said he told 20/20 about women in the church that became a youtube hit. I do not for one minute Schaap really said that. This is a standard among many MOG playing to the crowd. Hyles was likely no worse than most.

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

 

[Bravo]

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

I think we just weren't asking the questions in those days,.... But a very obvious one should be how does the new auditorium seat 7500 but the older much smaller sat only 500 less???

 

[RAIDER]

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

I think we just weren't asking the questions in those days,.... But a very obvious one should be how does the new auditorium seat 7500 but the older much smaller sat only 500 less???

I admit that I did have some major problems with Schaap's math.  When he first became pastor he seemed somewhat humble.  As time passed it seems like he had to get numbers to keep up with Dr. Hyles.  He started counting missionary numbers in his attendance.  Next, he started telling people that there were only 5000 (if I remember correctly) in attendance when Dr. Hyles died.

 

[tobytyler]

B.C.

Would you use the same logic regarding embellishments with Bro. Hyles' sermons?  Just curious.

Yes, I would.  If I were listening to Dr. Hyles preach and in his sermon I heard him tell obvious lies, I would have issues.

When I was growing up in the church, JH used to tell a story about how one time David would not eat his green beans and JH had to break his will. He concludes the story by saying that green beans are now David's favorite food. I heard this story many times and some of you older folks have also.

After I left the church, I returned for a visit - mostly to please family members that still attend. This was after the whole world knew about David and he had been banished from FBC for the 2nd time. Low and behold, JH told the same green bean story substituting Cindy into the story. My loved ones smiled and laughed as if they were hearing it for the first time. They acted as if the story had never been told about David.

Two possibilities. 1. David and Cindy had the exact same experience, or 2. JH lied because it was convenient to do so. Substituting Cindy's name allowed him to tell the story, look awesome as a parent and leader, and avoid the whole messy Dave reference.

I'm going with possibility number 2.

Many times, the story would end that David would go to neighboring houses to get more green beans because he loved them sooo much!  Major exaggerating?---YES!

 

[Bravo]

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

I think we just weren't asking the questions in those days,.... But a very obvious one should be how does the new auditorium seat 7500 but the older much smaller sat only 500 less???

I admit that I did have some major problems with Schaap's math.  When he first became pastor he seemed somewhat humble.  As time passed it seems like he had to get numbers to keep up with Dr. Hyles.  He started counting missionary numbers in his attendance.  Next, he started telling people that there were only 5000 (if I remember correctly) in attendance when Dr. Hyles died.

That's just it though, the new place is the constant, we know how many seats that are there, so I don't think the old one could hold 7000. And the big days in Bro Hyles day when we were young, we took those numbers at face value. We should've questioned,... Just like the 117% growth we were told in the last few years.

 

[patriotic]

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

I think we just weren't asking the questions in those days,.... But a very obvious one should be how does the new auditorium seat 7500 but the older much smaller sat only 500 less???

I admit that I did have some major problems with Schaap's math.  When he first became pastor he seemed somewhat humble.  As time passed it seems like he had to get numbers to keep up with Dr. Hyles.  He started counting missionary numbers in his attendance.  Next, he started telling people that there were only 5000 (if I remember correctly) in attendance when Dr. Hyles died.

That's just it though, the new place is the constant, we know how many seats that are there, so I don't think the old one could hold 7000. And the big days in Bro Hyles day when we were young, we took those numbers at face value. We should've questioned,... Just like the 117% growth we were told in the last few years.

The old pews were much closer together than any modern building codes would allow them to be placed in recent years.  (Husband is a contractor.  We deal with building codes ALL THE TIME.)  It was almost impossible to cross one's legs in the old auditorium, and I'm not all that tall.  More than one Sunday evening, after a long day on the bus route, my legs would be so cramped up as I could barely move them.  In addition, the pews were so packed that the literal 18 inches allowed per person per pew was usually reduced to about 15 inches. 

