If Jackie-Boy showed up at your church?

[RAIDER]

While I understand that we all are sinners and we all do things wrong (taken from the phoster club 1.2.3 pray after me!!!) I am tired of the IFBX crowd judging others who are not as "righteous" as they are, and make fun of and criticise what others do or dont do. But then when they "fall", we have to forgive them and move on...forgive because Christ forgave...we all make mistakes!!!!

I hope Jack Schaap does his full court appointed punishment. There is much he can do in the chapel in the prison to continue some type of "ministry". He needs to stop using the blame game and own up to what he did. His wining is showing his lack of integrity! The Lord can still use him, after he gets out but I dont think he should ever be in a place of leadership.

I would not want to attend church with him. I dont hate the guy, but I have no respect for him what so ever!!

I don't think any of us have any respect for JS.  I'm guessing if we knew everything about other people in our church, we would have no respect for some of them either.  The difference is that the people we know have repented and been changed.  If JS repents and changes he should be afforded the same.

 

[RAIDER]

Could J.S. restore his relationship with God?  If he humbles himself and is truly sorry, God will forgive him & restore fellowship. (e.g. David, King of Israel & Peter & Samson. )

Should he ever pastor, I would say "NO". Should he ever be intrusted with young people in any way? I would say "NO".

I'm just reminded if it were not for the Grace Of God I could do something just as stupid. I can't help but think of the price a little pride & lack of self control cost him. May we all be reminded of 1 Peter 5:8.

What he said.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

While I understand that we all are sinners and we all do things wrong (taken from the phoster club 1.2.3 pray after me!!!) I am tired of the IFBX crowd judging others who are not as "righteous" as they are, and make fun of and criticise what others do or dont do. But then when they "fall", we have to forgive them and move on...forgive because Christ forgave...we all make mistakes!!!!

I hope Jack Schaap does his full court appointed punishment. There is much he can do in the chapel in the prison to continue some type of "ministry". He needs to stop using the blame game and own up to what he did. His wining is showing his lack of integrity! The Lord can still use him, after he gets out but I dont think he should ever be in a place of leadership.

I would not want to attend church with him. I dont hate the guy, but I have no respect for him what so ever!!

I don't think any of us have any respect for JS.  I'm guessing if we knew everything about other people in our church, we would have no respect for some of them either.  The difference is that the people we know have repented and been changed.  If JS repents and changes he should be afforded the same.

RAIDER, I am picking on your post because you are speaking the loudest.

I am really getting tired of all of the HAC-speak on this thread.  Stop wanting to give someone a position or place of ministry.  This is pride, which is sin, and was the sin behind the downfall of JS.

Your last post is very contradictory.  If we knew about people....but they have been changed.  Wrong.  We should know about people.  We should never be surprised at the depths of sin our brother or sister across the pew has been.  He admitted such when he proclaimed himself a sinner and sought the grace of God for salvation.  We are happy to accept one with their flaws and help encourage them to Christ in their battles to overcome or live with the results of sins of the past.

As humans, especially humans who know Christ, our purpose and goal is:
1.  Glorify God
2.  Spousal responsibilities
3.  Rearing children towards God
4.  Others

The purpose of repentance is not so we can have a position again - ANY POSITION!!!  The purpose of repentance is to acknowledge your sin before a holy God so that you might have the joy of your salvation restored to you and relish the sweet relationship with your God.  End of story, no position, no wanting.  STOP PROMOTING MINISTRY OVER RELATIONSHIP!  I know this is contradictory to what we learned at HAC, but I believe the promotion of ministry as the ultimate goal in life is one of the principle failures of the HAC system.

If one is counseling the fallen JS, he should be counseled to restore his relationship with his God.  NOT: Prove you have done these things so you can have a ministry again.  If ministry is the goal, it is an idol.

 

[Mathew Ward]

If ministry is the goal, it is an idol.

Then folks create a lot of outward standards to make it seem "Godly" and believe it is validated it by numbers.

 

[prophet]

If ministry is the goal, it is an idol.

Then folks create a lot of outward standards to make it seem "Godly" and believe it is validated it by numbers.

