If not for Dave Hyles.............

[RAIDER]

what would Dr. Hyles' legacy look like?

There are many opinions of Jack Hyles on the FFF.  For the most part, those that did not attend HAC/FBCH are very critical.  Many of them have heard nothing but the negative.  There is a bit of a mixture of opinions from those who attended HAC/FBCH.  Much of the criticism begins and ends with Dave Hyles.  It is obvious to the wide majority that Dave was doing wrong while on staff at FBCH.  It has also become obvious that Dr. Hyles knew of this wrong and did not handle it properly.  This is a major issue.

For FFF discussion purposes let's remove Dave Hyles from the equation.  Let's say there was never a Dave Hyles.  What would the discussions about Jack Hyles look like?  I'm sure there would still be those who have nothing but negative to say, but what would the general consensus be?  What would Dr. Hyles' legacy be? 

 

[Bravo]

Not quite on point but,...

Oddly enough I was thinking about Dave Hyles yesterday. I began to wonder where it all started with him? Was it a girlfriend? An older woman? Dad gone so much? When did he start down this road?

 

[RAIDER]

Not quite on point but,...

Oddly enough I was thinking about Dave Hyles yesterday. I began to wonder where it all started with him? Was it a girlfriend? An older woman? Dad gone so much? When did he start down this road?

We know that the time Dr. Hyles was home was minimal.  I think Dr. Hyles actually thought he had his home in order.  Obviously, not the case.  I'm not sure where it started, possibly as a teen boy.  I have a feeling he was extremely sneaky. 

 

[Vince Massi]

In the first years of HAC, Dr. Hyles' sermons were magnificent. But from the very first day, HAC was founded on deceit.

I can only guess, but I think that eventually the corruption would have caught up with him.

 

[cast.sheep]

A bit off topic....but Dave Hyles is pretty much the reason we came to Hyles-Anderson in 1980.  We had been to a couple of Youth Conferences where he was in charge.  I had never heard anyone speak like Jack Hyles and Dave Hyles.  As a young teenager, I thought it was amazing.  They were so interesting and kept my attention.  We were both new Christians and it seemed like Mecca. 

I know I keep saying it, but those who came for 4 years and left don't really understand the magnitude of manipulation and control that those of us who stayed decades did.  Had we left after four years I do not believe I would have seen the negative so strongly.

Anyway, it's hard to imagine what the place would have been like without them.  It's such a tangled web that you can't just take one strand out. 

 

[RAIDER]

In the first years of HAC, Dr. Hyles' sermons were magnificent. But from the very first day, HAC was founded on deceit.

I can only guess, but I think that eventually the corruption would have caught up with him.

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

 

[Vince Massi]

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Not telling us that they were unaccredited.

Making us call the college president "Dr. Billings," when he had purchased his doctorate from a diploma mill.

Making a bus mechanic named Al Waddel a teacher, so he wouldn't tell people that Jim Vineyard had grabbed him by the throat and slammed him against the wall.

And I'm only talking about the first day.

 

[RAIDER]

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Not telling us that they were unaccredited.

Making us call the college president "Dr. Billings," when he had purchased his doctorate from a diploma mill.

Making a bus mechanic named Al Waddel a teacher, so he wouldn't tell people that Jim Vineyard had grabbed him by the throat and slammed him against the wall.

And I'm only talking about the first day.

If you go to a college and don't know whether they are accredited or not, it is your fault.

If Billings earned his doctorate or if it was an honorary doctorate, it is still a doctorate.

Can't comment on the third one.

 

[Fresh Air]

If not for Dave Hyles.............

...Bro. Hyles' legacy would look the same for this reason: Pride ran rampant in him for a lengthy period, and pride always brings destruction. If it wasn't Dave Hyles bringing the destruction it would have been someone or something else. God resists pride. He attacks it wherever He finds it. Pride was the problem. Dave Hyles was the judgment.

 

[bgwilkinson]

In the first years of HAC, Dr. Hyles' sermons were magnificent. But from the very first day, HAC was founded on deceit.

