Enoch?

[AresMan]

Would this also be a general statement?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

There were two men to whom death did not pass: Enoch, and Elijah.  Two notable exceptions do not disprove the general rule. In fact  the two exceptions are so notable that their translation only highlights the rule.

And that is a totally reasonable conclusion, and one that I argued against someone who was dogmatic that the two witnesses of Revelation must be Enoch and Elijah because of Hebrews 9:27.
Of course, I then said that the verse said "ONCE to die" and asked about those who died twice, such as Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son.
He then said that the verse meant "at least once."
I said that the verse does not say "at least once." It says "once to die, and after this the judgment." Did people like Eutychus actually face "the judgment" during the very brief time before Paul resuscitated him?
All he could argue was his position from tradition that Hebrews 9:27 proves that the two witnesses must be Enoch and Elijah. He was also one of those "hyperfundamentalists" who could never entertain the idea that there could be more than one plausible theory of interpretation about a passage of Scripture. He had to be able to claim a dogmatic answer to every verse of Scripture.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I believe the translation of Enoch is a type of the Rapture...note the context of his translation.

The two exceptions are merely a picture of what is yet to come....

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In a sense, if there is a rapture (and I'm pre-trib, but not dogmatic), then all people raptured technically die in that we lose this sinful flesh.  Enoch had to be changed as well, imo, or he would have died when entering God's presence.  So, technically, he died as well.

Could you elaborate on this idea a bit?  My pastor essentially said something very similar.

If flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom, the assumption could logically be made that he was 'changed' at his translation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

LAMER lamerizes:

22 translations say they all died, but they all undoubtedly mangled the text.

And v. 5 says Enoch specifically did not see death.

I'll leave it to you to take the skeptical posiiton that v. 5 and 13 contradict, rather than the obvious position that v. 13 is speaking generally.

BTW, if you have a point, make it. You've wasted enough of our time.

1) It's not "skeptical", it's thinking critically.
2) I'm not completely convinced that the terminology "did not see death" is necessarily interpreted properly in the manner you have suggested.
3) My point is the properly synthesis and harmonization of Scripture.  If ALL men in Adam received the curse, and every man is born in Adam as their federal head, then the consequences of the fall are imputed to them, just as the imputation of the second Adam to us grants us pardon.

If flesh and blood can't inherit the Kingdom, the assumption could logically be made that he was 'changed' at his translation.

I think that I understand what you are saying, but I still have questions.  If "death" is directly correlative to "translation" then it means that our penalty of physical death  doesn't mean quite what I've always assumed (that death is punitive). Can't quite get my head around that yet.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Would this also be a general statement?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

There were two men to whom death did not pass: Enoch, and Elijah.  Two notable exceptions do not disprove the general rule. In fact  the two exceptions are so notable that their translation only highlights the rule.

And that is a totally reasonable conclusion, and one that I argued against someone who was dogmatic that the two witnesses of Revelation must be Enoch and Elijah because of Hebrews 9:27.
Of course, I then said that the verse said "ONCE to die" and asked about those who died twice, such as Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son.
He then said that the verse meant "at least once."
I said that the verse does not say "at least once." It says "once to die, and after this the judgment." Did people like Eutychus actually face "the judgment" during the very brief time before Paul resuscitated him?
All he could argue was his position from tradition that Hebrews 9:27 proves that the two witnesses must be Enoch and Elijah. He was also one of those "hyperfundamentalists" who could never entertain the idea that there could be more than one plausible theory of interpretation about a passage of Scripture. He had to be able to claim a dogmatic answer to every verse of Scripture.

Well, obviously, it's not meant to be taken literally.  It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

Life of Brian - Blessed are the cheesemakers

 

[Ransom]

2) I'm not completely convinced that the terminology "did not see death" is necessarily interpreted properly in the manner you have suggested.

Great! Present a credible alternative, or go pound sand.

Either way, we're free of your trolling - a win-win.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

I always wondered about this verse as well, and it came to mind when thinking about Enoch.
Genesis 3:22 (NASB)
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

 

[ALAYMAN]

I always wondered about this verse as well, and it came to mind when thinking about Enoch.
Genesis 3:22 (NASB)
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

I always wondered about this verse as well, and it came to mind when thinking about Enoch.
Genesis 3:22 (NASB)
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=jimmudcatgrant]
Great minds think alike, I guess.   It seems the more I think about Enoch, I have more questions than answers.  I do believe that he didn't die in the normal sense, just like raptured Christians will not.
[/quote]

Agreed.

As a humorous sidenote.  Me and a couple of other fellas were soulwinning in a black part of town years ago.  We came across a couple of men jogging.  We asked them if we could talk with them and they gladly stopped and listened.  After we witnessed for a bit, they told us thanks, that they were members of a local congregation and that by the looks of our paunchy bodies and spare tires that we needed to take a run with them and prepare ourselves for that time when we met the Lord, because ya needs to be in shape for the meetin' in the air. 

 

[Bob H]

Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Did Enoch escape physical death?  If so, why did God exempt him from the curse/consequence of sin?

Who says Enoch and Elijah will escape it?.................And I hope on escaping it myself  but of course I'm per-Trib. But that's just me

 

[Ransom]

Who says Enoch and Elijah will escape it?

Did God take them up to heaven so he could kill 'em up there?

 

[rsc2a]

Did God take them up to heaven so he could kill 'em up there?

Panem et circenses?

 

[Bob H]

Who says Enoch and Elijah will escape it?

Did God take them up to heaven so he could kill 'em up there?

Whether you agree or not with it, I believe you are well enough versed on pre-trib pre-mill eschatology to know the answer to that

 

[Ransom]

Whether you agree or not with it, I believe you are well enough versed on pre-trib pre-mill eschatology to know the answer to that

I would have to accept "pre-trib pre-mill [sic] eschatology" to accept your conclusion.

It's just as likely Enoch is a type of the Rapture as his being a type of Santa Claus playing a rubber of whist with Genghis Khan, the Mad Hatter, and a puff of ammonia vapour.

 

[Bob H]

Whether you agree or not with it, I believe you are well enough versed on pre-trib pre-mill eschatology to know the answer to that

I would have to accept "pre-trib pre-mill [sic] eschatology" to accept your conclusion.

I don't believe the "two witnesses" have to be them and I don't believe they are. Some do though. But you knew what I meant when I posted that 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Did Enoch escape physical death?  If so, why did God exempt him from the curse/consequence of sin?

Who says Enoch and Elijah will escape it?.................And I hope on escaping it myself  but of course I'm per-Trib. But that's just me

Well, Christ said no man that no man hath ascended into heaven, so I wonder how these two thoughts are reconciled.

 

[Ransom]

Well, Christ said no man that no man hath ascended into heaven, so I wonder how these two thoughts are reconciled.

Well, Christ said that he was a door and a chicken, so I wonder how these two thoughts are reconciled.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Well, Christ said that he was a door and a chicken, so I wonder how these two thoughts are reconciled.

You're making progress.  At least that gibberish is more coherent than your Augustinian gobbledy-gook.

 

[Ransom]

Buck buck buck! *slam*