"Getting Saved"

[lnf]

Personally, I have found that it is important to "personalize" the atonement.  Sure, I get the corporate aspect, and agree with it...but when I was a new widow, struggling to forgive a mentally abusive husband, while trying to deal with a troubled son...I needed to see "me" in the atonement.  And that still holds true for the much-healed me of today...even though God's promises are for all of us, I still need to remember that God's promises are for ME!

 

[Ransom]

Could someone give the forum a quick and concise overview of what the Christus Victor theory of the atonement is? I have notes on the subject, but I can't find them right now; frankly I've found the theory to be rather muddy in what it actually claims.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Could someone give the forum a quick and concise overview of what the Christus Victor theory of the atonement is? I have notes on the subject, but I can't find them right now; frankly I've found the theory to be rather muddy in what it actually claims.

I'm sure that this example is NOT a comprehensive synopsis of all points of divergence, but it is one that I have found is the main point of contention between the two theories:

In reality, the crucifixion was not a substitution, but rather, an act of identification – God dies for us and with us, and we die with Him as well. Christ never said that he was going to the cross instead of us; rather, he says his followers must take up their crosses and follow him (c.f. Lk 9:23). Thus we are co-sufferers with Christ; as Paul says, “I have been crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20). Our hope is that by dying with Christ we can also join in his resurrection – his victory over death. (Rom 6:5, Phil 3:10-11).




Penal Substitution Mischaracterizes God as an Angry Deity in Need of Appeasement

PSM depicts God as unable to forgive human sin unless His thirst for blood is satisfied. Thus, God must be “propitiated” as if He were one of the pagan gods of antiquity who relishes the death of those who offend him. PSM insists that God's righteousness and sense of justice make him unable to tolerate the presence of sinners, and thus He must banish them to eternal suffering.




Yet the Scripture paints a very different picture of God – a God driven by love rather than need for appeasement: “You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.” (Ps 51:16-17). Likewise, Jesus, when confronted by the teachers of the law, quotes scripture saying “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” (Mt 9:13). Christ's entire ministry illustrates the love of a God whose reaction to our shortcomings is not wrath but compassion. Out of love, God became man in Christ and dwelt among tax collectors, prostitutes, and other imperfect people. God doesn't need bloodshed to have relationships with his children.




Furthermore, the version of justice envisioned by PSM is extremely strained. The theory suggests that the death of an innocent party (Christ) makes up for the wrongs of the guilty. But under what system of justice are the guilty exonerated by the suffering of an innocent? In any reasonable legal system, the thought would be repugnant. This mechanism of atonement only works if we see God as having an indiscriminate appetite for blood, but such a conception of God is badly off target for the reasons stated above.




Finally, PSM's vision of the divine-human dynamic looks awfully coercive. Since it is God who sentences us to death under PSM, God is effectively holding our feet to the fires of hell, saying “worship and love me, or I will destroy you.” Thus, PSM promotes a Christian faith that is rooted in the fear of punishment. But we know that our heavenly father approaches us in love, and the Scripture teaches that “perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.” (1 Jn 4:18).




II. The Alternative: Christus Victor

For people steeped in the Western Christian tradition, the penal substitution model (PSM) may seem like the essence of Christianity. But PSM did not gain a central place in Christian theology until John Calvin started peddling the theory in the 17th century – over 1600 years after Christ's time. For the early church, the gospel was first and foremost the message of Christ's triumph over death and evil through his resurrection.vi The Orthodox Church, which has strived to avoid doctrinal innovation over time, adheres to this original view of the gospel, which is sometimes known as “Christus Victor” – Latin for “Christ the conqueror”.




The basic outline of this Christus Victor (CV) approach is as follows:

(1) God the creator of the universe made humans to live abundant lives through fellowship with him.

(2) Enticed by the devil and the powers of evil, humans turned away from godly life and chose to engage in sin.