I can only guess, but I think that eventually the corruption would have caught up with him.

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Here is a possibility that I studied in ethics classes in college.

It is called Consequentialism. It is an ethical theory that holds that the consequences of ones actions are the ultimate basis for any judgement on whether one's actions are right or wrong.

Commonly expressed as "the ends justify the means".

If you ever asked Bro. Hyles if he believed that, he would tell you that he based his beliefs on his mother's  Bible.

However, his actions did not agree.

Maybe that is the thing that animated Bro. Hyles.

In practice he based things he did on how well they turned out. Did he achieve his objective?

How many souls were saved? How many sermons were preached? Did he get his way? Did he win?



Example, his confrontations with Edward C. Minas, who was a long time member and major financier in FBCH.

Mr. Minas did not like what was happening with all the wild kids that were coming to the church every Sunday.

Bro. Hyles did not agree with Mr. Minas.

So Bro. Hyles demonized Mr. Minas, without cause or reason, other than he wanted his own way.

All Bro. Hyles wanted was to run the bus ministry.

He got his way. Bro. Hyles was so proud of his victory over Mr. Minas, not so in his latter years when he was having second thoughts and remorse over his actions.



He was so proud of his victory for the bus kids, at the expense of many long time members of FBCH.

Mr. Minas and many others, the legacy monied families, left the church and started a new church on South Hohman Ave.

Yes Bro. Hyles split the church to get his way, but it was ok since he had won.

He stated many times, in sermons, "I ain't never lost".  It seemed, all he really cared about was getting his way and winning.

The methods used to get there are having their negative impacts and results that are still felt today.

The lies and deceit from Bro. Hyles early years in Hammond are plaguing us today.

We need a church-wide turning back to God and repentance from past sins while confessing and admitting them openly.


As always this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Bravo]

And yet accused Billy Graham of doing the very same thing, "the end (souls saved) justified the means".

 

[BALAAM]

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Not telling us that they were unaccredited.

Making us call the college president "Dr. Billings," when he had purchased his doctorate from a diploma mill.

Making a bus mechanic named Al Waddel a teacher, so he wouldn't tell people that Jim Vineyard had grabbed him by the throat and slammed him against the wall.

And I'm only talking about the first day.

Vince, if you went to hac as a starry eyed high school kid I will forgive you. If you went to hac as an older person and didn't know that hac was unaccredited then you are a twit. (probably a twit anyway) Any older man worth his set of balls would stand up to Jim Vineyard and take whatever he had coming to him but stand up nevertheless. (I know you didn't)

And this is why after years you have absolutely no credibility. You lamented that Vineyard was nothing but a gang leader bully; But, you went to work for him anyway. And when questioned about it you take the pious high-road and claim that it is solely because of your humility and submission to the 'will of God'.  What a bunch of bs!! IMHO!!!

 

[Bruh]

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Not telling us that they were unaccredited.

Making us call the college president "Dr. Billings," when he had purchased his doctorate from a diploma mill.

Making a bus mechanic named Al Waddel a teacher, so he wouldn't tell people that Jim Vineyard had grabbed him by the throat and slammed him against the wall.

And I'm only talking about the first day.

If you go to a college and don't know whether they are accredited or not, it is your fault.

If Billings earned his doctorate or if it was an honorary doctorate, it is still a doctorate.

Can't comment on the third one.

??? : You make it really hard sometimes Raider. 

 

[fishinnut]

As in most areas of life the "What If's" will kill you.

No matter how anyone tries, history cannot be rewritten. :

As my 2 year old granddaughter (for some reason) says, "Let it go!"

 

[bgwilkinson]

In the first years of HAC, Dr. Hyles' sermons were magnificent. But from the very first day, HAC was founded on deceit.

I can only guess, but I think that eventually the corruption would have caught up with him.

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Here is a possibility that I studied in ethics classes in college.

It is called Consequentialism. It is an ethical theory that holds that the consequences of ones actions are the ultimate basis for any judgement on whether one's actions are right or wrong.

Commonly expressed as "the ends justify the means".

