How IFB's can reach and keep the 30 and under generation....

ALAYMAN said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
I hope Frag, Alayman and a few others still in the movement will give their input. Some on FB thought he article was on target....others dug in their heels and resisted any call for change.
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Over all I'd say I agree with it more than disagree.  I particularly thought he nailed point number 2 about "principles".  I came to that same conclusion about 5 or 6 years ago.  The whole thing of ranting about the movie theater but allowing video rentals was so asinine that it is hard to believe that people actually thought that way.  Teaching people to guard their heart (and not just rely on "standards"), and having them apply principled reason to situations requires discernment and a little more thoughtfulness in the approach to the complexity of life, but in the end it allows a person to be much more principled in their applications.  The main reason the old guard doesn't want to do that, and the reason they resist change, is twofold.  First, old people (and those resistant to change in general) don't like to admit they may have had it wrong.  Secondly, let's face it, there's a whole lot of self-righteous folk out there who'd rather have their pedigree and lists so that they can check them off and feel like they're being "good Christians", while at the same time being able to point out the "neos".  It's an enticing trap.

Where I'd caution him to maybe go slow is the whole notion that the soundbyte generational approach to communication (which video, drama, etc, lends itself to) is not the best method to capture true attention.  The word of God, rightly divided, brings maturation and sanctification.  We don't need to add to it.  I'm not saying that NO technology (videos et al) should ever be used in worship, but the younger trend is to use visual stimulation to hold attention, and I believe that is a seductive but faulty assumption.

Lastly, and maybe tangentially related, I think I notice a touch of narcissism in the whole tone of the article.  It seems to make all the pleas to the old guard from the perspective of the young.  But the church is composed of much more than just the gen-x folk.  Some of those "relevant" pieces that the pastor cites are actually hitting home with a portion of the crowd.  I see all kinds of dated references to the 80's in marketing of all sorts of commercials.  Maybe rather than thinking that the church centers around youth, the author should try to do a little contemplation of what those reference mean to a different demographic.
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I appreciate your balanced and INTELLECTUALLY HONEST viewpoint.  :)

I saw this on FB...posted by an IFB Pastor and then I participated in a discussion about the blog post on another FB page. The feeling among the IFBs there were mixed, to say the least.

While I don't agree with everything, I agree with his underlying point....there needs to be some change in methodology if the fundamental Baptist movement is going to reach the next generation(s).

I think the young man tried to present his arguments humbly and even handedly. I think he pegged some of the issues, which to many wouldn't be issues...which is why the IFB's do have problems. The use of screens and videos is not an issue to me at all...they are simply tools used to teach and present the truth to a visual, video, social media generation.

I think the young man will develop a following of some of the younger leaders in Baptist fundamentalism....I hope he keeps a humble, teachable spirit...which leads me to a problem he didn't directly address. And that's the arrogance and dogmatism often reflected in the so called big name leaders of the movement. That attitude of don't correct me because the man of God isn't wrong will not fly with the younger...under 30 generation.
Servant leadership is needed and wanted in our movement. not to mention that type leadership is ordained and modeled in Scripture.
 
FSSL said:
I see alot of good stuff in that article. Here is a particular segment of the 20-30 yr population that I would like to focus on for this post...

Churches would do well to have an intentional debriefing of their Bible college students. Too often, when a Bible college student comes back home or is fresh into a ministry, they have difficulty understanding the difference between institutional policies/rules and genuine standards. The two are not the same.

20-30s somethings post-college students are still working through the applications of their beliefs. Many are idealistic and have internal conflicts while deciphering life outside the "sanitized" walls.

Bible Colleges are political entities. Their standards' list is often comprised of elements to draw lines where the biggest loyal, supporting pastors demand. Bible Colleges have to cater to a wide variety of churches. In so doing, we get silliness like requiring the KJV to be used as the exclusive text behind the pulpit and in the classroom.

If you need proof, then follow how churches and other Bible Colleges are reacting to Northland's common-sense biblical approach. It cuts across the grain of pseudo-spiritual institutional manipulations.
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I totally agree and the Northland reaction illustrates the problem.
We have not sent a student to Bible College in our church in decades.
The young people in our church who are going into full time ministry have attended either Liberty or Ceaderville. We do have one lady attending Piedmont, but she is an education major.

I'm not so sure that the Bible College mentality isn't in need of a complete philosophy overhaul.
 
Frag:
Interesting that the author purports to speak for all 20-30 somethings.  The arrogance of the article is embarrassing.  It comes across as "do this or we will leave". 

Sad day in which we live.  Somehow Christians have been able to gather together and enjoy pure and purposeful worship for hundreds of years BEFORE our recent advancement in technology, yet now the narcissistic message from a new generation is this -- "We are the first ones to get it right!  Learn from us or we are leaving." 

