Fair and balanced analysis of Trick or Treat for Christians.

[rsc2a]

Hey Alayman!

Did you forget this?

Your point?

You do realize that there is a ditch on both sides don't you?  Antinomianism = bad, license = bad.  Capiche?

Funny. You forgot to mention legalism. I'll just assume that's a Freudian slip.

 

[Biker]

Alayman

I am not sure about my timeframe here, and haven't read it all but plenty enough to know I owe you an apology for assuming you are involved with a church known for sexual perversions (making headlines, multiple offenders) and assuming it is that enviornment you came from. For a long time it didn't seem that way, as I said your moods are fairly level and you're not a drama queen which should have told me I was wrong.
Anyhow I am very sorry for that,  you didn't deserve that. And the reply to you would've been different had I known.

I asked you way back a few times if you were from a church known for it's sexual perversions and you didn't answer. Whether it was true or not, makes no difference pertaining to now except if you got out, good job! That probably means you'd be growing which is the mark of a Christian. Very rare thing. And yes, you've never objected to natural affection between married couples, that should have not been directed to you nor parts of those rants. I hope you will forgive me, I am truly very sorry. Lesson learned.  I may get back to the rest of your post tonight...

 

[ALAYMAN]

Alayman

I am not sure about my timeframe here, and haven't read it all but plenty enough to know I owe you an apology for assuming you are involved with a church known for sexual perversions (making headlines, multiple offenders) and assuming it is that enviornment you came from. For a long time it didn't seem that way, as I said your moods are fairly level and you're not a drama queen which should have told me I was wrong.
Anyhow I am very sorry for that,  you didn't deserve that. And the reply to you would've been different had I known.

I asked you way back a few times if you were from a church known for it's sexual perversions and you didn't answer. Whether it was true or not, makes no difference pertaining to now except if you got out, good job! That probably means you'd be growing which is the mark of a Christian. Very rare thing. And yes, you've never objected to natural affection between married couples, that should have not been directed to you nor parts of those rants. I hope you will forgive me, I am truly very sorry. Lesson learned.  I may get back to the rest of your post tonight...

Good on you for the apology.  Accepted.

My pastor and former pastor are HAC graduates, but neither one is a "100%er", and our church is anything but a clone-church.  As far as being from a church that is "known for sexual perversions" I've told you, there's not ever been a sexual scandal of any sort that I am aware of at my church, and certainly not in the 12+ years I've been there. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

...
Serious question: how do you define "gospel"?

So much more could be said about your intentionally evasive discussion style, but I'll just zero in on this one area.  You ask me to define "the gospel" in your response to my query that you flesh out your definition of "force", which you implemented several times in your most recent post, and have alluded to throughout the conversation.  You use such obfuscation despite the fact that you completely skirt the core of the disagreement.  You allege that I "force" people to my view(s), yet you're still here employing arguments to "force" me to hear your viewpoint and adopt your pro-halloween position.  Irony, thy name is rsc2a. 

 

[rsc2a]

...
Serious question: how do you define "gospel"?

So much more could be said about your intentionally evasive discussion style, but I'll just zero in on this one area.  You ask me to define "the gospel" in your response to my query that you flesh out your definition of "force", which you implemented several times in your most recent post, and have alluded to throughout the conversation.  You use such obfuscation despite the fact that you completely skirt the core of the disagreement.  You allege that I "force" people to my view(s), yet you're still here employing arguments to "force" me to hear your viewpoint and adopt your pro-halloween position.  Irony, thy name is rsc2a.

I zeroed in on this one area because you stated that our primary emphasis should be on spreading the gospel. I completely agree with you on this point, but I realize that words are like suitcases.

Shorthands, in other words, are useful in the same way suitcases are.  They enable us to pick up lots of complicated things and carry them around all together. But we should never forget that the point of doing so, like the point of carrying belongings in a suitcase, is that what has been packed away can then be unpacked and put to use in a new location.

