Is it possible that Whitney Houston really is a born again Christian?

[Marji]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

I SO agree with this.

I was just talking to a friend this afternoon about the whole "pride" issue everyone of us face.  Why is it so apparent in everyone else yet we can't recognize it in ourselves.  It's so disgusting sometimes.
No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

The belief is that all the unbelievers are vessels of destruction or dishonour and believers are the opposite. I did not say she was with certainly, but definitely all appearances pointed towards such. I brought up the point because often when the death of someone famous dies there is almost always sadness brought up about the fact that they might be in hell, but the taking comfort in the perfect judgment of God is often neglected while conversing.

I stand by my original comment. Obviously, you consider yourself to be on of those destined for heaven.

Arrogant. Very arrogant. As I already said, no wonder the world can't see Christ in some Christians.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Double predestination/Divine Reprobation of the kind that ReformedBeliever espouses is part and parcel of the fabric know as reformed theology (Toplady, Boettner, Pink, etc).

 

[rsc2a]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

Amen.

Double predestination/Divine Reprobation of the kind that ReformedBeliever espouses is part and parcel of the fabric know as reformed theology (Toplady, Boettner, Pink, etc).

A belief in double predestination ≠ a desire to see others in hell

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a ]
A belief in double predestination ≠ a desire to see others in hell
[/quote]

Can you flesh this out a bit, particularly in light of a supralapsarian view of predestination?  When a high calvinist prays that "God's will be done", and they know that God is glorified in the condemnation of the unrighteous (non-elect), then how is ReformedBeliever's view askew (*if* supralapsarianism is proper theology)?

 

[ReformedBeliever]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

The belief is that all the unbelievers are vessels of destruction or dishonour and believers are the opposite. I did not say she was with certainly, but definitely all appearances pointed towards such. I brought up the point because often when the death of someone famous dies there is almost always sadness brought up about the fact that they might be in hell, but the taking comfort in the perfect judgment of God is often neglected while conversing.

I stand by my original comment. Obviously, you consider yourself to be on of those destined for heaven.

Arrogant. Very arrogant. As I already said, no wonder the world can't see Christ in some Christians.

So from what I gather it is arrogant to have confidence that I know that I have eternal life? (1 John 5:13), or is it arrogant to say that one (who shows by their fruit that they do not believe on the Son of God) does not have eternal life?

Do you believe it is arrogant to state that someone went to heaven when they died? If not, why is it arrogant to state that someone went to hell? Perhaps the real issue is only things deemed negative are arrogant, which could be a result of humanistic thinking, depending on the reasons behind it.  Also note I did not say definitely, but allured to the strong possibility based on the fruit.

 

[ReformedBeliever]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

"I would that all men are saved" - Jesus

Good night, I've never heard of someone saying they didn't wish someone was saved!

This brings up a whole debate, obviously I don't believe that Jesus wants everyone to be saved. I also believe that salvation is entirely of the Lord, therefore if God wanted everyone to be saved they would be. Man (dead in sins, only does evil continually, does not seek after God, does nothing righteous, a child of wrath, of the devil, etc.) is unable to save himself, he is completely helpless, blind and lost and is unable to come to God on his own. The Father must draw the sinner to salvation.

If God's sovereignty and man's helplessness in salvation is understood, then the next logical step is to understand the rest of the debate.

I would point you to this article ( http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/allmeansall.htm ) in reference to the all word.

 

[Winston]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

The belief is that all the unbelievers are vessels of destruction or dishonour and believers are the opposite. I did not say she was with certainly, but definitely all appearances pointed towards such. I brought up the point because often when the death of someone famous dies there is almost always sadness brought up about the fact that they might be in hell, but the taking comfort in the perfect judgment of God is often neglected while conversing.

I stand by my original comment. Obviously, you consider yourself to be on of those destined for heaven.

Arrogant. Very arrogant. As I already said, no wonder the world can't see Christ in some Christians.