Here is a thought.  Why not learn from your Christian grandparents?  Why not learn from the previous generation?  Stop demanding entertainment and start developing character!  If you want a cotton candy Christianity, then LEAVE!  You cannot feed an army on cotton candy. 

Having said that, God has blessed our church with MANY 20-30 year old couples who have not become a slave to the "golden calf" mentality of worship.  They want conservative, Bible based, traditional worship.  And if I did change to what the author would wish for all churches to become -- THEY WOULD LEAVE and find a good conservative church. 

Pastors -- get a clue.  Stop letting a minority of hip-hop carnal 20 something Christians talk you into overhauling your church services.  And if you do -- no problem.  I will be glad to welcome your 40-60 something tithing conservative high-wage earning traditional worship loving members into my conservative Baptist church!!!  :)
First of all, you misread his opening statement, totally.

There has always been generational and technological tension in the church.
Sound systems are technology and we all use them.
Some wont use screens but hey use flannelgraph, puppets and other visuals in other aspects of ministry.

But, ill put you down as this guy is a compromising liberal and wants us all to follow him category.  :)
 
FSSL said:

If you need proof, then follow how churches and other Bible Colleges are reacting to Northland's common-sense biblical approach. It cuts across the grain of pseudo-spiritual institutional manipulations.

Tarheel replied:

I totally agree and the Northland reaction illustrates the problem.

Can you guys elucidate, for those of us whose upbringing wasn't immersed in the indy-fundy ghetto?
 
subllibrm said:
Frag said:
Interesting that the author purports to speak for all 20-30 somethings.
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Very first words:

****DISCLAIMER: I know I don't speak for every Baptist 20-30 year old. Also, unless explicitly mentioned in the article, I'm not referencing any particular ministries****

So much for your take on the article.  ::)
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I read his "disclaimer".  Oldest trick in the book.  Claim to not be doing what you then proceed to do. 

I stand by my post.  Just another arrogant little punk who thinks God can't do without HIS generation and their new toys. 
 
Be patient with them. If they can only go to church once a month be happy with that but pray for them. Don't get on their case about the lack of church attendance. Once a month is better than never.  That's my advice.
 
Ransom said:
FSSL said:

If you need proof, then follow how churches and other Bible Colleges are reacting to Northland's common-sense biblical approach. It cuts across the grain of pseudo-spiritual institutional manipulations.

Tarheel replied:

I totally agree and the Northland reaction illustrates the problem.

Can you guys elucidate, for those of us whose upbringing wasn't immersed in the indy-fundy ghetto?
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http://reformingbaptist.blogspot.com/2013/04/northland-ccm-fundamentalism-separation.html

Northland's perspective:
http://sharperiron.org/article/northland-changing-chancellors-perspective-from-dr-les-ollila

 
As a young pastor, I understand and appreciate a lot that he had to say, but I really think he overstates the importance of technology.  I'm 29.  I'm a web designer and blogger.  I've been paid to give seminar presentations on how to use powerpoint effectively.  But as a pastor, 90% of the time, I could do without all of that stuff.  It's not what matters and I've never found that it's been able to keep one person in the church. 
If there is a legitimate difference between my generation of pastors and those before it is that we have access to the internet, so we can look over fences very easily.  It's also becoming increasingly hard to lead by deliberately withholding information.  Both of those things make a huge difference.  But we aren't different, it's all circumstantial.
 
Ransom said:
All righty . . . so basically NIU had a presence at a popular music concert, and Lou-ser Martuneac and various other psycho-fundies had steam shooting out of their ears?
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Bible Colleges (and IFB associations) are political conundrums. If you intend to draw from the IFBrs, then it is institutional suicide to move outside the IFBr boundaries. You cannot move outside those boundaries as an institution without taking "hits."

This is one reason I am no longer a pastor. Through years of Bible study and reading the historical source documentation of IFBdom, I saw things never mentioned (and still not mentioned). Many were touted as "heroes" of the faith because they "stood for the faith and did not compromise!" They told us that they took hard stands for the faith. The problem was, and is today, they were simply not able to move up their respective ladders. So, they just moved down the road and started their own college or church, declaring the other colleges/churches to be non-separatistic.

It disgusted/s me. I moved from the ministry I was in and quietly transitioned into secular employment. I had no where to go and was not about to get support from an IFB ministry to start a church. One of my family members wanted me to give my resume to their church leaders. It is an IFB church. I knew that I could not pastor a IFB church ever again.

In that moving (and the tensions that come along with that), I lost the desire for full-time ministry. I did not realize that I let 15 years of ministry struggles boil inside me. I tried to chuck Christianity, a decade ago, in my thirties. The doctrine of perseverance is difficult to fight against!