Too much debate about scriptural authority has had the form of people hitting one another with locked suitcases. It is time to unpack our shorthand doctrines, to lay them out and inspect them. Long years in a suitcase may have made some of the contents go moldy. They will benefit from fresh air, and perhaps a hot iron.

Before we start discussing the where we agree and where we disagree, we have to see what we have each packed in the suitcase we carry around called "gospel". In other words, it's kind of pointless to be discussing the "gospel" with each other when we don't even know what each other really means.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I zeroed in on this one area because you stated that our primary emphasis should be on spreading the gospel. I completely agree with you on this point, but I realize that words are like suitcases.

Shorthands, in other words, are useful in the same way suitcases are.  They enable us to pick up lots of complicated things and carry them around all together. But we should never forget that the point of doing so, like the point of carrying belongings in a suitcase, is that what has been packed away can then be unpacked and put to use in a new location.

Too much debate about scriptural authority has had the form of people hitting one another with locked suitcases. It is time to unpack our shorthand doctrines, to lay them out and inspect them. Long years in a suitcase may have made some of the contents go moldy. They will benefit from fresh air, and perhaps a hot iron.

Before we start discussing the where we agree and where we disagree, we have to see what we have each packed in the suitcase we carry around called "gospel". In other words, it's kind of pointless to be discussing the "gospel" with each other when we don't even know what each other really means.

The gospel in the good news that Christ came to save us from our sins (embodied and articulated in I Cor 15:1-4), and to impute righteousness to our account.  He lived a perfect life obedience to the Father in my place, and He died my death for me.  Because of His redemptive work I/we will reign with Him forever.

Now, how are you defining "force"?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The gospel in the good news that Christ came to save us from our sins (embodied and articulated in I Cor 15:1-4), and to impute righteousness to our account.  He lived a perfect life obedience to the Father in my place, and He died my death for me.  Because of His redemptive work I/we will reign with Him forever.[/quote]

Yes. We definitely have different definitions, even though mine is inclusive of yours.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Now, how are you defining "force"?
[/quote]

to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something

 

[Biker]

You need to switch churches.

You need to quit snuggling on couches with men, skinny-dipping with the gang,  cover your wife up a bit better at the beach, and cease from dispensing spiritual advice to me.  Inspect your own house, look in your own mirror.

WOW. I just fully read it. Feel like I need a bath.

Your poor wife, GEEZE! Clean up your mind!

No need to lie. Pick a fault, any fault. But you want homosexuality, better see TBONE for that.

Skinny dipping, why is this a topic. It is NOT SIN in and of itself. Why does scripture offend you so much you keep trying to add sins to it. LET GOD BE THE AUTHOR

Here in the Endurance Capitol of the World, we host the Tour of California. the 2nd Largest Professional bike ride in the world. I am sure Lance Armstrong wore padded shorts when training for the Amgien. Wore his padded shorts while taking a cooling dip in the American River. No one during the hot summers rides hard without taking a dip in the river to cool off. Levi to and Gregg L-  Tour De France winners who trained hard for the Amgien Tour also certainly didn't skinny dip, oh heavens no!! They must've decided to endure chafing of their scrotum instead, the bike shorts padding rubbing it raw allowing the sweat to sting like hell. All for the sake of modesty in the blazing summer heat

We are not animals, we don't just go off at the sight of flesh, especially when vigorous exercise is involved. We eat right and exercise, make love to our wives. Enjoy nature as god intended, keeping it NATURAL. Try it. A wholesome life is in opposition to these perversions you cling to

And don't be stupid, I don't lay with men. I am married to my Best Bud. Stop being a Homo Pervert.

TBONE tried this same vile crap last week adding a new twist to it. That I laid with a grieving friend, and despite his sobbing uncontrollably over the death of his fiancee hours before, I apparently admitted...during his tragedy...I was attracted to him. In a post years ago on another forum, you know it well.
ivanette  was told she was molested " because she is an idiot." New Members need to be warned about the forum sickos.  I should follow thru with downloading the screen shots and just post links

And quit oogling me and/or my wife, and posting all these lies. we are way out of your league. Our honesty and love for the truth means we have nothing in common. Get saved, ask God to sanctify your body and mind. Join us

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]You need to quit...dispensing spiritual advice to me.  Inspect your own house, look in your own mirror.
[/quote]

What an arrogant statement.

