Enoch?

[brianb]

Because he was really Kal El of Krypton (aka. Superman).

 

[JrChurch]

Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Did Enoch escape physical death?  If so, why did God exempt him from the curse/consequence of sin?

 

Yes, he escaped physical death...by faith... and God's power to translate him.  God chose to do so because Enoch pleased him.  Sounds simple to me.

Hebrews 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

[standingtall]

God chose to do so because Enoch pleased him.  Sounds simple to me.

Yup.  Spelled out in clear terms.

But given ALAMEMAN's propensity to constantly stir the pot, the OP is par for the course.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Did Enoch escape physical death?  If so, why did God exempt him from the curse/consequence of sin?

 

Yes, he escaped physical death...by faith... and God's power to translate him.  God chose to do so because Enoch pleased him.  Sounds simple to me.

Hebrews 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

But Hebrews 11:13 says "that these all died in faith".

 

[ALAYMAN]

Because he was really Kal El of Krypton (aka. Superman).

lol, you ain't right bro.


But truthfully, when I read your post, it seemed like the kind of response that is given all too regularly round here, even under the pretense of a serious answer.

 

[JrChurch]

I simply find the fact that God pronounced an unequivocal curse on all sin and sinners to be compellingly overriding the notion that merely because Enoch "walked with God" that God somehow overlooked what He had earlier pronounced.

When I read Scripture, I keep in mind that we are in God's universe and He gets to make His own rules.  If He says ..."it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" yet,  allows Enoch and Elijah to be translated/caught up in a chariot of fire, allows Lazarus and Jairus' daughter to die and come back to life only (presumably) to die again, then He is being the Creator and rule maker.  Do I understand everything He does? No.  But I believe His word when He says He translated Enoch because of his testimony that he pleased God. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=JrChurch]

When I read Scripture, I keep in mind that we are in God's universe and He gets to make His own rules.  If He says ..."it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" yet,  allows Enoch and Elijah to be translated/caught up in a chariot of fire, allows Lazarus and Jairus' daughter to die and come back to life only (presumably) to die again, then He is being the Creator and rule maker.  Do I understand everything He does? No.  But I believe His word when He says He translated Enoch because of his testimony that he pleased God.
[/quote]

I respect that.  I wouldn't rob you of it, and fully agree that sometimes too much can be made out of things that we simply cannot fully apprehend or ascertain from Scriptures.  This may be one of those cases.  I simply thought it would make for some different <Biblical> discussion than what we usually have, and some speculative theology (backed by educated guesses).  As it turns out, the link provided by "truth detector" provided a whole lot of answers to questions that had ran through my mind about this topic.  This is one of those questions that some agnostics/atheists use to present as a Biblical discrepancy.  Although I'm not primarily looking to a synthesis of the difficulty of this apparent conundrum to solve their skeptical attitudes, it would help me to have a better understanding if such a case would ever arise.  Or, as happended to me yesterday in my adult SS class, I was asked to provide some answers to help one of my adult students deal with a friend who had left the faith.  Their situation was something similar in nature to what we're discussing.  The wanted to know how to validate the authenticity of the Bible as the word of God.  Helping answer those kinds of questions can sometimes be a fruitless venture if the person asking is the Biblical definition of a scorner, but occasionally the doubts can be answered from a clear explanation of what had been thought a discrepancy/contradiction.

 

[Ransom]

LAMER said:

The very passage you quote in Hebrews says that "these all died, not having received the promise" (v13), so it's not quite as cut and dried as you make it out to be.

The very passage you mangled says that they saw the promise from afar, so in fact it is as cut-and-dried as I make it out to be.

 

[Ransom]

I simply find the fact that God pronounced an unequivocal curse on all sin and sinners to be compellingly overriding the notion that merely because Enoch "walked with God" that God somehow overlooked what He had earlier pronounced.

I simply find the fact that the Bible says Enoch didn't taste death because he pleased God, to settle the matter, notwithstanding all your attempts to obfuscate a simple issue.

