Do you think there should be a probationary period before baptism?

[OZZY]

Do you think there should be a probationary period before baptism?

It's a good rule of thumb to wait until the child is born to baptize it.

Born AGAIN you mean,, anything before is just a bath or a shower

 

[Winston]

[quote author=Winston]
No. Did I say that? I said that your doctrine that "Baptism by water is what makes you a member of the local church" is man-made.

Stop being an idiot and prove to me that water baptism is what makes you a church member.

Do you believe there is Scriptural warrant or any Biblical evidence supporting the concept of church membership (other than universal membership)?
[/quote]

Yes. In 1 Cor 5 the Apostle speaks of those outside, those inside and putting someone out.  He is not clear as to what he means. And he cannot mean to exclude unbelievers because in the same book, in ch 14 he talks approvingly of unbelievers coming into the assembly. So, there must be some kind of thing that they did to indicate who was in and who was out.  I think church membership is probably the best we can do.  Not that the strike of a pen makes it official, but however that local assembly chooses to include or exclude.  I am a huge proponent of local church membership. People must be under the protection of the eldership and protection of God's hand.

 

[BALAAM]

I was raised in a North American Baptist church. It was a German speaking denomination but we had pastors from many different walks. I know I was saved as a young boy but our Christian Missionary Alliance pastor at the time would not baptize kids until they were at least nine years old. I had to go through a baptism class that he taught and as an eight year old boy I still can see the book he taught from. "Luther's Catechism" I could not figure out why he would teach from that because I had many friends who were Lutheran and I knew we were not the same.

Instead of confessing your faith as a young boy, I thought you had to make if official and really couldn't be officially saved in the eyes of our church until you were nine. It was very confusing to me.

 

[Bro Blue]

I've always heard it preached that water baptism is how you join the local church, after salvation of course. In my examination of churchology I had not gotten around to that question yet. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Izdaari]I don't get how water baptism enrolls anyone in a particular 501c3 corporation. In the universal church, yes. In the universal church in a particular city, yes, so long as they live there. But in a particular congregation or denomination? No, not unless there's a written contract attached....

What local church doctrine is that? Some IFB thing that I'm unfamiliar with, never having been IFB?

What does your statement about a 5013c have to do with the Scriptural definition of a church?  And the notion of church membership via baptism is not some johnny-come-lately IFB doctrine.
[/quote]

I certainly understand baptism as a prerequisite for church membership. My denomination (Assemblies of God) has that requirement. You can't join without having had a trinitarian baptism by immersion, not necessarily in our church but at some time in your life. But I've never heard of baptism automatically conferring church membership... other than in the universal church.

 

[Ironman]

[quote author=Izdaari]I don't get how water baptism enrolls anyone in a particular 501c3 corporation. In the universal church, yes. In the universal church in a particular city, yes, so long as they live there. But in a particular congregation or denomination? No, not unless there's a written contract attached....

What local church doctrine is that? Some IFB thing that I'm unfamiliar with, never having been IFB?

What does your statement about a 5013c have to do with the Scriptural definition of a church?  And the notion of church membership via baptism is not some johnny-come-lately IFB doctrine.

Yes.  It is a symbol of uniting with the body of Christ.  The local church represents the body of Christ for that locale. 

I certainly understand baptism as a prerequisite for church membership. My denomination (Assemblies of God) has that requirement. You can't join without having had a trinitarian baptism by immersion, not necessarily in our church but at some time in your life. But I've never heard of baptism automatically conferring church membership... other than in the universal church.
[/quote]

 

[Izdaari]

Yes.  It is a symbol of uniting with the body of Christ.  The local church represents the body of Christ for that locale.