The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus:

 

[ALAYMAN]

...<bizarre rant snipped>
And quit oogling me and/or my wife, and posting all these lies. we are way out of your league. Our honesty and love for the truth means we have nothing in common. Get saved, ask God to sanctify your body and mind. Join us

Mike, how many revisions did you make before you settled on this final response?  Why not stick with the <at least 2> former revisions?  Calling me a homo was kinda like the self-loathing homophobes who are over-the-top against all things gay.


Anyways, maybe you should leave this place, as it appears that it's not healthy for you.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]You need to quit...dispensing spiritual advice to me.  Inspect your own house, look in your own mirror.

What an arrogant statement.

The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus:

 

[ALAYMAN]

Yes. We definitely have different definitions, even though mine is inclusive of yours.

How so?  Is there something wrong with how God defines the gospel in His word in I Corinthians 15:1-4?

[quote author=rsc2a]to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something
[/quote]


And how is what I am communicating fundamentally different on this discussion board than you, particularly in regards to your definition of "force"?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]You need to quit...dispensing spiritual advice to me.  Inspect your own house, look in your own mirror.

What an arrogant statement.

The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus:

 

[rsc2a]

Yes. We definitely have different definitions, even though mine is inclusive of yours.

How so?  Is there something wrong with how God defines the gospel in His word in I Corinthians 15:1-4?

I prefer to define it the way that God defines it in Genesis through Revelation.

[quote author=ALAYMAN][quote author=rsc2a]to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something
[/quote]

And how is what I am communicating fundamentally different on this discussion board than you, particularly in regards to your definition of "force"?[/quote]

Seriously?

I"m not compelling, constraining or obliging anyone to do anything based on my conscience, unlike some...

 

[ALAYMAN]

Or maybe I just understand that I don't have everything figured out and understand that I could possibly learn something from anyone, even the vilest of sinners (and I am not referring to Mike). Being a "good person" (whatever that is) doesn't give one a monopoly on the truth.

The issue you're conveniently glossing over, as you attempt to call me out, is that Mike made allegations/insinuations (that were completely unrelated to the topic under discussion, by the way) about me without a shread of evidence, but you ignore that.  Seems like you have an unjust agenda to me.  That's cool with me, it's a free country, but don't expect to not be questioned about such wonky weights and measures in your discernment scales.

I prefer to define it the way that God defines it in Genesis through Revelation.

It seems to me like a bit of equivocation to call the gospel as defined in Scripture by the Apostle Paul (by your implications in this latest response) lacking somehow.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

I prefer to define it the way that God defines it in Genesis through Revelation.

It seems to me like a bit of equivocation to call the gospel as defined in Scripture by the Apostle Paul (by your implications in this latest response) lacking somehow.[/quote]

Paul only wrote four verses?

I'd also point out that the Holy Spirit felt that the entire self-revelation of God was important enough that He inspired the authors to write all of Scriptures.

I also find it remarkably odd that Jesus didn't describe the Gospel in that way even though He declared the Kingdom of God is at hand.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Seriously?

I"m not compelling, constraining or obliging anyone to do anything based on my conscience, unlike some...

I'm not attempting to bind your or anyone else's conscience regarding Halloween.  For goodness sakes, I've always participated in it with my son.  What I have done is twofold.  First I've  suggestee that some "freebirds" have erred (in the name of "liberty") in their esitmation of another person's convictions as they fail to allow for the fact that different people have differing scruples, and that those who have more "conservative" values aren't necessarily legalists.  Good Christian folk can agree to disagree on non-essential Christian praxis. 