This^^^^

Many times I heard Jack S name some famous Mega-church, not of like faith, and say "there must be some reason God is blessing them, look at their numbers".

He supposed that gain is godliness.

From such I have turned away.

He was, is now, and undoubtedly will be the rest of his life, a false teacher.
The Scripture never admonishes us to seek to restore such a man.

But, like in Clinton's impeachment, the evil doers made it about "an affair", instead what he was impeached for: Lying under oath.
So, in Schaap's case, the sycophants, and fellow-travellers will make it out to be a "fall"or "affair" rather than an exposure of what a debauched wolf he really is.

 

[RAIDER]

While I understand that we all are sinners and we all do things wrong (taken from the phoster club 1.2.3 pray after me!!!) I am tired of the IFBX crowd judging others who are not as "righteous" as they are, and make fun of and criticise what others do or dont do. But then when they "fall", we have to forgive them and move on...forgive because Christ forgave...we all make mistakes!!!!

I hope Jack Schaap does his full court appointed punishment. There is much he can do in the chapel in the prison to continue some type of "ministry". He needs to stop using the blame game and own up to what he did. His wining is showing his lack of integrity! The Lord can still use him, after he gets out but I dont think he should ever be in a place of leadership.

I would not want to attend church with him. I dont hate the guy, but I have no respect for him what so ever!!

I don't think any of us have any respect for JS.  I'm guessing if we knew everything about other people in our church, we would have no respect for some of them either.  The difference is that the people we know have repented and been changed.  If JS repents and changes he should be afforded the same.

RAIDER, I am picking on your post because you are speaking the loudest.

I am really getting tired of all of the HAC-speak on this thread.  Stop wanting to give someone a position or place of ministry.  This is pride, which is sin, and was the sin behind the downfall of JS.

Your last post is very contradictory.  If we knew about people....but they have been changed.  Wrong.  We should know about people.  We should never be surprised at the depths of sin our brother or sister across the pew has been.  He admitted such when he proclaimed himself a sinner and sought the grace of God for salvation.  We are happy to accept one with their flaws and help encourage them to Christ in their battles to overcome or live with the results of sins of the past.

As humans, especially humans who know Christ, our purpose and goal is:
1.  Glorify God
2.  Spousal responsibilities
3.  Rearing children towards God
4.  Others

The purpose of repentance is not so we can have a position again - ANY POSITION!!!  The purpose of repentance is to acknowledge your sin before a holy God so that you might have the joy of your salvation restored to you and relish the sweet relationship with your God.  End of story, no position, no wanting.  STOP PROMOTING MINISTRY OVER RELATIONSHIP!  I know this is contradictory to what we learned at HAC, but I believe the promotion of ministry as the ultimate goal in life is one of the principle failures of the HAC system.

If one is counseling the fallen JS, he should be counseled to restore his relationship with his God.  NOT: Prove you have done these things so you can have a ministry again.  If ministry is the goal, it is an idol.

I have no problem with you picking on my posts.  That is what we do on the FFF!  You and I are on the same page the majority of the time.  My posts have been in answer to the OP.

[b"]Just curious, 2 questions for the pastors out there...

If/when Jackie-Boy gets out of the big house, what role, if any, could he legitimately fill in the church?

And, if Jackie-Boy showed up at your church, how would you react?"

[/b]

You are acting like I am looking for a "position" or "place of ministry" for JS.  You say, "Stop promoting ministry over relationship".  No where have I done that.  The scenario I have painted in several posts (in staying with the OP) is that JS serves his time.  He is humbled, repents, and shows such fruit (evidently you have missed me saying this in other posts)  Again, in staying with the question in the OP, "YES!  JS could one day be an usher.  YES! JS could one day work in a sound booth.  YES! JS could one day minister to those in jail.  YES! JS could one day be used to serve God again!!"

I realize you have some very negative feelings toward JS and rightfully so.  Where you get the idea that I think JS should get out of prison and jump into a ministry, I don't know.  Where you get the idea that ministry is the goal, I don't know.  I have never said anything close to either statement.