Were I not married to a contractor and builder and know much more than most men regarding building procedures and codes, my first trip to the new auditorium would have been filled with thoughts of wasted space.  Why, one could sit in the middle of the row and still get out with no problem and no one getting up for them.  That was impossible to do in the old auditorium.  I know.  My mom had some heart problems once while she was visiting a service once and had to leave.  (It was during Bro. Hyles' preaching too, and he never said a word or called us out.)  Five people had to stand and move for us to get out. 

We also had filled mezzanines and chairs in every aisle at the end of every pew-upstairs and downstairs. 

I am serious when I say, there were many times you could not switch cheeks when one side got numb. 

 

[Fresh Air]

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

I think we just weren't asking the questions in those days,.... But a very obvious one should be how does the new auditorium seat 7500 but the older much smaller sat only 500 less???

I several times heard Bro. Hyles answer, during Q and A, that the auditorium was built to seat 4400 before the balcony overhangs and mezzanine were added. He never gave a specific figure with the additions.

 

[RAIDER]

I have not heard a lot of questioning or criticism about the attendance, salvation, or baptism numbers when Dr. Hyles was pastor.  Schaap on the other hand.........

I think we just weren't asking the questions in those days,.... But a very obvious one should be how does the new auditorium seat 7500 but the older much smaller sat only 500 less???

I several times heard Bro. Hyles answer, during Q and A, that the auditorium was built to seat 4400 before the balcony overhangs and mezzanine were added. He never gave a specific figure with the additions.

There is no doubt that every inch of the old auditorium was used to the max.  I remember Sunday nights when you were afraid you couldn't find a seat.

 

[kaba]

TMI Patriot on the cheek comment!

 

[16KJV11]

I just think it's the more likely explanation. The possibility exists that both Cindy and Dave had the same experience but you would have thought that would have come up in the story. "Hey, this happened with multiple kids in my family."

Did you ever hear the story told both ways? If so, what did you think?

I actually don't remember hearing either one of them.  It seems like I remember Dr. Hyles talking about himself of one of the kids hating what he called "english peas".  After eating them for a period of time they became a favorite.

How about the rest of you Hackers?  Do you remember any of these stories?

I don't remember any vegetable stories, but I do remember him preaching more than once that Cindy would go soulwinning at the mall.  Maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

Unfortunately, I just don't trust what most IFB preachers say from the pulpit.  It may have something to do with Joe Combs being my Bible teacher.

P.S.  I hope nobody makes their kid sit at the table for hours until they eat their food.  Maybe it worked for you, but it didn't work for me.  I think most kids taste buds change as they get older.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I spent many an hour looking at and dried up piece of steak or liver that I did not want to eat e

 

[Just John]

I watched a video the other night from 1983 where Hyles said some guy came forward during the invitation who said he a plan to bring a gun to the platform during the invitation and shoot Hyles but fell under conviction during the sermon. "He had a contract for $65k to kill Hyles". Didn't he also say something along the lines of the FBI said his life was one of the most threatened in America"?

I'm not buying either one. Most of the people who have those problems do NOT talk about them publicly. And many leaders (Dr.'s) in the X'er world have this false macho schtick going on. Just my opinion. 

 

[Bull City Justice]

I watched a video the other night from 1983 where Hyles said some guy came forward during the invitation who said he a plan to bring a gun to the platform during the invitation and shoot Hyles but fell under conviction during the sermon. "He had a contract for $65k to kill Hyles". Didn't he also say something along the lines of the FBI said his life was one of the most threatened in America"?

I'm not buying either one. Most of the people who have those problems do NOT talk about them publicly. And many leaders (Dr.'s) in the X'er world have this false macho schtick going on. Just my opinion.

the incredible fact that grown people heard these tales and believed them is proof that 1)Hyles was a master puppet-master/communicator/swindler, 2)the human heart will stop at nothing in its search of something/someone to worship

 

[rsc2a]

I watched a video the other night from 1983 where Hyles said some guy came forward during the invitation who said he a plan to bring a gun to the platform during the invitation and shoot Hyles but fell under conviction during the sermon. "He had a contract for $65k to kill Hyles". Didn't he also say something along the lines of the FBI said his life was one of the most threatened in America"?