Secondly I've asserted that many evangelicals of today make their "meat and drink" the be all and end all of how they determine their practices, without so much as a regard to weightier spiritual matters such as the promulgation of the gospel as well as the edification and consideration of their brethren.

Paul only wrote four verses?

I'd also point out that the Holy Spirit felt that the entire self-revelation of God was important enough that He inspired the authors to write all of Scriptures.

I also find it remarkably odd that Jesus didn't describe the Gospel in that way even though He declared the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Paul (and evangelical Christianity) succinctly has defined the gospel for millenia now, but hey, you go ahead and improve on the simplicity of God's plan of redemption, if you dare. 

After you tinker with and reinvent the wheel, what in the name of Sam Hill does your point have to do with the topic under discussion?

 

[rsc2a]

Seriously?

I"m not compelling, constraining or obliging anyone to do anything based on my conscience, unlike some...

I'm not attempting to bind your or anyone else's conscience regarding Halloween.  For goodness sakes, I've always participated in it with my son.  What I have done is twofold.  First I've  suggestee that some "freebirds" have erred (in the name of "liberty") in their esitmation of another person's convictions as they fail to allow for the fact that different people have differing scruples, and that those who have more "conservative" values aren't necessarily legalists.  Good Christian folk can agree to disagree on non-essential Christian praxis. 

I haven't read anything where any "freebirds" criticized another's personal convictions. What I have seen criticized is bad logic and selective reasoning on the part of those who try to justify their stricter views. I've also seen criticism where those with stricter views try to hold others to those views and where people (read: alayman) question the sincerity of others' faith when they come to differing conclusions.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Secondly I've asserted that many evangelicals of today make their "meat and drink" the be all and end all of how they determine their practices, without so much as a regard to weightier spiritual matters such as the promulgation of the gospel as well as the edification and consideration of their brethren.[/quote]

Thus the reason I asked what you mean by "gospel".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Paul only wrote four verses?

I'd also point out that the Holy Spirit felt that the entire self-revelation of God was important enough that He inspired the authors to write all of Scriptures.

I also find it remarkably odd that Jesus didn't describe the Gospel in that way even though He declared the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Paul (and evangelical Christianity) succinctly has defined the gospel for millenia now, but hey, you go ahead and improve on the simplicity of God's plan of redemption, if you dare. 

After you tinker with and reinvent the wheel, what in the name of Sam Hill does your point have to do with the topic under discussion?[/quote]

Yes, they have and did. And, it's encompassed a lot more than four verses. We've had this discussion before. Your definition completely ignores legitimate atonement models and says virtually nothing about a whole range of "gospel" issues like anthropology, soteriology, and especially, eschatology.

So, like I said, my suitcase labelled "gospel" has a lot more stuff packed in it than yours does, even though it includes the items you packed into it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Just so that you understand, you don't deserve the keystrokes and time this takes, but I'm bored, so to occupy my time I will type a little more.

I haven't read anything where any "freebirds" criticized another's personal convictions.

Stuff and nonsense.  Mike <Biker> and countless freebirds bemoan the poor enslaved legalist masses that disallow and deprive their kids of perfectly innocent fun and merrymaking, not to mention lovely treats.  For you to assert that there hasn't been any (even tons) of ink spilled in criticism of those who hold to their purportedly ignorant and fundamentalist (interpret: anti-intellectual backwoods idiotic) hermeneutical stupidity, well, it's intellectual dishonesty on your part, plain and simple.

I'd also point out that the Holy Spirit felt that the entire self-revelation of God was important enough that He inspired the authors to write all of Scriptures.

And what's your point?  Specifically, I'll ask again, as you tend to miss the point intentionally and often....what's the relationship of your goofy rabbit trail definition of the gospel to our discussion of Halloween, conscience, doubtful disputations, and convictions?

Yes, they have and did. And, it's encompassed a lot more than four verses. We've had this discussion before. Your definition completely ignores legitimate atonement models and says virtually nothing about a whole range of "gospel" issues like anthropology, soteriology, and especially, eschatology.

