"Getting Saved"

[Timothy]

Mark 16:16  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

Okay, so you have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved.

John 5:33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.

Oh, wait, okay, you need to believe John the Baptist in order to be saved.

Acts 2:21  And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Ok, scratch the baptism, belief, and John the Baptist stuff.  All you have to do is call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Wow, okay, scratch that again.  Believe in the Lord Jesus and not only will YOU be saved, but your whole household, too!

Romans 10:9  If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Wow, now it's getting complicated.  You don't have to believe in Jesus.  You have to say, "Jesus is Lord" out loud, and believe that God raised him from the dead.  THEN you'll be saved.

1 Timothy 2:15  But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Okay, there's an exception for women.  They have to have babies, AND continue in faith, love, and holiness in order to be saved.

Or maybe it's a combination of all of the above.  Okay, so let's recount what you must do to be saved:

1. Believe in something
2. Be baptized
3. Believe John the Baptist
4. Call on the name of the Lord
5. Believe in the Lord Jesus (bonus - your household gets saved, too)
6. Say out loud, "Jesus is Lord"
7. Believe God raised him from the dead
8. Exception for women:  They must have babies and be good and holy. 

Got that?  That's how you get saved.

A vast majority of NT passages mention faith (or believing) as the only condition for eternal life. As for these passages and others that seem to teach differently, there are logical explanations that reveal what really is being said.

 

[rsc2a]

I absolutely believe in ultimate Truth. I also acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes we don't know all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

I said absolute truth not "absolute" "ultimate Truth." Do you believe absolute truth is available to believe today?

I only changed the wording so I didn't say I absolutely believe in absolute Truth.

Do I believe it is available to believe today? Sure...you can believe in Jesus. Your ideas about Him are likely flawed (like mine and the rest of humanity's), but if you believe in Him, you believe in absolute Truth. (And there is the discussion about what "believe" means...)

Just because your belief is flawed, doesn't mean everyone's is flawed.

No. Reality says that everyone's belief is flawed. You cannot understand the person sitting beside you. What makes me think you can fully get someone who walked the earth 2000 years ago?

[quote author=christundivided]Is what you believe about Jesus important? In other words, could someone believe something "false" about Christ?[/quote]

Yes and yes.

[quote author=christundivided]If these people believe something "false" about Christ, would that constitute the ideals of "another Christ"?[/quote]

In one sense, sure. In another, not really.

 

[rsc2a]

Mark 16:16  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

Okay, so you have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved.

John 5:33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.

Oh, wait, okay, you need to believe John the Baptist in order to be saved.

Acts 2:21  And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Ok, scratch the baptism, belief, and John the Baptist stuff.  All you have to do is call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Wow, okay, scratch that again.  Believe in the Lord Jesus and not only will YOU be saved, but your whole household, too!

Romans 10:9  If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Wow, now it's getting complicated.  You don't have to believe in Jesus.  You have to say, "Jesus is Lord" out loud, and believe that God raised him from the dead.  THEN you'll be saved.

1 Timothy 2:15  But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Okay, there's an exception for women.  They have to have babies, AND continue in faith, love, and holiness in order to be saved.

Or maybe it's a combination of all of the above.  Okay, so let's recount what you must do to be saved:

1. Believe in something
2. Be baptized
3. Believe John the Baptist
4. Call on the name of the Lord
5. Believe in the Lord Jesus (bonus - your household gets saved, too)
6. Say out loud, "Jesus is Lord"
7. Believe God raised him from the dead
8. Exception for women:  They must have babies and be good and holy. 

Got that?  That's how you get saved.

Stop believing all the Bible and only believe those parts that we tell you to selectively believe!

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Timothy]A vast majority of NT passages mention faith (or believing) as the only condition for eternal life.[/quote]

Have you done an actual survey to verify this "fact" because I doubt it is true.

[quote author=Timothy]As for these passages and others that seem to teach differently, there are logical explanations that reveal what really is being said.[/quote]

Yes, there is. Jesus saves. There are many methods He uses to bring about salvation.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Jesus saves. There are many methods He uses to bring about salvation.

And we are not privy to all the methods Jesus may use.  Some people just don't get that, but IMO, that boils down to a lack of respect for the ultimate sovereignty of God. 

