Is extravagance sinful.

[subllibrm]

What part of love of money is involved when I let my eyes linger too long on the backside of a lady other than my wife?

Umm, are you thinking of how much of your money it would take to get your wife's back side tuned up?

Or how much money the other women spent to get hers tuned up?

Or how much money the other woman charges ... er, nevermind.

There has got to be the love of money involved in that evil somehow because the KJV says so.  :

 

[subllibrm]

What part of love of money is involved when I let my eyes linger too long on the backside of a lady other than my wife?

Lust is an unholy desire. By no means is that limited to sex.

???

That answered his question about as well as my bowling ball dices carrots.

 

[rsc2a]

The $1500 dollar suit thing was just an example.  I didn't want to limit the conversation to whether or not it is appropriate for pastors to wear $1500 suits nor did I mean to suggest that pastors should live in poverty.  Our church takes care of me and I live at around the average level of our congregants.  I'm grateful for that.
I've just been around a lot of Christians that think "dressing to the nines" is some kind of high Christian virtue, when the opposite seems true in scripture.

Like CU said, it's a heart question. Why is the individual dressing to the nines? Scripture doesn't say dressing up fancy is wrong. The high priests were all kinds of decked out. Scripture say dressing up in such a way to inappropriately draw attention to yourself is wrong.

Just like all the other extravagance questions...the answer is "it depends". Sometimes it's appropriate to drop $10k on a party that lasts a few hours...sometimes not. Sometimes it's appropriate to spend a couple hundred bucks on dinner for two...sometimes not. Sometimes it's appropriate to own a fancy house...sometimes not. Sometimes its....

 

[Sherryh]

What you do with money is the key...

 

[Reformed Guy]

This is one that I've never heard preached about but seems to be taught in the NT.  (many would argue that non-extravagance is the meaning of modest and James seems to deal with this in his critique of the rich man.). What's your take?  Is it appropriate for a preacher to wear $1500 suits?  Just looking for your thoughts here. Scripture to back them up would be awesome too.

Plopping down $1500 for a suit isn't necessarily sinful, but it could be.  There is no scripture that directly states one way or the other, but application can be made from passages dealing with stewardship, modesty, pride and heart issues.

It could be a good investment.  A $1500 suit could outlast several $500 ones.  I dunno, because I don't have a lot of experience with suit-buying, but as a general rule I do try to buy quality clothing (and I do buy very little) that will last for years.  I have things that I "paid too much for" 15 years ago that still give good service now.

But if it's done more to reflect an image, it's probably a problem.  I wouldn't be concerned to know that my pastor had 2-3 quality, expensive suits that were of a classic, subdued style.  I would be concerned if it were apparent that he had a closet-full of flashy, expensive outfits that betrayed a vain pride.

 

[Reformed Guy]

Let me add, I wouldn't expect a carpenter from my church to limit himself to power tools of the Black & Decker variety, nor cheap hammers from Big Lots, to support himself in his trade.  He has a job to do, and quality tools are of help to him.  And quality tools are expensive.

The same principles apply here both ways.  While it's not sinful to make investments in quality tools, it could be sinful if the carpenter spends a lot of dough on these for show.  If pride of ownership takes precedence over the usefulness of an expensive item, there is a problem.  Likewise for the preacher.  A good suit can be a useful tool for his job.  Lines can be crossed, but as others have said,  these are lines that primarily come from issues of the heart.

 

[christundivided]

I challenge you to find a pastor in the Bible who lived in luxury.

Abraham lived in luxury.  Solomon lived in luxury.  I'm sure David was very comfortable, and I'm sure there are many more. 

Don't look at me, though.  What little I have is falling apart.

Php 4:12  I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

But read Php 3 - Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Besides that, what about the beatings and being left for dead and the imprisonments and the execution? 

We are to be content (full) even in our need.

You can't ignore what he wrote by appealing to another time when he didn't "abound".

 

[Fresh Air]

Yes...now do you want to answer the question? Respectfully-called idiots want to know.

Sorry, I misunderstood the direction you were going. My answer is that there is a difference in scripture between sin and evil. The love of money isn't the root of all sin but it is the root of all evil. Having said that, I will disagree but won't quarrel with your contention that the love of money is the roof of all KINDS of evil. I had thought you were basically saying that there is nothing wrong with the love of money. That I would quarrel with...

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I challenge you to find a pastor in the Bible who lived in luxury.

Abraham lived in luxury.  Solomon lived in luxury.  I'm sure David was very comfortable, and I'm sure there are many more. 

Don't look at me, though.  What little I have is falling apart.

Php 4:12  I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

But read Php 3 - Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Besides that, what about the beatings and being left for dead and the imprisonments and the execution? 

We are to be content (full) even in our need.

You can't ignore what he wrote by appealing to another time when he didn't "abound".

Let context be king over content.