So unless somebody capitulates to your definition of the gospel then they are wrong about whatever theological point they assert?  How very "fundy" of you.

And while you're at it, go ahead and feel free to be specific regarding how my definition of the gospel explicitly prohibits other far-reaching implications that impact anthropology (and any of the other crap you alleged).  What an absolutely inane comment.  Merely because I don't flesh out all the ramifications(s) and effect of the gospel (which would require pages upon pages) you pull stuff out of your arse.  There's a difference in the content of the gospel and it's commensurate benefits, and I'd expect you of all people to understand such "nuance".

 

[rsc2a]

Just so that you understand, you don't deserve the keystrokes and time this takes, but I'm bored, so to occupy my time I will type a little more.

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. (Titus 3:1-2 ESV)

[quote author=ALAYMAN][quote author=rsc2a]I haven't read anything where any "freebirds" criticized another's personal convictions.[/quote]

Stuff and nonsense.  Mike <Biker> and countless freebirds bemoan the poor enslaved legalist masses that disallow and deprive their kids of perfectly innocent fun and merrymaking, not to mention lovely treats.  For you to assert that there hasn't been any (even tons) of ink spilled in criticism of those who hold to their purportedly ignorant and fundamentalist (interpret: anti-intellectual backwoods idiotic) hermeneutical stupidity, well, it's intellectual dishonesty on your part, plain and simple.[/quote]

Show me where anyone has bemoaned that they have been "disallowed and deprived" of engaging in activities because of what someone else's conscience says.

And, if you'd like, I can show you were we have questioned the logical and consistency of those who choose not to engage in particular activities. I can also point out where people (read: you) have questioned the sincerity of others' faith when they don't agree with you. (I also noticed you completely ignored that point.)


[quote author=ALAYMAN]

I'd also point out that the Holy Spirit felt that the entire self-revelation of God was important enough that He inspired the authors to write all of Scriptures.

And what's your point?  Specifically, I'll ask again, as you tend to miss the point intentionally and often....what's the relationship of your goofy rabbit trail definition of the gospel to our discussion of Halloween, conscience, doubtful disputations, and convictions?[/quote]

You're written it a couple times...I thought you would understand the point:

Secondly I've asserted that many evangelicals of today make their "meat and drink" the be all and end all of how they determine their practices, without so much as a regard to weightier spiritual matters such as the promulgation of the gospel as well as the edification and consideration of their brethren.

...as to the narrower point, you are apparently limiting your definition of "gospel" to a proof-text consisting of four verses and then acting like those verses are the end-all, be-all definition. I, and the vast majority of the Church, prefer to consider the whole of Scripture when we define such weighty terms as "gospel".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

Yes, they have and did. And, it's encompassed a lot more than four verses. We've had this discussion before. Your definition completely ignores legitimate atonement models and says virtually nothing about a whole range of "gospel" issues like anthropology, soteriology, and especially, eschatology.

So unless somebody capitulates to your definition of the gospel then they are wrong about whatever theological point they assert?  How very "fundy" of you. [/quote]

No...just pointing out that we mean different things when we talk. It would be beneficial to come to an agreement on the terms before continuing the discussion so we aren't debating over completely separate points and end up talking past each other. Because under "my" definition of gospel, redeeming this issue (and a whole pile of others) is part of "the promulgation of the gospel".

[quote author=ALAYMAN]And while you're at it, go ahead and feel free to be specific regarding how my definition of the gospel explicitly prohibits other far-reaching implications that impact anthropology (and any of the other crap you alleged).  What an absolutely inane comment.  Merely because I don't flesh out all the ramifications(s) and effect of the gospel (which would require pages upon pages) you pull stuff out of your arse.  There's a difference in the content of the gospel and it's commensurate benefits, and I'd expect you of all people to understand such "nuance".[/quote]

Koine Greek 101: Please give me an reasonable English translation for the word euangelion.

Here's a small hint.