 

[Timothy]

Many methods? What in the world! ???  I could accept perhaps many perspectives, but methods sounds like multiple ways to Jesus. There is only ONE narrow way, not multiple.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

B E L I E V E (faith, trust)

Explain it multiple ways, go about it at many angles, share it from different perspectives - everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

 

[rsc2a]

Jesus saves. There are many methods He uses to bring about salvation.

And we are not privy to all the methods Jesus may use.  Some people just don't get that, but IMO, that boils down to a lack of respect for the ultimate sovereignty of God.

I am reminded of...

"Your sins are forgiven." - Jesus
"What? You can't say that! You're doing it all wrong!" - the scribes
*Jesus rolls His eyes*
"Fine then. Get up and walk. You guys happy now?" - Jesus

 

[rsc2a]

Many methods? What in the world! ???  I could accept perhaps many perspectives, but methods sounds like multiple ways to Jesus. There is only ONE narrow way, not multiple.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

B E L I E V E (faith, trust)

Explain it multiple ways, go about it at many angles, share it from different perspectives - everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

CM just cited a bunch of verses that show many ways. I could also cite a bunch more that show even different ways.

 

[Castor Muscular]

CM just cited a bunch of verses that show many ways. I could also cite a bunch more that show even different ways.

Like I said, IMO, it all boils down to refusing to acknowledge fully the sovereignty of God.  I came to terms with that just months after being saved.  I remember discussing with someone that I didn't understand why God would institute a system where his people would slaughter so many poor animals in ritual sacrifice.  It seemed cruel to me at the time (I had leftover liberal mental disease).  Then suddenly it dawned on me.  He's God.  He can do whatever he wants with his creation.  My opinion doesn't mean diddly.  Years later, when I dealt with the issue of predestination, it came very easily to me, because I was already totally comfortable with the idea of God being totally sovereign over his creation.  Indeed, I realized that the free will God isn't a God at all, but a pathetic wimp. 

 

[Timothy]

CM just cited a bunch of verses that show many ways. I could also cite a bunch more that show even different ways.

Like I said, IMO, it all boils down to refusing to acknowledge fully the sovereignty of God.  I came to terms with that just months after being saved.  I remember discussing with someone that I didn't understand why God would institute a system where his people would slaughter so many poor animals in ritual sacrifice.  It seemed cruel to me at the time (I had leftover liberal mental disease).  Then suddenly it dawned on me.  He's God.  He can do whatever he wants with his creation.  My opinion doesn't mean diddly.  Years later, when I dealt with the issue of predestination, it came very easily to me, because I was already totally comfortable with the idea of God being totally sovereign over his creation.  Indeed, I realized that the free will God isn't a God at all, but a pathetic wimp.

How do you explain Galatians 1:9 "As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!" ?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Maybe there is an odd strain of hyper-calvinism in some people's view of God's sovereignty, and if the gospel is not the necessary instrument to bring people to Christ then we certainly are wasting our time sending missionaries.  Or even worse, we are giving them more knowledge that they will refuse and by which heap up greater damnation.


Here's a thought, maybe in God's sovereignty He has appointed means by which He will regenerate the elect, and those means are delineated in, of all things, the Bible via the great commission.  Whodathunkit!

 

[rsc2a]

CM just cited a bunch of verses that show many ways. I could also cite a bunch more that show even different ways.

Like I said, IMO, it all boils down to refusing to acknowledge fully the sovereignty of God.  I came to terms with that just months after being saved.

That and some bit of pride. *I* believed (or whatever) so *I* got saved. Between that and the control (which stems from your mention of sovereignty), people have to have some way to control how and/or who "gets in".

[quote author=Castor Muscular]I remember discussing with someone that I didn't understand why God would institute a system where his people would slaughter so many poor animals in ritual sacrifice.  It seemed cruel to me at the time (I had leftover liberal mental disease).  Then suddenly it dawned on me.  He's God.  He can do whatever he wants with his creation.  My opinion doesn't mean diddly.[/quote]

While I agree with your point, I think it's a bit more rational than that.

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Years later, when I dealt with the issue of predestination, it came very easily to me, because I was already totally comfortable with the idea of God being totally sovereign over his creation.  Indeed, I realized that the free will God isn't a God at all, but a pathetic wimp. [/quote]

I came to a comfort with predestination simultaneously from both logical and a theological directions, even though I was definitely raised on a diet of free will. What was nice about how I arrived there is that the logical and theological served to reinforce each other, making the argument for each stronger IMO.