On the other hand, for you to act like JS can never be used to serve God again is pure hypocrisy.  People that have been hurt will need to get over their hurt in order to move on as God would have them.   

 

[prophet]

While I understand that we all are sinners and we all do things wrong (taken from the phoster club 1.2.3 pray after me!!!) I am tired of the IFBX crowd judging others who are not as "righteous" as they are, and make fun of and criticise what others do or dont do. But then when they "fall", we have to forgive them and move on...forgive because Christ forgave...we all make mistakes!!!!

I hope Jack Schaap does his full court appointed punishment. There is much he can do in the chapel in the prison to continue some type of "ministry". He needs to stop using the blame game and own up to what he did. His wining is showing his lack of integrity! The Lord can still use him, after he gets out but I dont think he should ever be in a place of leadership.

I would not want to attend church with him. I dont hate the guy, but I have no respect for him what so ever!!

I don't think any of us have any respect for JS.  I'm guessing if we knew everything about other people in our church, we would have no respect for some of them either.  The difference is that the people we know have repented and been changed.  If JS repents and changes he should be afforded the same.

RAIDER, I am picking on your post because you are speaking the loudest.

I am really getting tired of all of the HAC-speak on this thread.  Stop wanting to give someone a position or place of ministry.  This is pride, which is sin, and was the sin behind the downfall of JS.

Your last post is very contradictory.  If we knew about people....but they have been changed.  Wrong.  We should know about people.  We should never be surprised at the depths of sin our brother or sister across the pew has been.  He admitted such when he proclaimed himself a sinner and sought the grace of God for salvation.  We are happy to accept one with their flaws and help encourage them to Christ in their battles to overcome or live with the results of sins of the past.

As humans, especially humans who know Christ, our purpose and goal is:
1.  Glorify God
2.  Spousal responsibilities
3.  Rearing children towards God
4.  Others

The purpose of repentance is not so we can have a position again - ANY POSITION!!!  The purpose of repentance is to acknowledge your sin before a holy God so that you might have the joy of your salvation restored to you and relish the sweet relationship with your God.  End of story, no position, no wanting.  STOP PROMOTING MINISTRY OVER RELATIONSHIP!  I know this is contradictory to what we learned at HAC, but I believe the promotion of ministry as the ultimate goal in life is one of the principle failures of the HAC system.

If one is counseling the fallen JS, he should be counseled to restore his relationship with his God.  NOT: Prove you have done these things so you can have a ministry again.  If ministry is the goal, it is an idol.

I have no problem with you picking on my posts.  That is what we do on the FFF!  You and I are on the same page the majority of the time.  My posts have been in answer to the OP.

[b"]Just curious, 2 questions for the pastors out there...

If/when Jackie-Boy gets out of the big house, what role, if any, could he legitimately fill in the church?

And, if Jackie-Boy showed up at your church, how would you react?"

[/b]

You are acting like I am looking for a "position" or "place of ministry" for JS.  You say, "Stop promoting ministry over relationship".  No where have I done that.  The scenario I have painted in several posts (in staying with the OP) is that JS serves his time.  He is humbled, repents, and shows such fruit (evidently you have missed me saying this in other posts)  Again, in staying with the question in the OP, "YES!  JS could one day be an usher.  YES! JS could one day work in a sound booth.  YES! JS could one day minister to those in jail.  YES! JS could one day be used to serve God again!!"

I realize you have some very negative feelings toward JS and rightfully so.  Where you get the idea that I think JS should get out of prison and jump into a ministry, I don't know.  Where you get the idea that ministry is the goal, I don't know.  I have never said anything close to either statement.

On the other hand, for you to act like JS can never be used to serve God again is pure hypocrisy.  People that have been hurt will need to get over their hurt in order to move on as God would have them. 

One of the weaknesses of HAC, was that we allowed anyone who showed up to minister in the name of FBCH/HAC.
How many times was some one offended (biblically,  not current misuse of term)from the true Gospel, or fellowship with the believers because  of  what someone did or said?  Spiritual gifts were not discerned and tested before a HACker was allowed to HACk outside of classroom walls.
Not saying that these should have been bound and gagged,  but not allowed to influence chidren, represent the church, etc.

