How IFB's can reach and keep the 30 and under generation....

rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I get speak the truth in love from Ephesians 4....because that's where it is.... :)
rsc2a is purposely missing the point.....which in reality is not missing the point, I guess.

My point is that love without truth OR truth without love make for incomplete Christianity.
Click to expand...

I didn't miss the point. Here...I'll repeat it:

Paul's teaching is pretty clear in that passage. You can have truth 100% nailed. You can have all the doctrine right in the world. You can't have all the knowledge of the angels. You can be able to quote the entire Bible memory and exegete every passage faithfully...

...but if you don't love people, all that other stuff is worthless.

So Paul is pretty clear...the "main thing" is not doctrine; it is love.

The guy in the link you posted...he explicitly stated that the "main thing" is doctrine. He's wrong.
[/quote]

You did miss the point, I believe. He say's I've heard the statement...

I've heard the saying "Keep the main thing the main thing, and the main thing is soul winning"...and while I agree with the heart of that statement (Lk. 19:10) I propose an amendation... "Keep the main thing the main thing, and the main thing is doctrine" because what's the point of evangelizing if we have the wrong message? What's the point in discipling if we're teaching false doctrine?
His context is the Baptist fundamentalist movement losing/not reaching the 30 and under generation.
His context is the Baptist fundamentalist movement's 'soulwinning is everything" mantra.
His point is that the doctrine of the Baptist Fundamentalist movement has appeal to this generation.

I'm pretty certain the writer would agree that everything we do should be motivated and executed 'in love'.

As usual, you are 'straining a gnat'.....and missing the point.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I get speak the truth in love from Ephesians 4....because that's where it is.... :)
rsc2a is purposely missing the point.....which in reality is not missing the point, I guess.

My point is that love without truth OR truth without love make for incomplete Christianity.
Click to expand...

I didn't miss the point. Here...I'll repeat it:

Paul's teaching is pretty clear in that passage. You can have truth 100% nailed. You can have all the doctrine right in the world. You can't have all the knowledge of the angels. You can be able to quote the entire Bible memory and exegete every passage faithfully...

...but if you don't love people, all that other stuff is worthless.

So Paul is pretty clear...the "main thing" is not doctrine; it is love.

The guy in the link you posted...he explicitly stated that the "main thing" is doctrine. He's wrong.
Click to expand...

You did miss the point, I believe. He say's I've heard the statement...

I've heard the saying "Keep the main thing the main thing, and the main thing is soul winning"...and while I agree with the heart of that statement (Lk. 19:10) I propose an amendation... "Keep the main thing the main thing, and the main thing is doctrine" because what's the point of evangelizing if we have the wrong message? What's the point in discipling if we're teaching false doctrine?
His context is the Baptist fundamentalist movement losing/not reaching the 30 and under generation.
His context is the Baptist fundamentalist movement's 'soulwinning is everything" mantra.
His point is that the doctrine of the Baptist Fundamentalist movement has appeal to this generation.

I'm pretty certain the writer would agree that everything we do should be motivated and executed 'in love'.

As usual, you are 'straining a gnat'.....and missing the point.[/quote]

Yes. I read it the first time. The main thing is not doctrine. That is something Paul explicitly states in that passage. The main thing is love. If you want to reach the 30 and under generation, show love to others. Doctrine is secondary to love.

If you want to know why Baptist Fundamentalism is losing so many people, it's because of this attitude. They are so concerned about doctrinal purity that they completely forget about love. They might separate from people who fail to separate from people who fail to separate from those who don't flog their male congregants for letting their hair touch their ears in order to remain doctrinally pure, but they also cross the road when they see someone bleeding out and say, "Peace. Be warm and well fed," while moving on their merry way (although they will stop to give a tract to the poor sinner).
 
I think a couple of issues...


"I think all the constant change scares the conservative Christian crowd -- a group cemented in traditions and "Old time religion."

If the old time crowd is the crowd he is a part of, then he is fighting a losing fight.  I don't think tradition or contemporary are wrong, just different paths.  I think both styles of Christianity have their own set of problems.


"They seem to be wondering if the Baptist vehicle is the right one to take them to that ultimate destination of accomplishing something for God."

I take this as a newer style of performance based Christianity.  Same old problem of being sanctified by actions or works and not by the Spirit.