I consider myself as one of those who is bound for heaven.  A day came in my life where Jesus became a reality. He, the eternal son of God, became a man in the womb of the virgin Mary. he was born, submitted to God's law, never sinned, died a sinner's death, for my sins,  and rose from the grave. Paul said that if I believed in him, I would have eternal life, and that the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.  I put my faith in him and God promised me eternal life.  If that is arrogant, then I humbly submit to your definition.

 

[Eliz553]

FTR I think a person can give a testimony of having been saved without being arrogant. (BTW I didn't need a lesson in the definition of being saved).

I continue to consider it arrogance to believe that "I" was created by God as honorable, while most of the rest of the world was created by God as dishonorable, fit only to split hell wide open.

One more thing: This board has a forum specifically for the Calvinism debate.

 

[Winston]

FTR I think a person can give a testimony of having been saved without being arrogant. (BTW I didn't need a lesson in the definition of being saved).

I continue to consider it arrogance to believe that "I" was created by God as honorable, while most of the rest of the world was created by God as dishonorable, fit only to split hell wide open.

One more thing: This board has a forum specifically for the Calvinism debate.

You said it is arrogant to consider yourself destined for heaven. That has nothing to do with Calvinism.

 

[Eliz553]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

This is exactly what I said. Context.

 

[Winston]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

The belief is that all the unbelievers are vessels of destruction or dishonour and believers are the opposite. I did not say she was with certainly, but definitely all appearances pointed towards such. I brought up the point because often when the death of someone famous dies there is almost always sadness brought up about the fact that they might be in hell, but the taking comfort in the perfect judgment of God is often neglected while conversing.

I stand by my original comment. Obviously, you consider yourself to be on of those destined for heaven.

Arrogant. Very arrogant. As I already said, no wonder the world can't see Christ in some Christians.

And you said exactly this.

It is  not arrogant to consider myself destined for heaven.

 

[Miller]

FTR I think a person can give a testimony of having been saved without being arrogant. (BTW I didn't need a lesson in the definition of being saved).

I continue to consider it arrogance to believe that "I" was created by God as honorable, while most of the rest of the world was created by God as dishonorable, fit only to split hell wide open.

One more thing: This board has a forum specifically for the Calvinism debate.

This is a common misrepresentation of the doctrines of grace (commonly referred to as Calvinism.) We recognize that God is sovereign in all things including salvation. That is not arrogance. I realize that my salvation is wholly dependent upon Him. For whatever reason, He chose to save me. Even when I had no love or desire for Him and had no desire whatsoever to choose Him. How does God choose? Who knows, He has not revealed that method to us. All I know is that at one point I was a filthy, rotten sinner incapable of coming to God on my own and He looked down upon me with love, mercy, and compassion. He picked me up out of the miry clay, and placed me upon the solid Rock of Jesus Christ. He established my goings. This is completely consistent with God's actions in the past. Why did God choose the nation of Israel? Were they any better than the other nations around them? No. He chose them simply because for some reason He wanted to. Did the other nations around Israel think it unfair? It falls within the realm of possibility just as there are those today who feel that God's dealings with mankind concerning salvation are unfair. The fact of the matter is that God did not have to choose any nation to be His people just as today He does not have to choose anyone for salvation. If God had followed that plan though He would never have had a people called out for Him. If God had not chosen Israel, no other nation could have said, "Hey God, here we are. We think we are going to be your special people upon the earth." If God had not chosen out who He was going to save nobody would have been able to say, "Hey God, here I am. I think I am going to be one to call upon you for salvation." If God did not choose, then all of mankind would die lost.

I do not find that position to be arrogant. What I find to be arrogant is the position that I held for many years previously. "Wow, I am so glad  that I am a Christian. I am so happy that when I heard the Gospel that I had the intelligence, sense, presence of mind (whatever you want to call it) to accept Christ. Too bad not everyone who hears the Gospel is as smart or sane as I am."

Eliz, I am not picking on you. I hope that my reputation would preclude you from thinking that. I am not trying to persuade you and I realize that we may never agree on the method of salvation. That's fine. I just wanted to point out that Calvinism is not seen as arrogance by those who hold to that doctrinal position, nor does it corner the market on arrogance.

 

[Eliz553]

There's more than enough arrogance to go around, unfortunately.