Everywhere in all things both abounding and suffering.  In times of need, I am content, or abounding.  In times of abundance, I am needful, or not haughty in my abundance.  It is the attitude of contentment and giving that is proper.  Also, Paul, when Saul, abounded in position, power, pride and we assume possessions.  Paul, after his conversion, counted those as loss.  We see a lesson that a Christian should be busy about his Father's work, not living in gluttony while his spiritual siblings suffer.  Too many IFB NADD "pastors" are striving for position, power, pride and possessions rather than walking away from these to serve and live among their brethren.

I believe that God chooses to give some people financial success, that they may have the ministry of helps.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

If one were to look at what the NT church did with their weekly collection of funds, he would find two categories: benevolence and missions.

One would thus assume that churches today would spend at least the majority of their funds on benevolence and missions.  HOWEVER......  These two are most normally the smallest portion of a church budget and frequently non-existent in a church budget.

 

[T-Bone]

If it's good enough for TBN it's good enough for me! 8)

The Palace of Versailles OR TBN Headquarters?

 

[christundivided]

I challenge you to find a pastor in the Bible who lived in luxury.

Abraham lived in luxury.  Solomon lived in luxury.  I'm sure David was very comfortable, and I'm sure there are many more. 

Don't look at me, though.  What little I have is falling apart.

Php 4:12  I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

But read Php 3 - Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Besides that, what about the beatings and being left for dead and the imprisonments and the execution? 

We are to be content (full) even in our need.

You can't ignore what he wrote by appealing to another time when he didn't "abound".

Let context be king over content.

Everywhere in all things both abounding and suffering.  In times of need, I am content, or abounding.  In times of abundance, I am needful, or not haughty in my abundance.  It is the attitude of contentment and giving that is proper.  Also, Paul, when Saul, abounded in position, power, pride and we assume possessions.  Paul, after his conversion, counted those as loss.  We see a lesson that a Christian should be busy about his Father's work, not living in gluttony while his spiritual siblings suffer.  Too many IFB NADD "pastors" are striving for position, power, pride and possessions rather than walking away from these to serve and live among their brethren.

I believe that God chooses to give some people financial success, that they may have the ministry of helps.

I never ignored the context. I have rejected being haughty. I don't think we are far apart in what we are each saying.

Let me give you an example. I have done pretty well in this life. I've been blessed more than I ever desired. I have more than any one in my family's past. It has caused problems among my family members. I can tell you. I am no different now than I was when I didn't have much of anything. Yet, it is assumed by many.... that because I have some money.... I'm "stuck up". My sister felt this way for years. I never treated her any different and I helped her when she needed help. Not every time she'd ask for it. I don't wear $1500 suits but I do buy nice clothes only when they are on sale. Usually at a 60% or more discount. I haven't got past the pinto dinners every night of the week and the tarter and dumplings because we couldn't afford "chicken" or we had killed this years allotment already.

So please..... don't judge me by my success. I know that any moment, I could lose it all. I try not to trust in my wealth/monies. I try to trust God. Yet, you shouldn't judge me by my appearance. I know what it is to abound and to suffer loss. I've been through both. I try to be content in each. 

 

[christundivided]

If one were to look at what the NT church did with their weekly collection of funds, he would find two categories: benevolence and missions.

One would thus assume that churches today would spend at least the majority of their funds on benevolence and missions.  HOWEVER......  These two are most normally the smallest portion of a church budget and frequently non-existent in a church budget.

While I agree.... can I add something else?

I bothers me that the average missionary seeks deputation funding for years before he ever gets on the mission field. Many of these same missionaries go to countries or areas in which they could legitimately get a job and work like everyone else for living while evangelizing said area. A few years back, it seemed like my area was full of missionaries seeking a free ride. I'm not saying its like that all the time and in every instance. Yet, it does happened.... just my penny.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I challenge you to find a pastor in the Bible who lived in luxury.

Abraham lived in luxury.  Solomon lived in luxury.  I'm sure David was very comfortable, and I'm sure there are many more. 

Don't look at me, though.  What little I have is falling apart.

Php 4:12  I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

But read Php 3 - Php 3:7  But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Php 3:8  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Besides that, what about the beatings and being left for dead and the imprisonments and the execution? 

We are to be content (full) even in our need.

You can't ignore what he wrote by appealing to another time when he didn't "abound".

Let context be king over content.

Everywhere in all things both abounding and suffering.  In times of need, I am content, or abounding.  In times of abundance, I am needful, or not haughty in my abundance.  It is the attitude of contentment and giving that is proper.  Also, Paul, when Saul, abounded in position, power, pride and we assume possessions.  Paul, after his conversion, counted those as loss.  We see a lesson that a Christian should be busy about his Father's work, not living in gluttony while his spiritual siblings suffer.  Too many IFB NADD "pastors" are striving for position, power, pride and possessions rather than walking away from these to serve and live among their brethren.