 

[ALAYMAN]

LAMER said:

The very passage you quote in Hebrews says that "these all died, not having received the promise" (v13), so it's not quite as cut and dried as you make it out to be.

The very passage you mangled says that they saw the promise from afar, so in fact it is as cut-and-dried as I make it out to be.

22 translations say they all died, but they all undoubtedly mangled the text.

(ABP+)  According toG2596 beliefG4102 [3diedG599 1theseG3778 2all],G3956 notG3361 receivingG2983 theG3588 promises,G1860 butG235 at a distanceG4207 beholding them,G1473 G1492 andG2532 being persuaded,G3982 andG2532 greeting,G782 andG2532 acknowledgingG3670 thatG3754 [2strangersG3581 3andG2532 4immigrantsG3927 1they are]G1510.2.6 uponG1909 theG3588 earth.G1093

(ASV)  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(BBE)  All these came to their end in faith, not having had the heritage; but having seen it with delight far away, they gave witness that they were wanderers and not of the earth.

(CEV)  Every one of those people died. But they still had faith, even though they had not received what they had been promised. They were glad just to see these things from far away, and they agreed that they were only strangers and foreigners on this earth.

(Darby)  All these died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them from afar off and embraced them , and confessed that they were strangers and sojourners on the earth.

(DRB)  All these died according to faith, not having received the promises but beholding them afar off and saluting them and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth.

(EMTV)  These all died according to faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off and welcoming them, and confessing that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(ERV)  All these great people continued living with faith until they died. They did not get the things God promised his people. But they were happy just to see those promises coming far in the future. They accepted the fact that they were like visitors and strangers here on earth.

(ESV)  These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

(GNB)  It was in faith that all these persons died. They did not receive the things God had promised, but from a long way off they saw them and welcomed them, and admitted openly that they were foreigners and refugees on earth.

(GW)  All these people died having faith. They didn't receive the things that God had promised them, but they saw these things coming in the distant future and rejoiced. They acknowledged that they were living as strangers with no permanent home on earth.

(ISV)  All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant future and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers and foreigners on earth.

(KJV)  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(KJV+)  TheseG3778 allG3956 diedG599 inG2596 faith,G4102 notG3361 having receivedG2983 theG3588 promises,G1860 butG235 having seenG1492 themG846 afar off,G4207 andG2532 were persuadedG3982 of them, andG2532 embracedG782 them, andG2532 confessedG3670 thatG3754 they wereG1526 strangersG3581 andG2532 pilgrimsG3927 onG1909 theG3588 earth.G1093

(LEB)  These all died in faith without receiving the promises, but seeing them from a distance and welcoming them, and admitting that they were strangers and temporary residents on the earth.

(LITV)  These all died by way of faith, not having received the promises, but seeing them from afar, and being persuaded, and having embraced and confessed that they are aliens and tenants on the earth.

(MKJV)  These all died by way of faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off. And they were persuaded of them and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(Murdock)  All these died in faith, and received not their promise; but they saw it afar off, and rejoiced in it; and they confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(RV)  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(Webster)  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

(WNT)  All these died in the possession of faith. They had not received the promised blessings, but had seen them from a distance and had greeted them, and had acknowledged themselves to be foreigners and strangers here on earth;

(YLT)  In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted them , and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth,

 

[rsc2a]

You can't separate spiritual death from physical death. Remember this?

[quote author=rsc2a]
Are hurt, pain, illness, weariness, and broken relationships not a consequence of the fall?

Yes, but how in the world does that answer my question?  He faced *some* of the consequences of sin, to that I complete agree, but that has nothing to do with my question.  The full measure of the consequences includes death, as clearly spelled out in Genesis.  Enoch apparently escaped <one of, and a most serious one>  what was prescribed by God for disobedience to all that were in Adam.  Enoch was in Adam, wasn't he?  Even though we are in Christ, we still don't escape the physical death which results from the fall.  Why was Enoch exempted?