Now, theoretically,  the middle management were supposed to reign this in, but the capable ministry leader was a rare bird.

The kingdom of the flesh that was established at HAC, by leadership, summed up in Roger Casteel, Jack S, Joe Combs, Jim Vinyard and others, perpetuated the mishandling of souls in Jesus's name.

This seems to be taken less serious by some, than others.
And maybe we HBers saw it by volume, and have 20+ years of observation to draw from.

Either way, the very idea that Jack Schaap should  be "restored" is a misuderstanding of his actual offenses, and a lack of understanding of church discipline.

You don't restore a wolf.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

While I understand that we all are sinners and we all do things wrong (taken from the phoster club 1.2.3 pray after me!!!) I am tired of the IFBX crowd judging others who are not as "righteous" as they are, and make fun of and criticise what others do or dont do. But then when they "fall", we have to forgive them and move on...forgive because Christ forgave...we all make mistakes!!!!

I hope Jack Schaap does his full court appointed punishment. There is much he can do in the chapel in the prison to continue some type of "ministry". He needs to stop using the blame game and own up to what he did. His wining is showing his lack of integrity! The Lord can still use him, after he gets out but I dont think he should ever be in a place of leadership.

I would not want to attend church with him. I dont hate the guy, but I have no respect for him what so ever!!

I don't think any of us have any respect for JS.  I'm guessing if we knew everything about other people in our church, we would have no respect for some of them either.  The difference is that the people we know have repented and been changed.  If JS repents and changes he should be afforded the same.

RAIDER, I am picking on your post because you are speaking the loudest.

I am really getting tired of all of the HAC-speak on this thread.  Stop wanting to give someone a position or place of ministry.  This is pride, which is sin, and was the sin behind the downfall of JS.

Your last post is very contradictory.  If we knew about people....but they have been changed.  Wrong.  We should know about people.  We should never be surprised at the depths of sin our brother or sister across the pew has been.  He admitted such when he proclaimed himself a sinner and sought the grace of God for salvation.  We are happy to accept one with their flaws and help encourage them to Christ in their battles to overcome or live with the results of sins of the past.

As humans, especially humans who know Christ, our purpose and goal is:
1.  Glorify God
2.  Spousal responsibilities
3.  Rearing children towards God
4.  Others

The purpose of repentance is not so we can have a position again - ANY POSITION!!!  The purpose of repentance is to acknowledge your sin before a holy God so that you might have the joy of your salvation restored to you and relish the sweet relationship with your God.  End of story, no position, no wanting.  STOP PROMOTING MINISTRY OVER RELATIONSHIP!  I know this is contradictory to what we learned at HAC, but I believe the promotion of ministry as the ultimate goal in life is one of the principle failures of the HAC system.

If one is counseling the fallen JS, he should be counseled to restore his relationship with his God.  NOT: Prove you have done these things so you can have a ministry again.  If ministry is the goal, it is an idol.

I have no problem with you picking on my posts.  That is what we do on the FFF!  You and I are on the same page the majority of the time.  My posts have been in answer to the OP.

[b"]Just curious, 2 questions for the pastors out there...

If/when Jackie-Boy gets out of the big house, what role, if any, could he legitimately fill in the church?

And, if Jackie-Boy showed up at your church, how would you react?"

[/b]

You are acting like I am looking for a "position" or "place of ministry" for JS.  You say, "Stop promoting ministry over relationship".  No where have I done that.  The scenario I have painted in several posts (in staying with the OP) is that JS serves his time.  He is humbled, repents, and shows such fruit (evidently you have missed me saying this in other posts)  Again, in staying with the question in the OP, "YES!  JS could one day be an usher.  YES! JS could one day work in a sound booth.  YES! JS could one day minister to those in jail.  YES! JS could one day be used to serve God again!!"

I realize you have some very negative feelings toward JS and rightfully so.  Where you get the idea that I think JS should get out of prison and jump into a ministry, I don't know.  Where you get the idea that ministry is the goal, I don't know.  I have never said anything close to either statement.