"They know if they ditch the Baptist church and go up the street to the non-denominational church they're probably gonna have to compromise things they know to be biblical."

He does not say what those things are. Quite a broad brush, imho.


"We're not "Peculiar people" because we live three decades behind the present, but because we are disciples of Christ who love one another."

Very true...
 
rsc2a said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I get speak the truth in love from Ephesians 4....because that's where it is.... :)
rsc2a is purposely missing the point.....which in reality is not missing the point, I guess.

My point is that love without truth OR truth without love make for incomplete Christianity.
Click to expand...

I didn't miss the point. Here...I'll repeat it:

Paul's teaching is pretty clear in that passage. You can have truth 100% nailed. You can have all the doctrine right in the world. You can't have all the knowledge of the angels. You can be able to quote the entire Bible memory and exegete every passage faithfully...

...but if you don't love people, all that other stuff is worthless.

So Paul is pretty clear...the "main thing" is not doctrine; it is love.

The guy in the link you posted...he explicitly stated that the "main thing" is doctrine. He's wrong.
Click to expand...

You did miss the point, I believe. He say's I've heard the statement...

I've heard the saying "Keep the main thing the main thing, and the main thing is soul winning"...and while I agree with the heart of that statement (Lk. 19:10) I propose an amendation... "Keep the main thing the main thing, and the main thing is doctrine" because what's the point of evangelizing if we have the wrong message? What's the point in discipling if we're teaching false doctrine?
His context is the Baptist fundamentalist movement losing/not reaching the 30 and under generation.
His context is the Baptist fundamentalist movement's 'soulwinning is everything" mantra.
His point is that the doctrine of the Baptist Fundamentalist movement has appeal to this generation.

I'm pretty certain the writer would agree that everything we do should be motivated and executed 'in love'.

As usual, you are 'straining a gnat'.....and missing the point.
Click to expand...

Yes. I read it the first time. The main thing is not doctrine. That is something Paul explicitly states in that passage. The main thing is love. If you want to reach the 30 and under generation, show love to others. Doctrine is secondary to love.

If you want to know why Baptist Fundamentalism is losing so many people, it's because of this attitude. They are so concerned about doctrinal purity that they completely forget about love. They might separate from people who fail to separate from people who fail to separate from those who don't flog their male congregants for letting their hair touch their ears in order to remain doctrinally pure, but they also cross the road when they see someone bleeding out and say, "Peace. Be warm and well fed," while moving on their merry way (although they will stop to give a tract to the poor sinner).
[/quote]

I do not dispute that some in Baptist Fundamentalism have not been loving in their attitude toward the world and 'sinners'.
But you use the extreme stereotypical examples to form a straw man in addressing this issue...IMO.

Extremism is almost always wrong...and to carry your doctrine is secondary to love argument to its extreme, you only have to go to the liberal, neo-orthodox wing of American Christianity.
The ultimate act of love is to tell a lost person the truth.

 
Mathew Ward said:
I think a couple of issues...


"I think all the constant change scares the conservative Christian crowd -- a group cemented in traditions and "Old time religion."

If the old time crowd is the crowd he is a part of, then he is fighting a losing fight.  I don't think tradition or contemporary are wrong, just different paths.  I think both styles of Christianity have their own set of problems.


"They seem to be wondering if the Baptist vehicle is the right one to take them to that ultimate destination of accomplishing something for God."

I take this as a newer style of performance based Christianity.  Same old problem of being sanctified by actions or works and not by the Spirit.


"They know if they ditch the Baptist church and go up the street to the non-denominational church they're probably gonna have to compromise things they know to be biblical."

He does not say what those things are. Quite a broad brush, imho.


"We're not "Peculiar people" because we live three decades behind the present, but because we are disciples of Christ who love one another."

Very true...
Click to expand...

So, your answer is yes and no?  :D
 
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]I do not dispute that some in Baptist Fundamentalism have not been loving in their attitude toward the world and 'sinners'. But you use the extreme stereotypical examples to form a straw man in addressing this issue...IMO.[/quote]

It's only a straw man if it's isn't true...

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Extremism is almost always wrong...and to carry your doctrine is secondary to love argument to its extreme, you only have to go to the liberal, neo-orthodox wing of American Christianity. [/quote]

To carry the doctrine is secondary to love argument to its extreme is to mirror the words of Paul.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The ultimate act of love is to tell a lost person the truth.[/quote]

The ultimate act of love is to die for someone...
 