My main ministry, for the moment, is to give my kids a very wide and common-sense look at evangelical ministries. Will they be disappointed in life? Sure. Hopefully, they will know how to find a good, solid church, whether it be a IFB church or even their favorite (for the moment) a vibrant, Presbyterian church.
 
It's a good Baptist blog written about a solid Baptist doctrine from a typical Baptist context by a neo-fundamental Baptist. I'm just not sure how many 20-30's they are really keeping. He didn't give any stats to develop any real logical conclusions.
 
pastorryanhayden said:
snip

If there is a legitimate difference between my generation of pastors and those before it is that we have access to the internet, so we can look over fences very easily.  It's also becoming increasingly hard to lead by deliberately withholding information.  Both of those things make a huge difference.  But we aren't different, it's all circumstantial.
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I'll just be a bit more more blatant. The wide access to information we have today just plain makes it harder to pull the wool over people's eyes any longer. When you can Google a sermon illustration a pastor tries to pawn off as his own, inflated membership/attendance figures, peevish insults made online or any number of other on-line issues, a pastor's credibility is under even more scrutiny today. Just think, what if some enlightened skulls of mush from Frag's church see's what he posts here on the FFF? Theyjust might take wings and fly. ;D

Eventually there will be fewer and fewer people who listen to "preacher" say you not to go on the internet.
 
> "I'll just be a bit more more blatant. The wide access to information we have today just plain makes it harder to pull the wool over people's eyes any longer. When you can Google a sermon illustration a pastor tries to pawn off as his own, inflated membership/attendance figures, peevish insults made online or any number of other on-line issues, a pastor's credibility is under even more scrutiny today. Just think, what if some enlightened skulls of mush from Frag's church see's what he posts here on the FFF? Theyjust might take wings and fly."

You just reminded me of this which I wrote a couple months ago but never published.  Thanks.
http://ryan-hayden.com/why-obscurantism-doesnt-work-anymore/
 
Frag said:
I read his "disclaimer".  Oldest trick in the book.  Claim to not be doing what you then proceed to do. 

I stand by my post.  Just another arrogant little punk who thinks God can't do without HIS generation and their new toys.
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???

No electricity in your building Frag? No microphone at the pulpit? What in the world are you doing on the internet? Does elder Yoder know you are here?
 
subllibrm said:
Frag said:
I read his "disclaimer".  Oldest trick in the book.  Claim to not be doing what you then proceed to do. 

I stand by my post.  Just another arrogant little punk who thinks God can't do without HIS generation and their new toys.
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???

No electricity in your building Frag? No microphone at the pulpit? What in the world are you doing on the internet? Does elder Yoder know you are here?
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He don't need no stinkin' 'puter......
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I appreciate your balanced and INTELLECTUALLY HONEST viewpoint.  :)
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I try not to be too obtuse.  That position is already taken. :D

Tarheel Baptist said:
While I don't agree with everything, I agree with his underlying point....there needs to be some change in methodology if the fundamental Baptist movement is going to reach the next generation(s).
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I agree that methods certainly may require tweaking in order to "be all things to all men", but the basic message never changes (to which I'm sure you'd heartily agree).  I just think that the simplicity of the gospel is suited for an audible presentation format, rather than visual.  I'll spare you the verbose reasons for why that it is, much to your thankfulness I'm sure. :D

Tarheel Baptist said:
I think the young man will develop a following of some of the younger leaders in Baptist fundamentalism....I hope he keeps a humble, teachable spirit...which leads me to a problem he didn't directly address. And that's the arrogance and dogmatism often reflected in the so called big name leaders of the movement. That attitude of don't correct me because the man of God isn't wrong will not fly with the younger...under 30 generation.
Servant leadership is needed and wanted in our movement. not to mention that type leadership is ordained and modeled in Scripture.
Click to expand...

There's no dout that the younger generation today doesn't just blindly accept the Bible as authoritative, but have to have the "why" element answered.  The old guard doesn't like to deal with the "why" question, but as good fundamentalists are want to do, they demand instant acceptance to dogma.  I see certain requirements for this attitude when it comes to the fundamentals of the faith, which are so clearly manifest in the totality of the Scriptures, but some of the fringe doctrines (usually related to issues of "separation".....ie, pants, music style, Bible version, etc) need to be addressed from the "why" perspective with more than shallow platitudes and/or loud demands of "just listen to the mannagawd".  There's too much information available at an instant which refutes or exposes such anti-intellectual clap-trap for the young people to just swallow it hook line and sinker.  That makes the quasi-legalist work harder to justify his eisegesis, and the pride inherent in such an authoritarian position resists being questioned.  The sad thing is, one of the requirements of holding the office of pastor is being "apt to teach", which requires patience and tenderness with those who are just feeling along and finding their way.
 