On the other hand, for you to act like JS can never be used to serve God again is pure hypocrisy.  People that have been hurt will need to get over their hurt in order to move on as God would have them. 

Yes, my friend, I have been deeply hurt on a very personal level by many in the IFB movement's leadership.  Jack Schaap is not one of those.  I had no regard for him when I met him in the late 80's.  I viewed him as a pompous preacher whose sermons were filled with the exaggerated in efforts to achieve the "Shock and Awe" effect.  I wasn't shocked and I wasn't awed.  I gave him a chance as a leader briefly in the 90's, but he quickly destroyed the little trust and respect I gave him.  He and I had bold disagreements and very few people questioned our respect for each other.  I would later seek his forgiveness for my part in a confrontational relationship and we got along the very few times we saw each other.  My motivation for this post is not my disdain for the man.

You, and a few others, continue to seek for a place of ministry for this fallen Christian.  The last line of your post speaks to the goal of putting people in ministry.  He, nor any other Christian who has fallen, does not need to seek a place of ministry.  He needs to seek a relationship with God.  I know HAC-speak is your heritage.  But, repentance is not solidified by ministry.  Repentance is agreeing with God that you have committed the sin.  Restoration has the sole purpose of restoring relationship to God, not ministry.  Until he fixes the first three relationships, the repentant Christian should not be seeking to minister to others.  This infatuation with a place of ministry is idolatry.  It places personal significance over humble relationship.  We must stop looking at what I can do for Christ, and just look to Christ.

Try reading Thomas Watson's "The Doctrine of Repentance."  You just might find that the goal of restoration (part of the duty of the pastor) is not to get people ready for ministry, but to help them develop a relationship with God so that they can fulfill their primary purpose in life: Glorify God.

 

[RAIDER]

You, and a few others, continue to seek for a place of ministry for this fallen Christian.  The last line of your post speaks to the goal of putting people in ministry.  He, nor any other Christian who has fallen, does not need to seek a place of ministry.  He needs to seek a relationship with God.  I know HAC-speak is your heritage.  But, repentance is not solidified by ministry.  Repentance is agreeing with God that you have committed the sin.  Restoration has the sole purpose of restoring relationship to God, not ministry.  Until he fixes the first three relationships, the repentant Christian should not be seeking to minister to others.  This infatuation with a place of ministry is idolatry.  It places personal significance over humble relationship.  We must stop looking at what I can do for Christ, and just look to Christ.

Try reading Thomas Watson's "The Doctrine of Repentance."  You just might find that the goal of restoration (part of the duty of the pastor) is not to get people ready for ministry, but to help them develop a relationship with God so that they can fulfill their primary purpose in life: Glorify God.

Ok, I still stand by my thought that you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into my posts on this thread.  Here, see if this helps:

I thing Jack Schaap is a terrible individual who deserves what he is getting.  I think his sentence should be longer than it is.  Jack Schaap needs to repent and seek a relationship with God.  He needs restoration with God.  If he ever achieves this he should never serve the Lord through the local church in any way.  If he lives to 100 he should never be an usher, clean the bathrooms, or work in the sound booth.  While he has repented, been restored to God, and has a relationship with Him, his days of doing ANYTHING in the church are over!!

There, have I now got it right?

 

[brainisengaged]

Raider, the issue that comes to my mind (and what I think might perhaps be triggering the response you've received from Binaca...although of course I won't presume to speak for him) is that you seem to put forth the idea that one can only perform service to God via a named / titled position in the church. I don't have any named or titled position in the church, save for 'member'...but I try to live my life for Him and thus I consider myself to be in His full-time service.

 

[RAIDER]

Raider, the issue that comes to my mind (and what I think might perhaps be triggering the response you've received from Binaca...although of course I won't presume to speak for him) is that you seem to put forth the idea that one can only perform service to God via a named / titled position in the church. I don't have any named or titled position in the church, save for 'member'...but I try to live my life for Him and thus I consider myself to be in His full-time service.