I'm not buying either one. Most of the people who have those problems do NOT talk about them publicly. And many leaders (Dr.'s) in the X'er world have this false macho schtick going on. Just my opinion.

*cough, cough, Ruckman, cough cough*

 

[Sherryh]

Most of Bro Hyles problems were his church people .........one night someone d rove through his front yard and tore it up.....

he did have a fear that someone was going to kill him...........

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Can I offer up another possibility? In Linda's TED talk, the portion everyone objects to is the 50,000 tithing members and the ownership of all the buildings. At one time, the church claimed membership of 50,000 but I doubt all of them were tithing if that number is even close to accurate (we have all seen IFB math at work). The ownership of the buildings part is a bit of an exaggeration legally but I'm not sure it is much of an exaggeration in practice. Was there anything about any building that wasn't or couldn't be controlled by JH? Was he ever turned down on a purchase of building request?

That isn't even the possibility I am speaking of. Has anyone here ever experienced stage fright? I have. I remember how facts and figures were so difficult to get right under those conditions. This is all my opinion, but in looking at her breathing pattern and the pauses she takes, it looks like she may be trying to steady herself. If that's true, she may have had great anxiety speaking in public. Linda was quite reserved and shy as a teen and usually those years are pretty formative.

Anyway, I don't doubt the gist of her story at all.

The church did claim large membership numbers.  Since everyone baptized is a member, and we never take members off the roll......  Still, she knows better than to claim that all of these were giving money to Bro. Hyles making him appear to be some mafia don or something to that effect.  The whole thing was filled with statements intended to paint the man as one who could easily be believed to have committed some great atrocities.

So, your argument is that she was nervous and thus came up with wild stories she knew were not true?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  The TED people are very good at prepping people for speaking.  I have been nervous when speaking at church about Christ and at the factory about HR initiatives.  However, preparation takes over and the sermon/speech goes on.  I would assume that the TED leaders do a better job of training and prepping speakers than HAC did (just start screaming truth! - sheesh :).

I did acknowledge that the home life was probably not what was portrayed. 

 

[qwerty]

A life coach that gets stage fright?

Now that is funny.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

B.C.

Would you use the same logic regarding embellishments with Bro. Hyles' sermons?  Just curious.

Yes, I would.  If I were listening to Dr. Hyles preach and in his sermon I heard him tell obvious lies, I would have issues.

When I was growing up in the church, JH used to tell a story about how one time David would not eat his green beans and JH had to break his will. He concludes the story by saying that green beans are now David's favorite food. I heard this story many times and some of you older folks have also.

After I left the church, I returned for a visit - mostly to please family members that still attend. This was after the whole world knew about David and he had been banished from FBC for the 2nd time. Low and behold, JH told the same green bean story substituting Cindy into the story. My loved ones smiled and laughed as if they were hearing it for the first time. They acted as if the story had never been told about David.

Two possibilities. 1. David and Cindy had the exact same experience, or 2. JH lied because it was convenient to do so. Substituting Cindy's name allowed him to tell the story, look awesome as a parent and leader, and avoid the whole messy Dave reference.

I'm going with possibility number 2.

Ah!  Illustration number 57!  (Pause for courtesy chuckle because we don't laugh when we think it's funny......)  Oh, and Patriotic, minus 4 HACker points to you - he would not eat the okra - he would eat both!

There is a difference here.  One misrepresents truth to destroy character.  The other misrepresents truth to give the ability to tell a story which illustrates some truth.  Yes, both misrepresent truth.  A different illustration should have been chosen.  However, I think it drastically different.  If the preacher were to invent a background about a Bible character to stress some point he was trying to make that could not be established with facts found by anyone else - I would have a problem.

