Is the label "KJVO" an insult?

FSSL said:
prophet... is your position different than Ruckman/Riplinger? Or do you just disagree with the manner by which they present the issue?
My position is different.

I believe the Translators  of the AV when they said they were diligently comparing and revising the former translations.

I enjoy reading the Wycliffe and Tyndale, Geneva, etc. , watching the progression that got us to the KJB.

I am grateful that the kJB has been regularly updated, and wondering when the next one will take place.

I take exception to Wescott and Hort, and their deception, and look skeptically on any versions translated from their stock.

I believe the the Word is God, whether bodily, as the Son, or written as the more sure word of prophecy. Hence  eliminating any need for "double inspiration".
"My words are spirit", by default, inspired.


I believe that the inferior versions are truth mixed with error, rather than a barrel of apples that went rotten because one apple in it was bruised.

I have yet to find a church that isn't doctrinally like an 'MV', truth and error present alike, so it's not like having a consensus version eliminates error. We are men.

I believe first and foremost that the KJB is the word of God, because hearing it produced faith in me that it was He, the Shepherd's Voice. 
And, contrariwise, in my early adult years, I rejected the MV's I was exposed to ,from within, as being confusing voices, long before I had ever been exposed to any wild-eyed zealot reasoning.

I read much on the subject (never read Ruckman, but I read Riplingers "New Age Versions" and got a migraine).

Bottom line is, in the following twenty years,  after the issue was settled for me, I heard many unscholarly attempts at defending the KJB, and precious few that made any sense.

Summarily: there is no "team" for me to join, in the versions race.
 
prophet said:
I believe first and foremost that the KJB is the word of God, because hearing it produced faith in me that it was He, the Shepherd's Voice. And, contrariwise, in my early adult years, I rejected the MV's I was exposed to ,from within, as being confusing voices, long before I had ever been exposed to any wild-eyed zealot reasoning.

Would you agree with Hyles on the idea that a person cannot be saved outside of the KJV? Or, would you say that a person cannot properly progress in sanctification without a KJV?
 
FSSL said:
Anyone else seeing a trend? KJVOs do not like to define terms. Why not?

Makes it easier to redefine terms to your advantage, of course. It's quite handy when you want to maintain your reputation as a word merchant.
 
FSSL said:
prophet said:
I believe first and foremost that the KJB is the word of God, because hearing it produced faith in me that it was He, the Shepherd's Voice. And, contrariwise, in my early adult years, I rejected the MV's I was exposed to ,from within, as being confusing voices, long before I had ever been exposed to any wild-eyed zealot reasoning.

Would you agree with Hyles on the idea that a person cannot be saved outside of the KJV? Or, would you say that a person cannot properly progress in sanctification without a KJV?
No. 
He didn't even agree with him on that.
There is enough truth in every version I've seen, to grasp the Gospel.
The name "JESUS" is there.

I have dealt with many people, who had not been exposed to the KJB, who had trouble sorting out some doctrines.
I showed them the wording in the KJB, and they understood how passages previously held as unrelated now melded.
Did they know the fundamental orthodox doctrines/stories, etc.?
Yes.

This is my anecdotal evidence, here, and that is all it is worth, but: to a man, they struggled with Eternal Security.
And, almost to a man, found rest from that struggle in the AV's wording.

Also, I have noted a big difference in helping addicts, who were raised on an MV., and especially those who were brainwashed into believing that the KJB was an inferior translation.

I wouldn't build a case on it, and don't need to,
I know why I think the kJV is better.

I just wish that someone would update it, and that they wouldn't get ostracized for it by the clowns who think there is magic in leaving it in 1853 , or 1769.
My fear is that the lost wolves, and buffoons who claim to own the issue now, would rally their koolaid kux klans against it, and it would be ignored by those who claim to be it's supporters.
Wasn't there an update done around the millenium mark,  in like North Dakota, that was resisted so bad it never made a market impact?

The masses of asses want the issue, not the LORD, I'm afraid.



 
Yes. The Millennium KJV. KJVO are not satisfied. They splinter and splinter and splinter. I believe they are looking to find their own piece of fame in that world.
 
FSSL said:
The Millennium KJV.

Simply an attempt to change a few words, which weakens the text (e.g. losing the stablish / establish distinction) and then slap on a dubious copyright claim along with a marketing program.  Not particularly relevant.

Steven Avery
 
Steven Avery said:
FSSL said:
The Millennium KJV.

Simply an attempt to change a few words, which weakens the text (e.g. losing the stablish / establish distinction) and then slap on a dubious copyright claim along with a marketing program.  Not particularly relevant.