 

[Winston]

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

Incredibly arrogant. Obviously you don't consider YOURSELF to be a "vessel of destruction". People who say these things never do.

No wonder the world looks at us and cannot see Jesus in us.

This is exactly what I said. Context.

Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand Romans 9 and what that term means. I am not being arrogant, just trying to be biblical.

And I mean no offense to you Eliz553.  No personal attack, but I am all for a clear understanding of passages like Romans 9 that clearly speak to the issue of salvation.

 

[Bob H]

I have the strong feeling that this thread was started with a particular implication.

Winston is fairly new but I didn't get that take. But that's just me. I just trying to figure out who was the main one who hi-jacked this thread into a calvinist debate 

 

[Winston]

I have the strong feeling that this thread was started with a particular implication.

Winston is fairly new but I didn't get that take. But that's just me. I just trying to figure out who was the main one who hi-jacked this thread into a calvinist debate 

I did not hijack it.  And Calvinism is so far from my mind it is funny.  I didn't appreciate the hijacking either.  It was a serious question. I watched the funeral, at least most of it, and I seriously think she may be a believer who just fell into the world's trap of money and fame.

 

[Eliz553]

ReformedBeliever's first post to this thread.

Do I know whether Whitney was a Christian? Nope, but based on her fruit there is room for much doubt.  Do I hope she converted if she wasn't? Not necessarily, as perhaps God made her to be a vessel of destruction to send to hell where He would be glorified.

I will accept Winston's statement, conceding that my comment on the intent of the thread may have been incorrect.

However, the thread spun in a predictable way. That direction became written in stone with ReformedBeliever's post.

There is a reason I generally stay out of the Calvinism debates. There is also a reason that there is a specific portion of the forum dedicated to that issue. (Aside: I foresee this debate permanently splitting US Baptists within the decade).

One more thing: I do not appreciate being accused of NOT UNDERSTANDING the Bible because my view differs from someone else's. (That is just a slight variation on being accused of not believing the Bible, as happened with some regularity on the 666 forum).

 

[Gina B]

Why wouldn't it be possible? Like someone else already said, it is possible to sin while you are saved. I've never met anyone who hasn't although some definitely go farther than others.

I loved her voice from the start. I am sorry she is gone. I hope that she is now safe, happy, and free in the arms of our loving Lord, free from the chains on this earth that so easily wrap themselves around the best of our intentions.

 

[bruinboy]

I hope she was, but, I'm reminded of this verse...

Luk 6:44  For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Gill

Luke 6:44  For every tree is known by its own fruit,.... Good and bad preachers are known by their doctrines, the one being agreeable, the other disagreeable to the word of God; and good and bad men are known by their lives and conversations: the grace of God revealed to good men, and wrought in them, teaches them to live soberly, righteously, and godly; a holy life is the fruit of grace, and an evidence of it; and the wickedness that is in the heart of unregenerate men, and even the hypocrisy of formal professors, will show themselves in the common and ordinary course of their conversations:

She had more fruit than many preeeeechers I have known. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a ]
A belief in double predestination ≠ a desire to see others in hell

Can you flesh this out a bit, particularly in light of a supralapsarian view of predestination?  When a high calvinist prays that "God's will be done", and they know that God is glorified in the condemnation of the unrighteous (non-elect), then how is ReformedBeliever's view askew (*if* supralapsarianism is proper theology)?
[/quote]

Because it's a false dichotomy.

I pray "Thy will be done" knowing that God is perfect, holy, just and merciful. I trust His direction (a Biblical definition of "faith") regardless of outcome. Yet, that doesn't mean I'm "praying people into Hell". I would desire that all would be saved, yet I have a greater desire: that God's will is accomplished (and it will be).

Analogy: I do not want to see my kids cry. I also want them to be obedient to their parents. Sometimes those desires conflict and the greater desire wins. In that case, my kids cry so that they can learn to be obedient.

Likewise, I desire to see everyone saved, but I more strongly desire to see God supremely glorified (and He will be). My desire to see God supremely glorified is not a desire to see others in Hell.

As I have stated on other posts...the world is not binary. People need to stop treating it as such.