I believe that God chooses to give some people financial success, that they may have the ministry of helps.

I never ignored the context. I have rejected being haughty. I don't think we are far apart in what we are each saying.

Let me give you an example. I have done pretty well in this life. I've been blessed more than I ever desired. I have more than any one in my family's past. It has caused problems among my family members. I can tell you. I am no different now than I was when I didn't have much of anything. Yet, it is assumed by many.... that because I have some money.... I'm "stuck up". My sister felt this way for years. I never treated her any different and I helped her when she needed help. Not every time she'd ask for it. I don't wear $1500 suits but I do buy nice clothes only when they are on sale. Usually at a 60% or more discount. I haven't got past the pinto dinners every night of the week and the tarter and dumplings because we couldn't afford "chicken" or we had killed this years allotment already.

So please..... don't judge me by my success. I know that any moment, I could lose it all. I try not to trust in my wealth/monies. I try to trust God. Yet, you shouldn't judge me by my appearance. I know what it is to abound and to suffer loss. I've been through both. I try to be content in each.

There is a difference between pastors and laymen.  Gluttony is sin.  However, God chooses to allow some to have abundance of things so that they might have the ministry of helps.  If you have worked and earned and are able to live comfortably while helping others, God bless you.  If you claim to have dedicated your life to serving others in ministry, but live in extravagance while others you are "serving" are suffering, shame on you.

 

[bruinboy]

My take is that some people spend entirely too much time looking for things that might be sinful.

I actually agree with you.

I've heard some people say that extravagance is sinful and immodest.  I think that is what Amish & Mennonites teach.  I've read some baptist bloggers who say the same thing.

I wear suits to church most of the time (mine come from yard sales and clearance racks), but the more I think about it lately "dressing to the nines" just doesn't feel appropriate.  For one, I pastor in a decidedly blue collar town and two I don't think it goes along with humility towards a Holy God.

I still think we should wear respectable clothes to the church house.  I wouldn't go to church in my sweats,  I'm just questioning whether we go too far with the dressing up thing.

Amen brother.  God looks at the inside, not the outside. Most of the disciples were fisherman, they didn't dress up to serve our Lord. They were humble servants.

 

[christundivided]

I never ignored the context. I have rejected being haughty. I don't think we are far apart in what we are each saying.

Let me give you an example. I have done pretty well in this life. I've been blessed more than I ever desired. I have more than any one in my family's past. It has caused problems among my family members. I can tell you. I am no different now than I was when I didn't have much of anything. Yet, it is assumed by many.... that because I have some money.... I'm "stuck up". My sister felt this way for years. I never treated her any different and I helped her when she needed help. Not every time she'd ask for it. I don't wear $1500 suits but I do buy nice clothes only when they are on sale. Usually at a 60% or more discount. I haven't got past the pinto dinners every night of the week and the tarter and dumplings because we couldn't afford "chicken" or we had killed this years allotment already.

So please..... don't judge me by my success. I know that any moment, I could lose it all. I try not to trust in my wealth/monies. I try to trust God. Yet, you shouldn't judge me by my appearance. I know what it is to abound and to suffer loss. I've been through both. I try to be content in each.

There is a difference between pastors and laymen.  Gluttony is sin.  However, God chooses to allow some to have abundance of things so that they might have the ministry of helps.  If you have worked and earned and are able to live comfortably while helping others, God bless you.  If you claim to have dedicated your life to serving others in ministry, but live in extravagance while others you are "serving" are suffering, shame on you.

What a man earns at his own hand.... is his. It has nothing to do with you or what you think about how he should spend it. Those that gather wages from church wages are a different story. They should represent whomever is supporting them and hold to whatever standard they may seem appropriate (to some degree).

I don't know what you consider "extravagance" but you're should reevaluate your methodology when it comes to establishing what is or isn't "appropriate" about how "someone else" spends their monies.

Do you believe in one social class of peoples? I hope you realize that the poor should always help themselves to the best of their ability. Many times you can't "give" a person out of poverty.... and you can't endlessly help someone that continually wastes what's given to them. While I am for the poor and will always be for the poor, its a very real fact that peoples in the early church abused the liberal giving in the early church. This is the very reason that  Paul wrote.

2Th 3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Even Christ knew many took advantage of his generosity when He said....

Joh 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I never ignored the context. I have rejected being haughty. I don't think we are far apart in what we are each saying.

Let me give you an example. I have done pretty well in this life. I've been blessed more than I ever desired. I have more than any one in my family's past. It has caused problems among my family members. I can tell you. I am no different now than I was when I didn't have much of anything. Yet, it is assumed by many.... that because I have some money.... I'm "stuck up". My sister felt this way for years. I never treated her any different and I helped her when she needed help. Not every time she'd ask for it. I don't wear $1500 suits but I do buy nice clothes only when they are on sale. Usually at a 60% or more discount. I haven't got past the pinto dinners every night of the week and the tarter and dumplings because we couldn't afford "chicken" or we had killed this years allotment already.