Steven Avery
I didn't realize that they copyrighted it....
$$$$
 
I am KJVOALR. King James Version Only As A Last Resort. That is, I will use a KJV if I must, but only if it's the only Bible I have. I make an exception for Psalms, which read particularly well in the KJV, and for weird literary moods.
 
prophet said:
I didn't realize that they copyrighted it.... $$$$
Copyright Notice
The right to copy or reproduce the Third Millennium Bible® (TMB®), New Authorized VersionTM (NAVTM) or any part thereof in printed and/or electronic form is governed by this copyright notice... Deuel Enterprises Inc., Gary, SD
http://www.tmbible.com/copyrigh.htm


They claim a copyright, whether the text would stand up by going to court against a supposed infringement of their text is an interesting question.

Steven
 
Steven Avery said:
prophet said:
I didn't realize that they copyrighted it.... $$$$
Copyright Notice
The right to copy or reproduce the Third Millennium Bible® (TMB®), New Authorized VersionTM (NAVTM) or any part thereof in printed and/or electronic form is governed by this copyright notice... Deuel Enterprises Inc., Gary, SD
http://www.tmbible.com/copyrigh.htm


They claim a copyright, whether the text would stand up by going to court against a supposed infringement of their text is an interesting question.

Steven
Isn't the requirement somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 words?
 
prophet said:
Isn't the requirement somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 words?

There is no singular requirement.  Each case is different. 

Similarly with fair use.  No fixed number of words qualifies as an allowable amount that is to use from a copyrighted work.

A case involving Deuel would be interesting since their text is so much taken from the AV.  Then they claim that their decisions to make minor changes qualifies for a copyright.  If the AV were copyrighted that claim would be totally bogus, since they would have been infringing. How many changes to a public domain text would qualify for a copyright, when challenged,  is an interesting question.

"US copyright law requires extensive creative changes to a public domain text to allow a new claim of copyright."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/pc/


And I believe that statement is correct, and it is hard to see how the smallish Deuel changes could hold up as under copyright protection.  The copyright probably only would extend to the non-Bible-text elements, Preface, indexes, notes, etc.

Steven Avery
 
Steven Avery said:
They claim a copyright,

There are editions of the KJV printed in the United States that claim a copyright.

The digital reproduction of the 1611 edition of the KJV by Greyden Press [Columbus, Ohio] that is available from Greatsite.com has a copyright [c2000 by Greyden Press].
Its copyright asserts "no part of this publication may be reproduced or distributed in any form or by any means, or stored in a data base retrieval system, without prior written permission of the publisher."


KJV-only author Doug Stauffer claimed that “publishers cannot copyright the KJB” (One Book, p. 121). 
 
Steven Avery said:
If the AV were copyrighted

Are you suggesting that the KJV was not copyrighted and is not copyrighted anywhere?

KJV-only author David Cloud maintained that “the King James Bible was produced under the direct authority of the British Crown and is owned and ’copyrighted’ by the crown of England” (Faith, p. 584).
 
Hi,

logos1560 said:
There are editions of the KJV printed in the United States that claim a copyright.

Anybody can claim a copyright for anything they publish.  That is the point, a claim does not a valid protection make.  Placing a © is easy, winning a court case on the grounds that your work is an original expression is another matter.

logos1560 said:
The digital reproduction of the 1611 edition of the KJV by Greyden Press [Columbus, Ohio] that is available from Greatsite.com has a copyright [c2000 by Greyden Press]. Its copyright asserts "no part of this publication may be reproduced or distributed in any form or by any means, or stored in a data base retrieval system, without prior written permission of the publisher."
To keep it simple.  Anybody could use their work to help create another AV-1611 edition, allowing for the OCR problems. OCR or handcopy the text, put it in RTF or HTML and create your own AV-1611 edition.

However, if you simply copied their expression of the proprietary data file, and then used that data file for your output, you will be on sketchy ground as there is more than simply the AV text involved.


logos1560 said:
KJV-only author Doug Stauffer claimed that “publishers cannot copyright the KJB” (One Book, p. 121).
That is correct. 
While anybody can claim a copyright on the AV text, however the claim will be false.

Steven Avery
 
We sometimes confuse U.S. Copyright law with GBr's granted permission to publish.

The Crown granted both Oxford and Cambridge Universities the authority to print the AV.
Neither universty owns the ideas/words contained within, obviously, by default, because there are 2.
In a Monarchy, one must have permission, after all.

In the U.S. of course, a copyright recognizes ownership, rather than merely granting permission to print.

 
prophet said:
We sometimes confuse U.S. Copyright law with GBr's granted permission to publish.

The Crown granted both Oxford and Cambridge Universities the authority to print the AV.
Neither universty owns the ideas/words contained within, obviously, by default, because there are 2.
In a Monarchy, one must have permission, after all.

In the U.S. of course, a copyright recognizes ownership, rather than merely granting permission to print.

The actual fact is that the KJV had what amounted to the copyright of that day.  The copyright of that day existed more for the government and for the benefit of printers than for the authors or translators. John Tebbel wrote:  “There had been a copyright of sorts in England from 1518” (History of Book Publishing, p. 46). 