Castor Muscular said:
Add "Gangnam Style" to the list of hymns.
Click to expand...
That'll be out like the macarena, before you can get the mp3 file to your sound guy.

Anishinabe

 
rsc2a said:
The ultimate act of love is to die for someone...
Click to expand...

So are you going to die for Tarheel to prove your love?

Sorry I couldn't reisit.  ;D
 
A couple of places I totally agree with, the term 'relevant' is somewhat over used in this culture but....

Preach Principles, Not Standards:
Instead of preaching against the movie theater, elaborate on the importance of Psalm 101:3 "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes." Then let the people come to their own conclusions about what standards they need to put in place to help them keep that Biblical principle.
Click to expand...

Stay Relevant:
Sometimes it feels like Fundamentalism is stuck in a time capsule. This worked better before the internet. Now, information is so accessible we can hop online at any time and see just how old-fashioned and out of touch we seem. The only thing about me that I want to be old-fashioned is my doctrine. Otherwise I want to live in the here and now (1 Cor. 9:19-22).
Click to expand...
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
A couple of places I totally agree with, the term 'relevant' is somewhat over used in this culture but....

Preach Principles, Not Standards:
Instead of preaching against the movie theater, elaborate on the importance of Psalm 101:3 "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes." Then let the people come to their own conclusions about what standards they need to put in place to help them keep that Biblical principle.
Click to expand...

Stay Relevant:
Sometimes it feels like Fundamentalism is stuck in a time capsule. This worked better before the internet. Now, information is so accessible we can hop online at any time and see just how old-fashioned and out of touch we seem. The only thing about me that I want to be old-fashioned is my doctrine. Otherwise I want to live in the here and now (1 Cor. 9:19-22).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Principles will keep you relevant...
 
Give them the Gospel, and the Bible, and God will 'keep' them.
Very few of the young adults, that I have led to the Lord in the last 20 years, have not continued to follow Christ.  I have never assumed that they were supposed to come to my church.  In the last several weeks, I have talked to several people, one of whom, I led to the Lord in 1992.  He goes to a church near his house, and I don't worry about him, he belongs to God.  We had lunch on Wed.  I visited the church of a lady I led to the Lord in '08, on last Sunday, she is doing fine, and the whole church testified that she is a blessing to them.  So be it  I didn't pick her church.  She chose a mbc church, that is right on eternal security, halelujah!  She gets a little extra music  is all. ;D
I don't care where God sends them to minister, when someone is born again, they are a minister wherever they go.
Our church has added youth lately.  The word in the tribes is that we will train troubled young men, so they are sent to us.  The most recent one, has had his grandfather saved, 2 brothers saved, and his mom healed of cancer since he came...he ain't goin anywhere. 
I see homes where the kids know that their parents don't follow Jesus, and these often leave as young adults, but the problem is in their home. 
  Young people like to be busy, accomplishing something.  Give them a ministry (not nag them into helping some other soured soul with theirs) that they have to 'step up' to, and let em grow...you won't have to worry about them.
Just a few thoughts.
Anishinabe
 
[quote author=JustABigKid][Yes keep your doctrine, Yes keep your standards, Yes keep your KJV Bible. But be like Paul and make the changes necessary to be more effective to those around you. [/quote]

:-X
 
I hope Frag, Alayman and a few others still in the movement will give their input. Some on FB thought he article was on target....others dug in their heels and resisted any call for change.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I hope Frag, Alayman and a few others still in the movement will give their input. Some on FB thought he article was on target....others dug in their heels and resisted any call for change.
Click to expand...

Over all I'd say I agree with it more than disagree.  I particularly thought he nailed point number 2 about "principles".  I came to that same conclusion about 5 or 6 years ago.  The whole thing of ranting about the movie theater but allowing video rentals was so asinine that it is hard to believe that people actually thought that way.  Teaching people to guard their heart (and not just rely on "standards"), and having them apply principled reason to situations requires discernment and a little more thoughtfulness in the approach to the complexity of life, but in the end it allows a person to be much more principled in their applications.  The main reason the old guard doesn't want to do that, and the reason they resist change, is twofold.  First, old people (and those resistant to change in general) don't like to admit they may have had it wrong.  Secondly, let's face it, there's a whole lot of self-righteous folk out there who'd rather have their pedigree and lists so that they can check them off and feel like they're being "good Christians", while at the same time being able to point out the "neos".  It's an enticing trap.