If you ever asked Bro. Hyles if he believed that, he would tell you that he based his beliefs on his mother's  Bible.

However, his actions did not agree.

Maybe that is the thing that animated Bro. Hyles.

In practice he based things he did on how well they turned out. Did he achieve his objective?

How many souls were saved? How many sermons were preached? Did he get his way? Did he win?



Example, his confrontations with Edward C. Minas, who was a long time member and major financier in FBCH.

Mr. Minas did not like what was happening with all the wild kids that were coming to the church every Sunday.

Bro. Hyles did not agree with Mr. Minas.

So Bro. Hyles demonized Mr. Minas, without cause or reason, other than he wanted his own way.

All Bro. Hyles wanted was to run the bus ministry.

He got his way. Bro. Hyles was so proud of his victory over Mr. Minas, not so in his latter years when he was having second thoughts and remorse over his actions.



He was so proud of his victory for the bus kids, at the expense of many long time members of FBCH.

Mr. Minas and many others, the legacy monied families, left the church and started a new church on South Hohman Ave.

Yes Bro. Hyles split the church to get his way, but it was ok since he had won.

He stated many times, in sermons, "I ain't never lost".  It seemed, all he really cared about was getting his way and winning.

The methods used to get there are still having their negative impacts and results that are still felt today.

The lies and deceit from Bro. Hyles early years in Hammond are plaguing us today.

We need a church-wide turning back to God and repentance from past sins while confessing and admitting them openly.


As always this is just my humble opinion.

this is one of the arguments against jack hyles that i;ve heard many times on the other forums too....... and i must admit....... it;s one of the few things i hear that actually turns my heart in favor of him... even if only in a small way.... rather than against him as the posts are often intended to do............ because........ while i was never anywhere close to hammond... i was nevertheless... a bus kid..... ....i was saved on a church bus and i have no doubt the members of the church that bus brought me to saw us as no less wild and out of control as the members of hammond did..... especially when compared to their own....and i know i smelled a whole lot worse than any of their own children did.......

but the brief glimpse i was given into their world on those few sunday mornings is what gave me courage to believe i could stand up against what was wrong in mine..... ...i can;t explain all of what was going on inside me then....and it wasn;t even any of them that explained salvation to me and led me to Christ...... . but their church and on their bus was where the change in me started........... so.... for all his faults.....and though i didn;t even know him..... his desire to reach out to underpriveleged kids is one thing i am can actually admire him for...... and if he is what influenced others where i lived to do the same then i am also very grateful........

I agree wholeheartedly in the worth and importance of the bus ministry.

I worked on an A bus route in the 70s 80s and 90s.

I was writing to point out the problem that was caused at FBCH by choosing the bus ministry over the rich people. Bro. Hyles could not tell the rich people what to do and it galled him to no end.

So he plotted to get rid of the rich people.

He set up what is called a false dilemma, by asserting he could only keep one or the other, but not both.

Thus the false dilemma.

He said he had to choose between the rich people and the bus kids, remember his famous rallying cry, "I'll take the bus kids"?

He was not a diplomat and did not believe in doing right by all the members. He wanted his way period.

He was always a my way or the highway kind of guy.

He could have and should have kept the rich people and the bus kids. He did not need to create the false dilemma.

I believe he could have worked with the rich people and enlisted their help with the bus ministry instead of turning it into a knock-down drag-out fight, splitting the church.

We are hurting today because he chased those rich people away. He chopped off part of Christ's body and threw it away.

Jesus wants both the rich and the poor, he wants everybody, not just the poor or just the rich.

It is quite ironic that our new auditorium sits on the site of the Edward C. Minas Co. department store. This was the premier department store in the whole area in the early 20th century.

I believe the LORD had in mind having the new auditorium there all along, It could have been built there in the late 80s or 90s when the Minas store was moved to south Lake county, but for one problem, and that was the bad blood Bro. Hyles generated all those years before between those rich people and himself.


This is my humble opinion and how I see it.