The OP is asking what JS might ever be able to do in a church again.  I have only answered his question.  With all of my posts I have stated that I am coming from an angle where JS would repent and get right with God.  I also have been coming from the angle that "proving time' has passed.  I have never elevated him to a 'position" unless you consider being an usher, working in the sound booth, or cleaning bathrooms a "position".  I have also stated that JS could possibly minister to those in jail.  Again, I don't view this as a "position". 

I would hope that you do something to serve in your church besides fill a pew.  Perhaps you work in the nursery, are a helper in a SS class, go soul winning, visit those in a nursing home, etc

 

[Mathew Ward]

Raider, the issue that comes to my mind (and what I think might perhaps be triggering the response you've received from Binaca...although of course I won't presume to speak for him) is that you seem to put forth the idea that one can only perform service to God via a named / titled position in the church. I don't have any named or titled position in the church, save for 'member'...but I try to live my life for Him and thus I consider myself to be in His full-time service.

The OP is asking what JS might ever be able to do in a church again.  I have only answered his question.  With all of my posts I have stated that I am coming from an angle where JS would repent and get right with God.  I also have been coming from the angle that "proving time' has passed.  I have never elevated him to a 'position" unless you consider being an usher, working in the sound booth, or cleaning bathrooms a "position".  I have also stated that JS could possibly minister to those in jail.  Again, I don't view this as a "position". 

I would hope that you do something to serve in your church besides fill a pew.  Perhaps you work in the nursery, are a helper in a SS class, go soul winning, visit those in a nursing home, etc

Usher, sound booth and janitor are positions in the church.

 

[RAIDER]

Raider, the issue that comes to my mind (and what I think might perhaps be triggering the response you've received from Binaca...although of course I won't presume to speak for him) is that you seem to put forth the idea that one can only perform service to God via a named / titled position in the church. I don't have any named or titled position in the church, save for 'member'...but I try to live my life for Him and thus I consider myself to be in His full-time service.

The OP is asking what JS might ever be able to do in a church again.  I have only answered his question.  With all of my posts I have stated that I am coming from an angle where JS would repent and get right with God.  I also have been coming from the angle that "proving time' has passed.  I have never elevated him to a 'position" unless you consider being an usher, working in the sound booth, or cleaning bathrooms a "position".  I have also stated that JS could possibly minister to those in jail.  Again, I don't view this as a "position". 

I would hope that you do something to serve in your church besides fill a pew.  Perhaps you work in the nursery, are a helper in a SS class, go soul winning, visit those in a nursing home, etc

Usher, sound booth and janitor are positions in the church.

So is a member and a visitor.

 

[brainisengaged]

Well, my biggest thought on this thread (and I really never intended to jump in on it...but I did) is, "Why spend time conjecturing meaningless things about someone whose impact on our life is over and who most of us will probably never see again?"

But it honestly rankles me, and I think it is a personal pet peeve, whenever it is insinuated that only those who "do" something at the church are serving the Lord.

 

[RAIDER]

Well, my biggest thought on this thread (and I really never intended to jump in on it...but I did) is, "Why spend time conjecturing meaningless things about someone whose impact on our life is over and who most of us will probably never see again?"

But it honestly rankles me, and I think it is a personal pet peeve, whenever it is insinuated that only those who "do" something at the church are serving the Lord.

I don't mean this to seem smart aleck, but how do you "serve" the Lord if you don't do anything?

 

[brainisengaged]

By being who He called you to be. By noticing that your next-door-neighbor is all alone in the world and bringing him a plate of homemade cookies and praying for him. By doing some of your work on a volunteer basis for those who cannot afford your services. By treating everyone with kindness and consideration. By living honorably. By loving your spouse. By being honest. By apologizing to the person you were rude to. By noticing the person who is sad because no one will speak with them ad they feel alone. By listening to the zillionth time with genuine interest  to an older person's stories...I could go on and on...

To live every moment of every day with a profound sense of His presence is a challenge I haven't lived up to yet...but it is what I believe we are called to, and in striving for that high calling we are serving our Lord as we serve others in our every day existence.