(3) Sin negates life and causes death – both physical and spiritual.

(4) God took the form of a man in Christ to restore humans to their spiritual callings and to defeat death and the devil through his resurrection from the grave.

(5) Those who join themselves to Christ and live in connection with God will join in his victory over death and have eternal life.

http://exnikhilo.blogspot.com/2012/04/salvation-from-what-penal-substitution.html

So one of the main differences seems to be that CV likes to avoid portraying God as vindictive and wrathful due to his unleashing punishment on Christ.  I must admit, though I've been indoctrinated in PST I have often grappled with the rationale of God transferring His wrath to an innocent party, but, to my limited understanding I am certainly glad for His divine graciousness shown towards me, and eternally grateful for Christ's willingness to stand in my place.

 

[rsc2a]

Here is a good article talking about the two major views of atonement from someone who leans towards PAS but accepts CV as well, with some well-suggested cautionsl.

Interesting bits:

The Christus Victor model has much to commend it. The idea is this: Christ is victor. Christ in his death and resurrection overcame over the hostile powers that hold humanity in subjection, those powers variously understood as the devil, sin, the law, and death. While the model assumes humanity's guilt for getting ourselves into this predicament—beginning with the original sin of Adam and Eve—the theory's anthropology (view of humanity) emphasizes not our guilt but our victimhood, at least the way it is often discussed today. The main human problem is that we are trapped and we need to be rescued: "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery" (Heb. 2:14-15) .

Indeed, we are enslaved to powers beyond our control, both personally and corporately. This model also highlights big picture atonement: Christ's death isn't merely about me and my salvation. It's about the redemption of the cosmos: "He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him" (Col. 2:15).

Many interesting comparisons can be made between the two theories. Both actually include dimensions of personal guilt and victimhood, but as I listen to the discussion today, it seems that Christus Victor highlights our state as victims. Substitutionary atonement focuses on our guilt. In Christus Victor, we are liberated from hostile powers out there. In substitution, we are forgiven, and liberation is from ourselves and our addiction to our sin. Naturally, both models speak to truths of the human condition! And both have nuances worth exploring.

 

[prophet]

I see both escape from the Wrath of God (john 3:36), and from a dead condition (Ephesians 2)  unto a fruitful and victorious life.  I see God demanding blood, w/o which there is NO remission of sins, just not the blood of bulls and goats which can never take away sins, but of Christ's.  I see our trip to Hell substitutionally taken, though His soul was not left in Hell, like mine would be.  I see us saved to take up a cross, fellowship in His suffering, suffer persecution, and even martyrdom.  I see God yearning for restored fellowship with His favored creation, that He crowned with glory and honor.  I see God austere, damning many who claimed His name to the Lake of Fire, though they have done many wonderful works in His name.
IMO, to isolate and magnify one aspect of Salvation over another, is to subvert the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ, our LORD.

Anishinabe

 

[Timothy]

Simple. You come to a realization that you are condemned by God for your sins and that only faith in Jesus Christ can save you. All who believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned. Salvation is a work of God - His Holy Spirit convicts and his children on earth are his hands and feet sharing the gospel message.

 

[prophet]

Simple. You come to a realization that you are condemned by God for your sins and that only faith in Jesus Christ can save you. All who believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned. Salvation is a work of God - His Holy Spirit convicts and his children on earth are his hands and feet sharing the gospel message.

Show me 'Conviction' by the Holy Spirit, please.  Nonsense.  Our own conscience convicts us.  Therefore we are without excuse.

Anishinabe

 

[prophet]

For by grace are ye SAVED through faith.  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Anishinabe

 

[ALAYMAN]

Show me 'Conviction' by the Holy Spirit, please.  Nonsense.  Our own conscience convicts us.  Therefore we are without excuse.

Anishinabe

Joh 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

[rsc2a]

Simple. You come to a realization that you are condemned by God for your sins and that only faith in Jesus Christ can save you.