OTOH, until recently, my wife was on the free will bandwagon. It was her formal study of biology (i.e. the logical route)  that is leading her away from said bandwagon even though I've been trying to convince her for years. Now that she's seeing it from the logical direction, she's starting to see the theological implications and how they are evident in Scripture.

 

[rsc2a]

Maybe there is an odd strain of hyper-calvinism in some people's view of God's sovereignty, and if the gospel is not the necessary instrument to bring people to Christ...

How is "good news" an instrument for anything? It's a proclamation, not an action.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]...then we certainly are wasting our time sending missionaries.  Or even worse, we are giving them more knowledge that they will refuse and by which heap up greater damnation.[/quote]

When one cannot make a convincing argument, they can always resort to arguing with a caricature. If one stops treating salvation like it's just a "get out of hell free" card, it begins to make more sense.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Here's a thought, maybe in God's sovereignty He has appointed means by which He will regenerate the elect, and those means are delineated in, of all things, the Bible via the great commission.  Whodathunkit![/quote]

CM listed several possible choices, straight out of Scripture. Why do you keep limiting it to one?

 

[Castor Muscular]

How do you explain Galatians 1:9 "As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!" ?

What's there to explain?  The Gospel is the Gospel.  He's saying that let those who pervert it be under God's curse. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Like I said, IMO, it all boils down to refusing to acknowledge fully the sovereignty of God.  I came to terms with that just months after being saved...

That and some bit of pride. *I* believed (or whatever) so *I* got saved. Between that and the control (which stems from your mention of sovereignty), people have to have some way to control how and/or who "gets in".

I know you won't recognize this since it is a core tenet of reformed belief, lol, but...


Question: How is the word made effectual to salvation?

Answer: The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the word, an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of building them up in holiness and comfort through faith unto salvation.


—The Westminster Shorter Catechism


I could cite much more reformed thinking in this area, by hardcore predestinarians, but you don't want the truth, you want to believe a lie.

 

[ALAYMAN]

How is "good news" an instrument for anything? It's a proclamation, not an action.

Why do you not accept the plain reading of Scriptures on the matter?  The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation.  I didn't say that, God did.

[quote author=rsc2a]
CM listed several possible choices, straight out of Scripture. Why do you keep limiting it to one?
[/quote]

What is sad is that in that list was numerous misreadings and misapplications of Scripture.  When you abuse Scripture in favor of winning an argument it goes a long way in demonstrating your disregard for the "authorial intent".

 

[rsc2a]

Like I said, IMO, it all boils down to refusing to acknowledge fully the sovereignty of God.  I came to terms with that just months after being saved...

That and some bit of pride. *I* believed (or whatever) so *I* got saved. Between that and the control (which stems from your mention of sovereignty), people have to have some way to control how and/or who "gets in".

I know you won't recognize this since it is a core tenet of reformed belief, lol, but...


Question: How is the word made effectual to salvation?

Answer: The Spirit of God maketh the reading, but especially the preaching of the word, an effectual means of convincing and converting sinners, and of building them up in holiness and comfort through faith unto salvation.


—The Westminster Shorter Catechism


I could cite much more reformed thinking in this area, by hardcore predestinarians, but you don't want the truth, you want to believe a lie.

See that underlined part. Now read this.

 

[ALAYMAN]

See that underlined part. Now read this.

You claim to be reformed but deny the reformed concept of ordinary means.  Why am I not surprised?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Why do you not accept the plain reading of Scriptures on the matter?  The Bible says that it is the power of God unto salvation.  I didn't say that, God did.[/quote]

No...it doesn't say that.

[quote author=ALAYMAN][quote author=rsc2a]
CM listed several possible choices, straight out of Scripture. Why do you keep limiting it to one?
[/quote]

What is sad is that in that list was numerous misreadings and misapplications of Scripture.  When you abuse Scripture in favor of winning an argument it goes a long way in demonstrating your disregard for the "authorial intent". [/quote]

Ahh...so you favor the "ignore the parts we don't like" method of Biblical interpretation.

 

[christundivided]

Maybe there is an odd strain of hyper-calvinism in some people's view of God's sovereignty, and if the gospel is not the necessary instrument to bring people to Christ then we certainly are wasting our time sending missionaries.  Or even worse, we are giving them more knowledge that they will refuse and by which heap up greater damnation.


Here's a thought, maybe in God's sovereignty He has appointed means by which He will regenerate the elect, and those means are delineated in, of all things, the Bible via the great commission.  Whodathunkit!

Exactly... I can't believe I said that....