Of course the jobs at church need to be filled. The positions need people to fill them. But that is not the only way of serving the Lord. Am I too simplistic?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

You, and a few others, continue to seek for a place of ministry for this fallen Christian.  The last line of your post speaks to the goal of putting people in ministry.  He, nor any other Christian who has fallen, does not need to seek a place of ministry.  He needs to seek a relationship with God.  I know HAC-speak is your heritage.  But, repentance is not solidified by ministry.  Repentance is agreeing with God that you have committed the sin.  Restoration has the sole purpose of restoring relationship to God, not ministry.  Until he fixes the first three relationships, the repentant Christian should not be seeking to minister to others.  This infatuation with a place of ministry is idolatry.  It places personal significance over humble relationship.  We must stop looking at what I can do for Christ, and just look to Christ.

Try reading Thomas Watson's "The Doctrine of Repentance."  You just might find that the goal of restoration (part of the duty of the pastor) is not to get people ready for ministry, but to help them develop a relationship with God so that they can fulfill their primary purpose in life: Glorify God.

Ok, I still stand by my thought that you are reading WAY TOO MUCH into my posts on this thread.  Here, see if this helps:

I thing Jack Schaap is a terrible individual who deserves what he is getting.  I think his sentence should be longer than it is.  Jack Schaap needs to repent and seek a relationship with God.  He needs restoration with God.  If he ever achieves this he should never serve the Lord through the local church in any way.  If he lives to 100 he should never be an usher, clean the bathrooms, or work in the sound booth.  While he has repented, been restored to God, and has a relationship with Him, his days of doing ANYTHING in the church are over!!

There, have I now got it right?

A great, big, resounding - - - - NO!

I was with you until you got to the: "If he ever....."  This is where you tend to HACspeak.  Proclaiming he should or should not is NOT the goal of restoration.  We seek to restore people to Christ.  Period.  End of story.  As soon as we put a goal on the end of the restoration process, we have determined what the process and end of sanctification has become.  This is a great error that we learned from our alma mater.  If you are restoring people in your church, as a church should be doing, seek to restore them to Christ.  Don't present a "I could see you doing XYZ one day."  Just simply teach them to yield to the process of sanctification.  God is fully capable of using a Christian who has restored his relationship with Christ, his joy in his salvation and his yieldedness to sanctification in a way that we might not imagine.

 

[prophet]

Well, my biggest thought on this thread (and I really never intended to jump in on it...but I did) is, "Why spend time conjecturing meaningless things about someone whose impact on our life is over and who most of us will probably never see again?"

But it honestly rankles me, and I think it is a personal pet peeve, whenever it is insinuated that only those who "do" something at the church are serving the Lord.

I don't mean this to seem smart aleck, but how do you "serve" the Lord if you don't do anything?

Mat 25:40
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Well, my biggest thought on this thread (and I really never intended to jump in on it...but I did) is, "Why spend time conjecturing meaningless things about someone whose impact on our life is over and who most of us will probably never see again?"

But it honestly rankles me, and I think it is a personal pet peeve, whenever it is insinuated that only those who "do" something at the church are serving the Lord.

I don't mean this to seem smart aleck, but how do you "serve" the Lord if you don't do anything?

 

[RAIDER]

By being who He called you to be. By noticing that your next-door-neighbor is all alone in the world and bringing him a plate of homemade cookies and praying for him. By doing some of your work on a volunteer basis for those who cannot afford your services. By treating everyone with kindness and consideration. By living honorably. By loving your spouse. By being honest. I could go on and on...

To live every moment of every day with a profound sense of His presence is a challenge I haven't lived up to yet...but it is what I believe we are called to, and in striving for that high calling we are serving our Lord as we serve others in our every day existence.

Of course the jobs at church need to be filled. The positions need people to fill them. But that is not the only way of serving the Lord. Am I too simplistic?

Absolutely not!  From your previous posts I got the idea that you just attended church and went about your daily routine.  The things you listed are all ways of doing things to serve the Lord. 

 

[RAIDER]

God is fully capable of using a Christian who has restored his relationship with Christ, his joy in his salvation and his yieldedness to sanctification in a way that we might not imagine.

Thank you.  This is what I have been saying for several posts.