I maintain that you are dividing something that can't be that easily divided.
[/quote]

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

No, as usual, your pomposity knows no bounds.  I was well aware of the Hebrews passage, and had my reasons for asking the question the way I did.  Primarily, it was about why God would allow Enoch to escape the penalty of sin.  You conveniently avoided that, the most important facet of the question.

Nothing says he did. I'm sure he still cried, got hurt, got sick, got tired, had to deal with broken relationships...

Is physical death not a consequence of the sin and fall?

We are, of course, in the process physically dying now.
In the Rapture, in which all intelligent Christians believe  , many will escape that consequence.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]

I maintain that you are dividing something that can't be that easily divided.
[/quote]


Yeah, and if these fine FFF folk and many other respectable people are right that Enoch represents Enoch in typology for the rapture your assertion is shot, because the rapture certainly would allow for people who spiritually were once dead to avoid physical death.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

In a sense, if there is a rapture (and I'm pre-trib, but not dogmatic), then all people raptured technically die in that we lose this sinful flesh.  Enoch had to be changed as well, imo, or he would have died when entering God's presence.  So, technically, he died as well. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

In a sense, if there is a rapture (and I'm pre-trib, but not dogmatic), then all people raptured technically die in that we lose this sinful flesh.  Enoch had to be changed as well, imo, or he would have died when entering God's presence.  So, technically, he died as well.

Could you elaborate on this idea a bit?  My pastor essentially said something very similar.

 

[rsc2a]

In a sense, if there is a rapture (and I'm pre-trib, but not dogmatic), then all people raptured technically die in that we lose this sinful flesh.  Enoch had to be changed as well, imo, or he would have died when entering God's presence.  So, technically, he died as well.

I don't know how it work exactly. I'm probably a post-Trib guy but it doesn't matter either way. You can't separate the physical and spiritual and maintain Biblical Christianity.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

In a sense, if there is a rapture (and I'm pre-trib, but not dogmatic), then all people raptured technically die in that we lose this sinful flesh.  Enoch had to be changed as well, imo, or he would have died when entering God's presence.  So, technically, he died as well.

Could you elaborate on this idea a bit?  My pastor essentially said something very similar.

1 Corinthians 15:52-55 (ESV)
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

 

[Ransom]

LAMER lamerizes:

22 translations say they all died, but they all undoubtedly mangled the text.

And v. 5 says Enoch specifically did not see death.

I'll leave it to you to take the skeptical posiiton that v. 5 and 13 contradict, rather than the obvious position that v. 13 is speaking generally.

BTW, if you have a point, make it. You've wasted enough of our time.

 

[AresMan]

LAMER lamerizes:

22 translations say they all died, but they all undoubtedly mangled the text.

And v. 5 says Enoch specifically did not see death.

I'll leave it to you to take the skeptical posiiton that v. 5 and 13 contradict, rather than the obvious position that v. 13 is speaking generally.

BTW, if you have a point, make it. You've wasted enough of our time.

Would this also be a general statement?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I can go either way with what exactly happened to Enoch and whether his translation can be considered a form of "death" (separation), but not "death" in the conventional sense.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Could it be said that the translation of the saints (and the resurrection of the dead) at the parousia can be considered a form of "death" (with the "sting" removed) in the strictest meaning of separation from the "corruptible," but yet NOT "death" in the conventional sense of the "sting" that is generally associated with it? As such, Enoch could have not seen death in that he did not have to die of old age, experience the sickness and "sting" of his spirit leaving his body, but that he was specially changed from corruptible to incorruptible just like those at the parousia would be?

This is just food for thought, so don't rip me apart over it. 

 

[Ransom]

Would this also be a general statement?

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

There were two men to whom death did not pass: Enoch, and Elijah.  Two notable exceptions do not disprove the general rule. In fact  the two exceptions are so notable that their translation only highlights the rule.