I don't really know of any sermons that were wild embellishments, though some of the fish in his stories were probably not quite the trophies he claimed.

I am not certain he embellished numbers, though the minions most certainly did.  I think he reported what he was told.  Number counting has its problems at the sheeple level.  To earn the goal and receive notoriety, the prayer is rushed and the sinner not really saved, the numbers are reported errantly.  The leadership simply reports what they are told and really have no way to investigate.  Yep, HACkers misrepresent their numbers.

Bro. Hyles did believe his life was in danger.  He also claimed that he met a member of a Satanic cult on a plane who showed him his name on a list of people the Satanic cult was praying to Satan to kill.  He did have actual threats posed.  He did have his home set on fire at night with his children at home.  He had bulletproof glass put in the balcony and there was rumor about the pulpit having been bulletproofed.  He also had a mission man who claimed to have murdered before, offer to take out those threats.  .  How much of this was embellishment?  Hard to say.  I guess you could claim it was manipulation to get people overwhelmed with his wonder.  Either way it is supposition.  However, Linda's public claims were obviously false and made with intent to mislead.

I choose not to stay in a church where the pastor is intentionally misleading the people.  I recently abandoned my position at a church, and this was part of the reason.  I have grown weary of preachers making public proclamations that simply aren't true.  If you have to lie about yourself to get people to follow you, your not worth following.

 

[Just John]

B.C.

Would you use the same logic regarding embellishments with Bro. Hyles' sermons?  Just curious.

Yes, I would.  If I were listening to Dr. Hyles preach and in his sermon I heard him tell obvious lies, I would have issues.

When I was growing up in the church, JH used to tell a story about how one time David would not eat his green beans and JH had to break his will. He concludes the story by saying that green beans are now David's favorite food. I heard this story many times and some of you older folks have also.

After I left the church, I returned for a visit - mostly to please family members that still attend. This was after the whole world knew about David and he had been banished from FBC for the 2nd time. Low and behold, JH told the same green bean story substituting Cindy into the story. My loved ones smiled and laughed as if they were hearing it for the first time. They acted as if the story had never been told about David.

Two possibilities. 1. David and Cindy had the exact same experience, or 2. JH lied because it was convenient to do so. Substituting Cindy's name allowed him to tell the story, look awesome as a parent and leader, and avoid the whole messy Dave reference.

I'm going with possibility number 2.

There is a difference here.  One misrepresents truth to destroy character.  The other misrepresents truth to give the ability to tell a story which illustrates some truth.  Yes, both misrepresent truth.  A different illustration should have been chosen.  However, I think it drastically different.  If the preacher were to invent a background about a Bible character to stress some point he was trying to make that could not be established with facts found by anyone else - I would have a problem.

And another possibility..."Dr" Hyles embellishes the story to make himself look like such a smart father who knows best. After all, he did write Blue Denim and Lace to tell people how to raise their kids.

I don't really know of any sermons that were wild embellishments, though some of the fish in his stories were probably not quite the trophies he claimed.

I am not certain he embellished numbers, though the minions most certainly did.  I think he reported what he was told.  Number counting has its problems at the sheeple level.  To earn the goal and receive notoriety, the prayer is rushed and the sinner not really saved, the numbers are reported errantly.  The leadership simply reports what they are told and really have no way to investigate.  Yep, HACkers misrepresent their numbers.

From what I have read on this and other iterations of the FFF everybody knew that the numbers were being embellished. Are we to believe Jack didn't know it though? And to say "he just reported what he was told" is really kind of lame. Maybe he just wanted to "earn the goal and receive notoriety".

Bro. Hyles did believe his life was in danger.  He also claimed that he met a member of a Satanic cult on a plane who showed him his name on a list of people the Satanic cult was praying to Satan to kill.  He did have actual threats posed.  He did have his home set on fire at night with his children at home.  He had bulletproof glass put in the balcony and there was rumor about the pulpit having been bulletproofed.  He also had a mission man who claimed to have murdered before, offer to take out those threats.  .  How much of this was embellishment?  Hard to say.  I guess you could claim it was manipulation to get people overwhelmed with his wonder.  Either way it is supposition.  However, Linda's public claims were obviously false and made with intent to mislead.