    James Paterson pointed out:  “The Crown and the patentees of the Crown have sometimes set up rights more or less amounting to a perpetual copyright, and sometimes resembling a monopoly” (Liberty of the Press, p. 282).  Paterson maintained that “courts have expressed confused views as to the origin of these exceptional rights” (Ibid.).  These rights are sometimes referred to as “the prerogative copyrights of the Crown of England.”  Walter Copinger noted that judges “have given it as their opinion, that the prerogative is founded on the circumstance of the translation of the Bible having been actually paid for by King James, and its having thus became the property of the Crown” (Law of Copyright, pp. 262-263).  Likewise, John Shortt pointed out that “Lord Mansfield regarded it as a mere right of property founded on the purchase of the translation by the King in the time of James I” (The Law, p. 48).  George Curtis wrote:  “Sir William Blackstone says, that the claim of the king to the exclusive printing of the English Bible rests upon the two grounds of original purchase, and of his being the head of the Church.  Lord Mansfield held it to be a mere right of property, the king having bought the translation.  The translation which the king was supposed to have bought, or to have had printed at his own expense, was that executed in the reign and under the superintendence of King James I” (Treatise on the Law of Copyright, pp. 117-118).     

    Robert Sargent, a KJV-only advocate, noted that Robert Barker paid 3,500 pounds for the copyright of the KJV and that Barker's firm held the rights to print the KJV until 1709 (English Bible:  Manuscript Evidence, p. 226).  The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church also pointed out that Robert Barker bought the final manuscript of the KJV (now lost) for 3,500 pounds, "which included the copyright" (p. 135).  Donald Brake asserted:  “In 1610 Barker had paid 3,500 pounds for exclusive printing rights for the King James Version” (Visual History of KJB, p. 163).  W. H. T. Wrede noted that Cantrell Legge, printer at Cambridge, attempted to print the 1611 KJV in 1614, but Robert Baker “claimed the sole right of Bible printing under his Patent” and prevented him from printing it (Short History, pp. 5-6).  Allister McGrath observed that "Barker was obliged to hand over the copyright to Bonham Norton in 1617 as financial security" and only regained control of it in 1629 (In The Beginning, p. 199).  Barker would end up in prison for debt.  Christopher Anderson quoted William Ball as writing in 1651 the following:  “I conceive the sole printing of the Bible and Testament with power of restraint in others, to be of right the propriety of one Matthew Barker, citizen and stationer of London, in regard that his father paid for the amended or corrected Translation of the Bible 3500 [pounds]:  by reason whereof the translated copy did of right belong to him and his assignees” (Annals, II, p. 384). 

    Theodore Letis, a defender of the Textus Receptus, wrote:  "This Bible [the KJV] had the Cum Privilegio ("with privilege") printed on it which meant that the Crown of England, as the official head of the state church, held the copyright to this Bible, giving permission only to those printers which the Crown had chosen" (Revival of the Ecclesiastical Text and the Claims of the Anabaptists, p. 29).  This “Cum pivilegio” is found on the title page for the New Testament in the 1611 edition, but it is found on the title page for the whole Bible in later KJV editions printed in 1613, 1614, 1615, 1617, 1618. 1619, etc.  David Cloud maintained that “the King James Bible was produced under the direct authority of the British Crown and is owned and ’copyrighted’ by the crown of England” (Faith, p. 584).

   
 
U.S. Copyright law is not comparable to Anglish law.

U.S. ---CR means you, the CR holder, own the ideas that you expressed on paper, and have exclusive right to publish your owned ideas for profit.

Trying to compare that to anything done in a Monarchy, is by default an apples to oranges comparison.
It should be beneath reasonably intelligent people to play at this level.
We have much to debate, but this foolery isn't part of it.

 
logos1560 said:
Steven Avery said:
If the AV were copyrighted

Are you suggesting that the KJV was not copyrighted and is not copyrighted anywhere?

KJV-only author David Cloud maintained that “the King James Bible was produced under the direct authority of the British Crown and is owned and ’copyrighted’ by the crown of England” (Faith, p. 584).

David Cloud is not KJVO in the sense that KJVO is described in this thread. He is firmly a TRonly man.
 
Citadel of Truth said:
David Cloud is not KJVO in the sense that KJVO is described in this thread. He is firmly a TRonly man.

What other English translations does David Cloud accept as the inspired word of God?
 
Ransom said:
Citadel of Truth said:
David Cloud is not KJVO in the sense that KJVO is described in this thread. He is firmly a TRonly man.

What other English translations does David Cloud accept as the inspired word of God?

If I read him correctly, Cloud doesn't accept any English translation as inspired, including the KJV.

If "King James Only" defines one who believes that the KJV was given by inspiration, I am not "King James Only." The King James Bible is a product of preservation, not inspiration. The Bible Version Question/Answer Database - pg. 8
 
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