I understand, and I don't disagree. But if, say, I become a believer and ask to be baptized, and I convince the pastor of Podunk 1st Baptist Church to do it, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm joining Podunk 1st Baptist Church. But it does mean I'm joining the body of Christ universally and wherever I am... but maybe after checking out the local churches, I'd rather be a Lutheran.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I understand, and I don't disagree. But if, say, I become a believer and ask to be baptized, and I convince the pastor of Podunk 1st Baptist Church to do it, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm joining Podunk 1st Baptist Church. But it does mean I'm joining the body of Christ universally and wherever I am... but maybe after checking out the local churches, I'd rather be a Lutheran.
[/quote]

From reading your response I gather that you believe that water baptism joins you to a universal church.  Could you explain from Scriptures why you believe that?

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I understand, and I don't disagree. But if, say, I become a believer and ask to be baptized, and I convince the pastor of Podunk 1st Baptist Church to do it, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm joining Podunk 1st Baptist Church. But it does mean I'm joining the body of Christ universally and wherever I am... but maybe after checking out the local churches, I'd rather be a Lutheran.

From reading your response I gather that you believe that water baptism joins you to a universal church.  Could you explain from Scriptures why you believe that?
[/quote]

I would think the example of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch would be enough. He clearly became a Christian, and did not become a member of Phillip's church in Jerusalem, as he was on a journey back to his home in Ethiopia... where perhaps he won other converts and planted a church. There continues to be a very old Christian tradition in Ethiopia, which perhaps began on that day. The importance of Phillip making that particular convert suggests it did.

Now... did that happen when he was baptized, or when he believed? I don't really know, don't care all that much. It's enough for me that Jesus commanded that all His followers be baptized.

 

[Winston]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I understand, and I don't disagree. But if, say, I become a believer and ask to be baptized, and I convince the pastor of Podunk 1st Baptist Church to do it, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm joining Podunk 1st Baptist Church. But it does mean I'm joining the body of Christ universally and wherever I am... but maybe after checking out the local churches, I'd rather be a Lutheran.

From reading your response I gather that you believe that water baptism joins you to a universal church.  Could you explain from Scriptures why you believe that?

I would think the example of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch would be enough. He clearly became a Christian, and did not become a member of Phillip's church in Jerusalem, as he was on a journey back to his home in Ethiopia... where perhaps he won other converts and planted a church. There continues to be a very old Christian tradition in Ethiopia, which perhaps began on that day. The importance of Phillip making that particular convert suggests it did.

Now... did that happen when he was baptized, or when he believed? I don't really know, don't care all that much. It's enough for me that Jesus commanded that all His followers be baptized.
[/quote]

Generally, evengelical believers interpret 1 Cor 12:13 as teaching that Spirit Baptism, that which makes me into a child of God, when the Spirit "Baptises" or immerses me, into the body of Christ, I am then in the universal church.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I would think the example of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch would be enough. He clearly became a Christian, and did not become a member of Phillip's church in Jerusalem,...[/quote]

All this passage can tell us about Baptism, at least explicitly tell us, is that Baptism is integrally related to salvation.  It would be an argument from silence (for either party, universal church OR local church) to cite it as a basis for the correlation of baptism to the church.  Though it's not a slam dunk, Acts 2:41 has significant force in the argument showing that baptism added members to the church at Jerusalem.  Of course that same passage also makes a reasonable case for baptizing folks ASAP after conversion IMHO.


Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Now... did that happen when he was baptized, or when he believed? I don't really know, don't care all that much. It's enough for me that Jesus commanded that all His followers be baptized.

Not at all trying to be snarky, but shouldn't we be aptly concerned with<primary> doctrine, especially ecclesiastical doctrine, particularly since Christ gave himself for the church?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It does seem that the Biblical model, at least in Acts, was Baptism as soon as possible after salvation....as many have pointed out. The Phillippian jailers family is another example...forgive me if it was previously sited....didn't read entire thread.

 

[ALAYMAN]

It does seem that the Biblical model, at least in Acts, was Baptism as soon as possible after salvation....as many have pointed out. The Phillippian jailers family is another example...forgive me if it was previously sited....didn't read entire thread.