Only Jesus can save you.

[quote author=Timothy]All who believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned. Salvation is a work of God - His Holy Spirit convicts and his children on earth are his hands and feet sharing the gospel message.[/quote]

Yes. Although the question then becomes "what does 'believe' mean?" or perhaps "what is salvation?" or even "what is the gospel?".

 

[Castor Muscular]

Yes. Although the question then becomes "what does 'believe' mean?" or perhaps "what is salvation?" or even "what is the gospel?".

That depends on what the definition of "is" is. 


(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

 

[subllibrm]

Yes. Although the question then becomes "what does 'believe' mean?" or perhaps "what is salvation?" or even "what is the gospel?".

This was kind of why I made this thread to begin with. I believe without any question that my salvation is wholly of God. I do not get any credit for it. BUT it was an event/experience/time where I went from what I was to what I am (and am becoming). There were conscious decisions going on inside of my head and heart. YET it was all by the will of and for the glory of God and Him alone.

 

[Timothy]

Simple. You come to a realization that you are condemned by God for your sins and that only faith in Jesus Christ can save you.

Only Jesus can save you.

[quote author=Timothy]All who believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned. Salvation is a work of God - His Holy Spirit convicts and his children on earth are his hands and feet sharing the gospel message.

Yes. Although the question then becomes "what does 'believe' mean?" or perhaps "what is salvation?" or even "what is the gospel?".
[/quote]

I agree - only Jesus saves. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." But, Jesus isn't the one condemning the world. And, it is the Love of God that gave us the son (John 3:16). Plus, even in Psalms we read, "From the LORD comes deliverance. May your blessing be on your people." I could go on ....

Now, Prophet, I believe the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. It is our choice to choose or ignore this. See John 16:8-etc. regarding the Holy Spirit's convicting role. God doesn't twist our arm regarding salvation.

Genuine faith comes by hearing God's word. "... faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." - about Christ ... THE GOSPEL! The death, burial, and resurrection of a Savior! The ONLY Savior sent from a loving God who simply wants us to believe that his blood will wash away our sin.

What is it to believe? I suppose only God and a individual know if they are on the right page regarding Biblical belief. But, if one hears the message, changes their mind regarding sin, and puts their faith in Jesus Christ as the only deliverer from sin -  then that is Biblical belief.

I know some believe in election. Some will say the Holy Spirit convicts convicts some then, not all. But, the Bible says "convict the world of its sin" ... I believe then that all mankind is convicted - and their sin is ignoring this and going their way.

 

[christundivided]

Simple. You come to a realization that you are condemned by God for your sins and that only faith in Jesus Christ can save you.

Only Jesus can save you.

[quote author=Timothy]All who believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned. Salvation is a work of God - His Holy Spirit convicts and his children on earth are his hands and feet sharing the gospel message.

Yes. Although the question then becomes "what does 'believe' mean?" or perhaps "what is salvation?" or even "what is the gospel?".

I agree - only Jesus saves. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." But, Jesus isn't the one condemning the world. And, it is the Love of God that gave us the son (John 3:16). Plus, even in Psalms we read, "From the LORD comes deliverance. May your blessing be on your people." I could go on ....
[/quote]

All the evils perpetrated by the phrase "the Good Pleasure of His will."

Yes. Only God can save. Yet, We do know what pleases Him. We ALSO know what He desires and requires. Just to say "Only Jesus saves" is rather childish and silly when it comes to forming an opinion of the atonement.

A proper view of the atonement ESTABLISHES a person's over all methodology in Christendom. People like rsca only seem to inject doubt. They actually never try to establish anything else. They reject absolute truth as mere fantasy. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=christundivided]Yes. Only God can save. Yet, We do know what pleases Him. We ALSO know what He desires and requires. Just to say "Only Jesus saves" is rather childish...[/quote]


To say that anything else saves is heretical.