 

[Norefund]

As much as I liked having Robert Billings as the High School principal in my HBHS days, he did not earn a Doctorate and I have no idea if an honorary doctorate was bestowed on him. After he was appointed to a position in the Department of Education during the Reagan administration, there was an article in a 1980s edition of a magazine (Science Digest if memory serves) decrying the lack of education that some department appointees had. They used the "diploma" cited by Robert Billings as an example. It had been purchased at a diploma mill that only required sending them the purchase price. No classes or anything. Maybe that is what Vince is referring to.

I still maintain that calling oneself "Doctor" or referring to anyone who did not earn a Doctorate degree as "Doctor" is disingenuous, egotistical and flat out wrong even, if an honorary degree was given.

And what was the "deceit" upon which HAC was founded?

Not telling us that they were unaccredited.

Making us call the college president "Dr. Billings," when he had purchased his doctorate from a diploma mill.

Making a bus mechanic named Al Waddel a teacher, so he wouldn't tell people that Jim Vineyard had grabbed him by the throat and slammed him against the wall.

And I'm only talking about the first day.

If you go to a college and don't know whether they are accredited or not, it is your fault.

If Billings earned his doctorate or if it was an honorary doctorate, it is still a doctorate.

Can't comment on the third one.

 

[Norefund]

I have no idea how Jack Hyles could have thought that his home was in order. In my opinion, his home life was so bad and the adulation of being the King for a day in another city was so good that he escaped using the "I'm out saving America" banner.

Not quite on point but,...

Oddly enough I was thinking about Dave Hyles yesterday. I began to wonder where it all started with him? Was it a girlfriend? An older woman? Dad gone so much? When did he start down this road?

We know that the time Dr. Hyles was home was minimal.  I think Dr. Hyles actually thought he had his home in order.  Obviously, not the case.  I'm not sure where it started, possibly as a teen boy.  I have a feeling he was extremely sneaky.

 

[SwampHag]

I tried but I cannot remove DH from the equation.

IMO, Jack Hyles' legacy is while he was an eloquent speaker and in his early years I believe he truly loved the Lord and served him, as time progressed he loved JH more and served himself and his empire and completely failed as a parent.

And as Rome's empire fell because the leaders made themselves gods, so did the Hyles Empire.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
.

 

[RAIDER]

I agree wholeheartedly in the worth and importance of the bus ministry.

I worked on an A bus route in the 70s 80s and 90s.

I was writing to point out the problem that was caused at FBCH by choosing the bus ministry over the rich people. Bro. Hyles could not tell the rich people what to do and it galled him to no end.

So he plotted to get rid of the rich people.

He set up what is called a false dilemma, by asserting he could only keep one or the other, but not both.

Thus the false dilemma.

He said he had to choose between the rich people and the bus kids, remember his famous rallying cry, "I'll take the bus kids"?

He was not a diplomat and did not believe in doing right by all the members. He wanted his way period.

He was always a my way or the highway kind of guy.

He could have and should have kept the rich people and the bus kids. He did not need to create the false dilemma.

I believe he could have worked with the rich people and enlisted their help with the bus ministry instead of turning it into a knock-down drag-out fight, splitting the church.

We are hurting today because he chased those rich people away. He chopped off part of Christ's body and threw it away.

Jesus wants both the rich and the poor, he wants everybody, not just the poor or just the rich.

It is quite ironic that our new auditorium sits on the site of the Edward C. Minas Co. department store. This was the premier department store in the whole area in the early 20th century.

I believe the LORD had in mind having the new auditorium there all along, It could have been built there in the late 80s or 90s when the Minas store was moved to south Lake county, but for one problem, and that was the bad blood Bro. Hyles generated all those years before between those rich people and himself.


This is my humble opinion and how I see it.

So what would the agreement looked like between the rich people (who were really fine with the bus ministry) and Dr. Hyles (who wanted the bus ministry)?

 

[RAIDER]

We are hurting today because he chased those rich people away. He chopped off part of Christ's body and threw it away.

So you actually believe that FBC's financial troubles today are tied to several rich people who left FBCH almost 50 years ago?