Where I'd caution him to maybe go slow is the whole notion that the soundbyte generational approach to communication (which video, drama, etc, lends itself to) is not the best method to capture true attention.  The word of God, rightly divided, brings maturation and sanctification.  We don't need to add to it.  I'm not saying that NO technology (videos et al) should ever be used in worship, but the younger trend is to use visual stimulation to hold attention, and I believe that is a seductive but faulty assumption.

Lastly, and maybe tangentially related, I think I notice a touch of narcissism in the whole tone of the article.  It seems to make all the pleas to the old guard from the perspective of the young.  But the church is composed of much more than just the gen-x folk.  Some of those "relevant" pieces that the pastor cites are actually hitting home with a portion of the crowd.  I see all kinds of dated references to the 80's in marketing of all sorts of commercials.  Maybe rather than thinking that the church centers around youth, the author should try to do a little contemplation of what those reference mean to a different demographic.
 
I see alot of good stuff in that article. Here is a particular segment of the 20-30 yr population that I would like to focus on for this post...

Churches would do well to have an intentional debriefing of their Bible college students. Too often, when a Bible college student comes back home or is fresh into a ministry, they have difficulty understanding the difference between institutional policies/rules and genuine standards. The two are not the same.

20-30s somethings post-college students are still working through the applications of their beliefs. Many are idealistic and have internal conflicts while deciphering life outside the "sanitized" walls.

Bible Colleges are political entities. Their standards' list is often comprised of elements to draw lines where the biggest loyal, supporting pastors demand. Bible Colleges have to cater to a wide variety of churches. In so doing, we get silliness like requiring the KJV to be used as the exclusive text behind the pulpit and in the classroom.

If you need proof, then follow how churches and other Bible Colleges are reacting to Northland's common-sense biblical approach. It cuts across the grain of pseudo-spiritual institutional manipulations.
 
Question: Is the writer speaking of keeping the 20 to 30 yr olds who are already attending church? That's what it seems to me.



 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I hope Frag, Alayman and a few others still in the movement will give their input. Some on FB thought he article was on target....others dug in their heels and resisted any call for change.
Click to expand...

Interesting that the author purports to speak for all 20-30 somethings.  The arrogance of the article is embarrassing.  It comes across as "do this or we will leave". 

Sad day in which we live.  Somehow Christians have been able to gather together and enjoy pure and purposeful worship for hundreds of years BEFORE our recent advancement in technology, yet now the narcissistic message from a new generation is this -- "We are the first ones to get it right!  Learn from us or we are leaving." 

Here is a thought.  Why not learn from your Christian grandparents?  Why not learn from the previous generation?  Stop demanding entertainment and start developing character!  If you want a cotton candy Christianity, then LEAVE!  You cannot feed an army on cotton candy. 

Having said that, God has blessed our church with MANY 20-30 year old couples who have not become a slave to the "golden calf" mentality of worship.  They want conservative, Bible based, traditional worship.  And if I did change to what the author would wish for all churches to become -- THEY WOULD LEAVE and find a good conservative church. 

Pastors -- get a clue.  Stop letting a minority of hip-hop carnal 20 something Christians talk you into overhauling your church services.  And if you do -- no problem.  I will be glad to welcome your 40-60 something tithing conservative high-wage earning traditional worship loving members into my conservative Baptist church!!!  :)
 
[quote author=Frag]Pastors -- get a clue.  Stop letting a minority of hip-hop carnal 20 something Christians talk you into overhauling your church services.  And if you do -- no problem.  I will be glad to welcome your 40-60 something tithing conservative high-wage earning traditional worship loving members into my conservative Baptist church!!!  :)[/quote]

Well, at least you are honest about it...
 
Frag said:
Interesting that the author purports to speak for all 20-30 somethings.
Click to expand...

Very first words:

****DISCLAIMER: I know I don't speak for every Baptist 20-30 year old. Also, unless explicitly mentioned in the article, I'm not referencing any particular ministries****

So much for your take on the article.  ::)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top