[quote author=christundivided]...and silly when it comes to forming an opinion of the atonement.[/quote]

I have an opinion on the Atonement. Remember: "All of the above". Of course, you said that I (along with Wright, Piper, Carson, Sproul, and a host of others) obviously didn't have a clue.

[quote author=christundivided]A proper view of the atonement ESTABLISHES a person's over all methodology in Christendom. [/quote]

My methodology is pretty simple: love God and love others.

[quote author=christundivided]People like rsca only seem to inject doubt. They actually never try to establish anything else. [/quote]

There is a difference in acknowledging uncertainty and injecting doubt. I have no problem saying I don't have all the answers. That's why I can say, "I believe. Help my unbelief." I can do this precisely because I know that I don't have it all figured out.

[quote author=christundivided]They reject absolute truth as mere fantasy. [/quote]

I absolutely believe in ultimate Truth. I also acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes we don't know all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

 

[christundivided]

I absolutely believe in ultimate Truth. I also acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes we don't know all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

I said absolute truth not "absolute" "ultimate Truth." Do you believe absolute truth is available to believe today?

 

[christundivided]

I absolutely believe in ultimate Truth. I also acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes we don't know all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

I said absolute truth not "absolute" "ultimate Truth." Do you believe absolute truth is available to believe today?

My methodology is pretty simple: love God and love others.

I doubt you really love me. Go ahead and tell me know much you love me. Show me the love....

 

[rsc2a]

I absolutely believe in ultimate Truth. I also acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes we don't know all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

I said absolute truth not "absolute" "ultimate Truth." Do you believe absolute truth is available to believe today?

I only changed the wording so I didn't say I absolutely believe in absolute Truth.

Do I believe it is available to believe today? Sure...you can believe in Jesus. Your ideas about Him are likely flawed (like mine and the rest of humanity's), but if you believe in Him, you believe in absolute Truth. (And there is the discussion about what "believe" means...)

 

[christundivided]

I absolutely believe in ultimate Truth. I also acknowledge that we live in a fallen world and that sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes we don't know all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

I said absolute truth not "absolute" "ultimate Truth." Do you believe absolute truth is available to believe today?

I only changed the wording so I didn't say I absolutely believe in absolute Truth.

Do I believe it is available to believe today? Sure...you can believe in Jesus. Your ideas about Him are likely flawed (like mine and the rest of humanity's), but if you believe in Him, you believe in absolute Truth. (And there is the discussion about what "believe" means...)

Just because your belief is flawed, doesn't mean everyone's is flawed.

Is what you believe about Jesus important? In other words, could someone believe something "false" about Christ? If these people believe something "false" about Christ, would that constitute the ideals of "another Christ"?

 

[Castor Muscular]

Mark 16:16  Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

Okay, so you have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved.

John 5:33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.

Oh, wait, okay, you need to believe John the Baptist in order to be saved.

Acts 2:21  And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Ok, scratch the baptism, belief, and John the Baptist stuff.  All you have to do is call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

Acts 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Wow, okay, scratch that again.  Believe in the Lord Jesus and not only will YOU be saved, but your whole household, too!

Romans 10:9  If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Wow, now it's getting complicated.  You don't have to believe in Jesus.  You have to say, "Jesus is Lord" out loud, and believe that God raised him from the dead.  THEN you'll be saved.

1 Timothy 2:15  But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Okay, there's an exception for women.  They have to have babies, AND continue in faith, love, and holiness in order to be saved.

Or maybe it's a combination of all of the above.  Okay, so let's recount what you must do to be saved:

1. Believe in something
2. Be baptized
3. Believe John the Baptist
4. Call on the name of the Lord
5. Believe in the Lord Jesus (bonus - your household gets saved, too)
6. Say out loud, "Jesus is Lord"
7. Believe God raised him from the dead
8. Exception for women:  They must have babies and be good and holy. 

Got that?  That's how you get saved.