IMO these are usually to bolster the importance of those whom are "threatened". And I'm sure it's pretty cool to have the coterie of bodyguards to do whatever needed at times.[/quote]

I choose not to stay in a church where the pastor is intentionally misleading the people.  I recently abandoned my position at a church, and this was part of the reason.  I have grown weary of preachers making public proclamations that simply aren't true.

Good for you.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

And another possibility..."Dr" Hyles embellishes the story to make himself look like such a smart father who knows best. After all, he did write Blue Denim and Lace to tell people how to raise their kids.

Um.....  No......  Blue Denim and Lace was not about child rearing.  It was more personal philosophy, Bible reasoning and prose and devotionals.  You must be thinking about How to Rear Children (or Infants or Teens).  Check your facts before you use them.

I don't really know of any sermons that were wild embellishments, though some of the fish in his stories were probably not quite the trophies he claimed.

I am not certain he embellished numbers, though the minions most certainly did.  I think he reported what he was told.  Number counting has its problems at the sheeple level.  To earn the goal and receive notoriety, the prayer is rushed and the sinner not really saved, the numbers are reported errantly.  The leadership simply reports what they are told and really have no way to investigate.  Yep, HACkers misrepresent their numbers.

From what I have read on this and other iterations of the FFF everybody knew that the numbers were being embellished. Are we to believe Jack didn't know it though? And to say "he just reported what he was told" is really kind of lame. Maybe he just wanted to "earn the goal and receive notoriety".

As an outsider looking in, this must be hard to understand.  However, those who understand the system get what I am saying.  Bro. Hyles would tell the minions he wanted to have a big day.  The minions would go to their ministries and challenge their underlings.  The underlings lay the pressure on the HACker.  The HACker needs to perform to get the notoriety and escape the scorn.  The HACker does not make up numbers, but does some fuzzy math and prays with people who did not really understand to get a count.  The count is turned in to the underling who reports to the minion who reports to the preacher.  Preacher reports the total number.  It is a flawed system.  I get it.  But especially in his latter years, the minions ran the place beyond his control.

Bro. Hyles did believe his life was in danger.  He also claimed that he met a member of a Satanic cult on a plane who showed him his name on a list of people the Satanic cult was praying to Satan to kill.  He did have actual threats posed.  He did have his home set on fire at night with his children at home.  He had bulletproof glass put in the balcony and there was rumor about the pulpit having been bulletproofed.  He also had a mission man who claimed to have murdered before, offer to take out those threats.  .  How much of this was embellishment?  Hard to say.  I guess you could claim it was manipulation to get people overwhelmed with his wonder.  Either way it is supposition.  However, Linda's public claims were obviously false and made with intent to mislead.

IMO these are usually to bolster the importance of those whom are "threatened". And I'm sure it's pretty cool to have the coterie of bodyguards to do whatever needed at times.

Like I said, you may be right.  However, you can't take away some of the real threats that actually happened.  Security developed after the arson at his home. 

Cool to have those guys around?  The most disrespected group of Barney Fife's ever assembled (and that's an insult to Barney Fife - this group made Barney look like 007)?  This group was incapable of getting hired by a real employer and got convinced they were performing a sacred mission of protecting their preacher by their scamming leader who got his jollies to a poster of the Little Mermaid and led his hench-dweebs (they certainly were not men) to be just as twisted. What exactly could this "coterie of bodyguards" do?  Now YOU sound like a HACker because only a real HACker had any respect for that group - and only a few of them!

I choose not to stay in a church where the pastor is intentionally misleading the people.  I recently abandoned my position at a church, and this was part of the reason.  I have grown weary of preachers making public proclamations that simply aren't true.

Good for you.