So please..... don't judge me by my success. I know that any moment, I could lose it all. I try not to trust in my wealth/monies. I try to trust God. Yet, you shouldn't judge me by my appearance. I know what it is to abound and to suffer loss. I've been through both. I try to be content in each.

There is a difference between pastors and laymen.  Gluttony is sin.  However, God chooses to allow some to have abundance of things so that they might have the ministry of helps.  If you have worked and earned and are able to live comfortably while helping others, God bless you.  If you claim to have dedicated your life to serving others in ministry, but live in extravagance while others you are "serving" are suffering, shame on you.

What a man earns at his own hand.... is his. It has nothing to do with you or what you think about how he should spend it. Those that gather wages from church wages are a different story. They should represent whomever is supporting them and hold to whatever standard they may seem appropriate (to some degree).

I don't know what you consider "extravagance" but you're should reevaluate your methodology when it comes to establishing what is or isn't "appropriate" about how "someone else" spends their monies.

Do you believe in one social class of peoples? I hope you realize that the poor should always help themselves to the best of their ability. Many times you can't "give" a person out of poverty.... and you can't endlessly help someone that continually wastes what's given to them. While I am for the poor and will always be for the poor, its a very real fact that peoples in the early church abused the liberal giving in the early church. This is the very reason that  Paul wrote.

2Th 3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Even Christ knew many took advantage of his generosity when He said....

Joh 6:26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Read my statement again.  We are in agreement.  I would distinguish between a pastor and a business professional.  Still, I would hope that a Christian to whom God has given the gift of helps would use that gift in the service of the Lord, much as a teacher should use his gift in the service of the Lord.

Agreed - you can't give a person out of poverty.  This does not mean that one who is given the gift of helps should not use this gift for the furtherance of the Gospel or for the help of the saints.

I am not a socialist.  However, Ruth was a gleaner - she was allowed to take food for which she did not pay.  The NT church provided food for the widows indeed - women who could not otherwise earn money for sustenance.  The NT church took collections to help those who had lost possessions to the government because of their refusal to worship the emperor.  Please consider:  When the Holy Spirit filled the Christians in the church at Jerusalem, Acts 4 states: ...neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common...Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the hings that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.  What I see is God giving people the ability to help people.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]What a man earns at his own hand.... is his. It has nothing to do with you or what you think about how he should spend it. Those that gather wages from church wages are a different story. They should represent whomever is supporting them and hold to whatever standard they may seem appropriate (to some degree). [/quote]

Those who earn wages from a church are still earning it (sometimes).  And they shouldn't necessarily represent whomever is supporting them. Perhaps they make better investment decisions. Perhaps they moonlight for extra money.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.

 

[myeyesareopen]

Along these lines, something I notice all the time in my IFBx circle...

I didn't grow up churched, or saved, or in a Christian home. So for the first quarter century of my life, I was exposed to none of the mores of the IFB crowd.

When I got saved and immersed into an IFBx lifestyle, I tried to learn the mores of the group so I could be accepted.

One thing I picked up on quickly is that apparently, one should not really have anything nice. If one does have something nice, one should be very, very apologetic for having it and should have a good explanation for why one has something so nice.

>"Is that a new dress?"
>(hangs head and gives a sheepish half smile) "Yes, it is. You see, my grandmother was on her deathbed and she knew I'd never had a new dress, since I of course only shop at the thrift store. She said it was her dying wish for me to have a nice, new dress to wear in her remembrance."

If the explanation is good enough, it 'passes' with a minimum of judgmental clucking on the part of others not so blessed.

I've never seen this guilt over having anything nice in any other circle of people. Perhaps the origin of the guilt is well-intended. We know we are not supposed to be selfish or gluttonous or covetous...and it is sure much easier to not covet when our neighbor has nothing we desire...so if we all keep ourselves and our peers down, then we can all be humble and spiritual and get along just fine.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]What a man earns at his own hand.... is his. It has nothing to do with you or what you think about how he should spend it. Those that gather wages from church wages are a different story. They should represent whomever is supporting them and hold to whatever standard they may seem appropriate (to some degree).

Those who earn wages from a church are still earning it (sometimes).  And they shouldn't necessarily represent whomever is supporting them. Perhaps they make better investment decisions. Perhaps they moonlight for extra money.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.
[/quote]

I do see a responsibility to live within the "expected norms" of individual churches social structure. When I said "to some degree", I was thinking more along the lines of what you mentioned. While pastors are servants, they are not puppets. Pastors and church members don't always have to agree on every little thing. They should mutually respect each others right to be different and yet be "right with God".