Just John said:
pastorryanhayden said:
snip

If there is a legitimate difference between my generation of pastors and those before it is that we have access to the internet, so we can look over fences very easily.  It's also becoming increasingly hard to lead by deliberately withholding information.  Both of those things make a huge difference.  But we aren't different, it's all circumstantial.
Click to expand...

I'll just be a bit more more blatant. The wide access to information we have today just plain makes it harder to pull the wool over people's eyes any longer. When you can Google a sermon illustration a pastor tries to pawn off as his own, inflated membership/attendance figures, peevish insults made online or any number of other on-line issues, a pastor's credibility is under even more scrutiny today. Just think, what if some enlightened skulls of mush from Frag's church see's what he posts here on the FFF? Theyjust might take wings and fly. ;D

Eventually there will be fewer and fewer people who listen to "preacher" say you not to go on the internet.
Click to expand...

Glad for the accountability.  Any pastor who is trying to "pull the wool over people's eyes" ought to be exposed.  Several of your evangelical heroes come to mind....

A pastor's credibility has ALWAYS been under intense scrutiny.  Ask any PK.  Again, not a bad thing, unless the scrutinizer is a scorner -- then I don't care who you are, you will never be good enough for them.

My take on subjects here on the forum is consistent with my take on the same subjects when I address them at my church (both in private conversation and public preaching).  JJ, when you exchanged the doctrine of the holiness of God for your adoration of this sinful culture, it cost you a lot of common sense.  Of course you want the article's author to be right -- because then it makes what you did seem OK. 

If you would unplug your Ipad, turn off your Ipod, mute your Iphone, and find your old KJ Bible and read it, you might actually eventually figure out that you have bought into a counterfeit Christianity  (it is easier read if you first reach up and remove sheep clippings from your eyes).

 
Frag said:
Just John said:
pastorryanhayden said:
snip

If there is a legitimate difference between my generation of pastors and those before it is that we have access to the internet, so we can look over fences very easily.  It's also becoming increasingly hard to lead by deliberately withholding information.  Both of those things make a huge difference.  But we aren't different, it's all circumstantial.
Click to expand...

I'll just be a bit more more blatant. The wide access to information we have today just plain makes it harder to pull the wool over people's eyes any longer. When you can Google a sermon illustration a pastor tries to pawn off as his own, inflated membership/attendance figures, peevish insults made online or any number of other on-line issues, a pastor's credibility is under even more scrutiny today. Just think, what if some enlightened skulls of mush from Frag's church see's what he posts here on the FFF? Theyjust might take wings and fly. ;D

Eventually there will be fewer and fewer people who listen to "preacher" say you not to go on the internet.
Click to expand...

Glad for the accountability.  Any pastor who is trying to "pull the wool over people's eyes" ought to be exposed.  Several of your evangelical heroes come to mind....

A pastor's credibility has ALWAYS been under intense scrutiny.  Ask any PK.  Again, not a bad thing, unless the scrutinizer is a scorner -- then I don't care who you are, you will never be good enough for them.

My take on subjects here on the forum is consistent with my take on the same subjects when I address them at my church (both in private conversation and public preaching).  JJ, when you exchanged the doctrine of the holiness of God for your adoration of this sinful culture, it cost you a lot of common sense.  Of course you want the article's author to be right -- because then it makes what you did seem OK. 

If you would unplug your Ipad, turn off your Ipod, mute your Iphone, and find your old KJ Bible and read it, you might actually eventually figure out that you have bought into a counterfeit Christianity  (it is easier read if you first reach up and remove sheep clippings from your eyes).
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Dude, why so angry? I'm one of those evangelicals who likes you.  :)

iPad? Check.
iPhone? Check.
iPod? Nada.
KJVersion? Somewhere. Sentimental reasons. It was my mom's. I loved my mom.

When you get in a better mood tell me those things I "adore" about "this sinful culture". (There are a lot of "sinful cultures"). Until then, relax. We have always had some fun here....going back to your FFF Internet Class on Cross-Dressing.  :)
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Ransom said:
http://reformingbaptist.blogspot.com/2013/04/northland-ccm-fundamentalism-separation.html

Northland's perspective:
http://sharperiron.org/article/northland-changing-chancellors-perspective-from-dr-les-ollila



All righty . . . so basically NIU had a presence at a popular music concert, and Lou-ser Martuneac and various other psycho-fundies had steam shooting out of their ears?
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That about covers it..... :D
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If Martuneac-the-Maniac is agin' it I'm probably for it!  (I recently found he made me a "category" all of my own on his blog with two entries . I was so proud. :)
 
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