Is it possible that Whitney Houston really is a born again Christian?

[Winston]

ReformedBeliever's first post to this thread.

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

I will accept Winston's statement, conceding that my comment on the intent of the thread may have been incorrect.

However, the thread spun in a predictable way. That direction became written in stone with ReformedBeliever's post.

There is a reason I generally stay out of the Calvinism debates. There is also a reason that there is a specific portion of the forum dedicated to that issue. (Aside: I foresee this debate permanently splitting US Baptists within the decade).

One more thing: I do not appreciate being accused of NOT UNDERSTANDING the Bible because my view differs from someone else's. (That is just a slight variation on being accused of not believing the Bible, as happened with some regularity on the 666 forum).

So, let me try and understand.  The reformed guy turned the thread to a Calvinism debate. You referenced Romans 9 and said that you think it means that every person on earth is a vessel for destruction?  Just trying to underrstand what you're saying.

I have heard and read what I think is every possible interpretation of those verses, and that is not one I have ever heard.

 

[Eliz553]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

This is exactly what I said. Context.

Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand Romans 9 and what that term means. I am not being arrogant, just trying to be biblical.

And I mean no offense to you Eliz553.  No personal attack, but I am all for a clear understanding of passages like Romans 9 that clearly speak to the issue of salvation.

Winston, you are the one who brought up Romans 9, and alleged that I do not understand Romans 9.

ReformedBeliever alleged that Whitney was a "vessel created for destruction".

With this post, I am truly DONE with this thread.

 

[Winston]

Winston, you are the one who brought up Romans 9, and alleged that I do not understand Romans 9.

ReformedBeliever alleged that Whitney was a "vessel created for destruction".

With this post, I am truly DONE with this thread.

You can say you're done, but I still don't get it.

The term "vessel of destruction" was used by Reformed guy saying maybe Whitney was one.  And that term is well known as coming from Romans 9.

You said

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

By saying that, you are implying that it is arrogant to not consider yourself a "Vessel of destruction" and that implies that everyone should consider themselves vessels of destruction.  I have never heard that interpertation.

I don't consider myself one, and I think I am on biblical ground. Romans 8.

Or maybe you just didn't know that that term came from Romans 9.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Because it's a false dichotomy.

I pray "Thy will be done" knowing that God is perfect, holy, just and merciful. I trust His direction (a Biblical definition of "faith") regardless of outcome. Yet, that doesn't mean I'm "praying people into Hell". I would desire that all would be saved, yet I have a greater desire: that God's will is accomplished (and it will be).

Analogy: I do not want to see my kids cry. I also want them to be obedient to their parents. Sometimes those desires conflict and the greater desire wins. In that case, my kids cry so that they can learn to be obedient.

Likewise, I desire to see everyone saved, but I more strongly desire to see God supremely glorified (and He will be). My desire to see God supremely glorified is not a desire to see others in Hell.

As I have stated on other posts...the world is not binary. People need to stop treating it as such.
[/quote]

In the supralapsarian view of double predestination, does God will that people go to hell prior to their ever coming into existence?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Because it's a false dichotomy.

I pray "Thy will be done" knowing that God is perfect, holy, just and merciful. I trust His direction (a Biblical definition of "faith") regardless of outcome. Yet, that doesn't mean I'm "praying people into Hell". I would desire that all would be saved, yet I have a greater desire: that God's will is accomplished (and it will be).

Analogy: I do not want to see my kids cry. I also want them to be obedient to their parents. Sometimes those desires conflict and the greater desire wins. In that case, my kids cry so that they can learn to be obedient.

Likewise, I desire to see everyone saved, but I more strongly desire to see God supremely glorified (and He will be). My desire to see God supremely glorified is not a desire to see others in Hell.

As I have stated on other posts...the world is not binary. People need to stop treating it as such.

In the supralapsarian view of double predestination, does God will that people go to hell prior to their ever coming into existence?
[/quote]

Possibly. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]In the supralapsarian view of double predestination, does God will that people go to hell prior to their ever coming into existence?


Possibly. 
[/quote]

If it is God's will that some will be predestined to hell and He is glorified in doing so,  then it logically seems requisite to be pleased when God sends folk to hell, and to pray that His will be done in such a manner.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]In the supralapsarian view of double predestination, does God will that people go to hell prior to their ever coming into existence?


Possibly. 

If it is God's will that some will be predestined to hell and He is glorified in doing so,  then it logically seems requisite to be pleased when God sends folk to hell, and to pray that His will be done in such a manner.
[/quote]

Or hope for the ultimate reconciliation of all things while still trusting in the goodness, justice and mercies of God regardless of outcome....

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Or hope for the ultimate reconciliation of all things while still trusting in the goodness, justice and mercies of God regardless of outcome....
[/quote]

[Assuming a supralapsarian perspective as true]  So you would hope/pray for something that you know to be contrary to God's divine decretive will?

 

[Hoppy]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Or hope for the ultimate reconciliation of all things while still trusting in the goodness, justice and mercies of God regardless of outcome....

[Assuming a supralapsarian perspective as true]  So you would hope/pray for something that you know to be contrary to God's divine decretive will?
[/quote]

You are one who looks for contention and controversy.

Paul speaks of you in Titus.

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,  knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Or hope for the ultimate reconciliation of all things while still trusting in the goodness, justice and mercies of God regardless of outcome....

[Assuming a supralapsarian perspective as true]  So you would hope/pray for something that you know to be contrary to God's divine decretive will?

You are one who looks for contention and controversy.

Paul speaks of you in Titus.

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.  Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,  knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
[/quote]

Maybe you should have taken Paul's advice and avoided this thread then, lest ye become like the same.

 

[Top]

I hope she was, but, I'm reminded of this verse...

Luk 6:44  For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Gill

Luke 6:44  For every tree is known by its own fruit,.... Good and bad preachers are known by their doctrines, the one being agreeable, the other disagreeable to the word of God; and good and bad men are known by their lives and conversations: the grace of God revealed to good men, and wrought in them, teaches them to live soberly, righteously, and godly; a holy life is the fruit of grace, and an evidence of it; and the wickedness that is in the heart of unregenerate men, and even the hypocrisy of formal professors, will show themselves in the common and ordinary course of their conversations:

She had more fruit than many preeeeechers I have known. 

Who are these two characters?  They look...freaky.