Great, now you've invited Reformed Guy and the paedos to the picnic.

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I understand, and I don't disagree. But if, say, I become a believer and ask to be baptized, and I convince the pastor of Podunk 1st Baptist Church to do it, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm joining Podunk 1st Baptist Church. But it does mean I'm joining the body of Christ universally and wherever I am... but maybe after checking out the local churches, I'd rather be a Lutheran.

From reading your response I gather that you believe that water baptism joins you to a universal church.  Could you explain from Scriptures why you believe that?

I would think the example of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch would be enough. He clearly became a Christian, and did not become a member of Phillip's church in Jerusalem, as he was on a journey back to his home in Ethiopia... where perhaps he won other converts and planted a church. There continues to be a very old Christian tradition in Ethiopia, which perhaps began on that day. The importance of Phillip making that particular convert suggests it did.

Now... did that happen when he was baptized, or when he believed? I don't really know, don't care all that much. It's enough for me that Jesus commanded that all His followers be baptized.

Generally, evengelical believers interpret 1 Cor 12:13 as teaching that Spirit Baptism, that which makes me into a child of God, when the Spirit "Baptises" or immerses me, into the body of Christ, I am then in the universal church.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body

 

[Izdaari]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I would think the example of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch would be enough. He clearly became a Christian, and did not become a member of Phillip's church in Jerusalem,...

All this passage can tell us about Baptism, at least explicitly tell us, is that Baptism is integrally related to salvation.  It would be an argument from silence (for either party, universal church OR local church) to cite it as a basis for the correlation of baptism to the church.  Though it's not a slam dunk, Acts 2:41 has significant force in the argument showing that baptism added members to the church at Jerusalem.  Of course that same passage also makes a reasonable case for baptizing folks ASAP after conversion IMHO.


Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Now... did that happen when he was baptized, or when he believed? I don't really know, don't care all that much. It's enough for me that Jesus commanded that all His followers be baptized.

Not at all trying to be snarky, but shouldn't we be aptly concerned with<primary> doctrine, especially ecclesiastical doctrine, particularly since Christ gave himself for the church?
[/quote]

It's important that we believe, and that we're baptized, and in doing so we are honoring Christ by doing as he said. I'm not sure that understanding exactly how it works is all that important, and I doubt that the Ethiopian eunuch whom Phillip baptized understood it very well either. I think worrying too much about it is maybe a case of "majoring in minors".

 

[Castor Muscular]

It's important that we believe, and that we're baptized, and in doing so we are honoring Christ by doing as he said. I'm not sure that understanding exactly how it works is all that important, and I doubt that the Ethiopian eunuch whom Phillip baptized understood it very well either. I think worrying too much about it is maybe a case of "majoring in minors".

I think it's a case of listening to your inner control-freak. 

 

[samspade]

[quote author=Izdaari]
I would think the example of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch would be enough. He clearly became a Christian, and did not become a member of Phillip's church in Jerusalem,...

All this passage can tell us about Baptism, at least explicitly tell us, is that Baptism is integrally related to salvation.  It would be an argument from silence (for either party, universal church OR local church) to cite it as a basis for the correlation of baptism to the church.  Though it's not a slam dunk, Acts 2:41 has significant force in the argument showing that baptism added members to the church at Jerusalem.  Of course that same passage also makes a reasonable case for baptizing folks ASAP after conversion IMHO.


Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Now... did that happen when he was baptized, or when he believed? I don't really know, don't care all that much. It's enough for me that Jesus commanded that all His followers be baptized.

Acts 2 is a weak argument for Local Church, if that is the argument you're making, since that was the only church in existence at that time. There was no other body to join.

Not at all trying to be snarky, but shouldn't we be aptly concerned with<primary> doctrine, especially ecclesiastical doctrine, particularly since Christ gave himself for the church?
[/quote]