Do you still read/reference Dr. Hyles' books?

[brainisengaged]

Baptist City Holdout wrote: If one feels something learned from a deviate is worth mentioning, please rephrase it so it's not a quote.

The thing is, I think there are people out there who so bury their heads in the sand that they do not know Joe Combs (or others of his ilk) to be deviates.

When we moved here to FBC Hammond / HAC in the 80's and all the scandals broke, we were told that the newspapers were vile and evil and against us, and we were to shun them. Cancel our subscriptions. So I buried my head in the sand, as I was commanded to do from the pulpit. If I had come across and read a negative article back then, I would have rejected it as being impossible. My mindset was 100% loyalty to our cause, which was represented by our great and infallible leader, the right revered Dr. JH. If he said to ignore any negativity, I ignored any negativity. And felt very smug at what a good Christian I was, to boot. Doesn't the Bible say, after all, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Ph 4:8. Those poor, unscriptural ignoramuses who crossed over and entered the land of negativity...I pitied them and felt superior to them at the same time. Well, eventually it all died down, and it hadn't reared enough of an ugly roar for me to be woken up.

Flash forward to the JS years...before I really knew anything about what was wrong but while my spirit was sending out red flags I didn't quite recognize (I can be obtuse), I kept hearing JS mention another evil entity, The Internet. He would say something and then add, "I suppose that will be all over the internet tomorrow." He began to mention the internet a lot, it seemed a bit of an obsession.

I had so thoroughly bought in to the man, as he repeatedly admonished us to do, that I honestly could not comprehend how anyone could have any negative spin on anything he said, did, or thought. I was curious to know how warped and twisted people had to be in order to find something negative to say about him...so I began to try to figure out what sites he was referring to on the internet. I just used a search engine, put in a few key names / words. I came across an older incarnation of this, the FFF. I do not remember the year...

What I do remember is the poster, "Smellin' Coffee". I read a little bit of one post of his on some topic I would never be able to recall, and it impressed upon me immediately, "Oh my word! These people are SCORNERS. They are SKEPTICS."  My world made sense once again. The only people who could think something against my amazing pastor and / or church were people beyond hope...the scorners and the skeptics. I left this world behind, having opened the door for a moment and not having liked what I saw.

What nagged at me a little is that Smellin' sounded...intelligent. I've always been swayed by intelligence. That's part of what attached me so securely to JS. He was so much more intelligent than so many others of the uneducated-and-proud-of-it bully pulpit drawling Baptists. So many of the guest speaker preechers just made me cringe...and I was proud of JS's intelligence, which he made certain to parade in front of us at all occasions. I use the word 'proud' purposefully. It is a word and attitude my husband has taught me to avoid. If I say to a young person, "I am so proud of you!" he corrects me later. Pride is a sin. I say, "I didn't mean it sinfully, I meant I was really happy and pleased for the child!" He says, "Then say you are really happy and pleased. Don't bring pride into it." (we've had conversations like that, but that is a fictitious and not literal transcription - I also try to not quote my husband since I don't wish to give an occasion for others who do not know him to form any opinion of him)

Back on Track Now: I was proud, sinfully, of JS for being a savvy, intelligent, modern pastor. I didn't understand how anyone could have anything negative to say about him in any way, unless they were not right with God themselves because if ANYONE was right with God, it was JS.

Smellin's comments made me think...but that was before I was ready to think, so I quickly shut that door.

However, when the scandals broke...I sure knew where to go. I was ready to shed my 100% faith in all things FBC. I wanted to learn, I wanted to think, I wanted to grow. It has been a most confusing but liberating journey.

I truly believe that the Sunshine, Apple Pie & Lollipop world we had all THOUGHT we were living in (our fool's paradise) dissolved for me forever with the JS scandal. But for some, the lights merely went dim for a bit. Their world darkened momentarily, but as soon as the buffoon Gibbs got up and told them everything was fine, they sighed a sigh of relief. As the months of EL as acting pastor dragged on, they grew to love and adore him for doing such a great job of keeping their world going. And when Pastor Wilkerson came on the scene, in a bit of a Gomer Pyle-esque way: "Well, Goll-eee! Here's a Happy Good Morning To You!" well, the people knew their Sunshine, Apple Pie, and Lollipop world was restored.

They never decided to try and learn the truth about anything that happened.

Part of me thinks perhaps they are right, and I do truly envy their uncomplicated simplicity. But it's the kind of naiveté that, once lost, can never be regained.

I know I've rambled here...but one thing of which I am very sure. God is everywhere. He is not only in the land of Sunshine, Apple Pie, and Lollipops.

 

[RAIDER]

I give Bro. Hyles credit for success in all my businesses.

He was a genius at marketing most anything.

He could sell air conditioners to Eskimos.

You could take his marketing principals and use them in your business and sell rings around your competition.

Remember the ball point pen speech at BJU?

People still remember it today. It was not a Bible sermon at all.

His type of soul winning was simply a high-pressure business sales pitch that would work with or without the working of the Holy Spirit.

It always gave us great numbers.

....but the fruit did not remain. We are unable to retain our  young people they stop going to any church anywhere.

I'm to old to change and learn new tricks.

I am talking about not retaining our HB graduates.

I do not want to reveal how bad it is, but it is bad.

Same is true with the retention in our bus ministry, that is why we can have big numbers and nothing to show for it when we look for the results.

I don't think it's just a problem at FBCH.

While I agree with just about everything you said, I think there are also some success stories.  There are actually many bus kids who were reached by the FBCH bus ministry who are still serving the Lord today.  There are many HBers who are serving the Lord today.  The failures may outnumber the successes, but I believe that is true in most churches.

 

[kaba]

Very, very well written and I can relate in so many ways!!

 

[RAIDER]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life. 

 

[Mathew Ward]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life.

Or we could give the credit to God for using someone to teach you a Biblical truth...just a thought

 

[Walt]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life.

I agree.

In fact, I don't mind giving credit to the human that God used to bring a truth to me; whether that be Combs or Dave Hyles, but I would either not name names, or say something like: "Though he proved to be a reprobate later in life, when I was in college, Dave Hyles taught me this truth...."

God can use wicked men - good thing, or He couldn't use any of us... Eh?

 

[RAIDER]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life.

Or we could give the credit to God for using someone to teach you a Biblical truth...just a thought

Yes, we should never mention anyone's name in a sermon or Bible study except for Gods.  Thank you for enlightening all of us.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life.

Or we could give the credit to God for using someone to teach you a Biblical truth...just a thought

Yes, we should never mention anyone's name in a sermon or Bible study except for Gods.  Thank you for enlightening all of us.

That would cut down on the world hearing of Raider!

 

[RAIDER]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life.

Or we could give the credit to God for using someone to teach you a Biblical truth...just a thought

Yes, we should never mention anyone's name in a sermon or Bible study except for Gods.  Thank you for enlightening all of us.

That would cut down on the world hearing of Raider!

The only thing I hate worse than having my name mentioned in a post is not having my name mentioned in a post.

 

[fishinnut]

Baptist City Holdout wrote: If one feels something learned from a deviate is worth mentioning, please rephrase it so it's not a quote.

The thing is, I think there are people out there who so bury their heads in the sand that they do not know Joe Combs (or others of his ilk) to be deviates.

When we moved here to FBC Hammond / HAC in the 80's and all the scandals broke, we were told that the newspapers were vile and evil and against us, and we were to shun them. Cancel our subscriptions. So I buried my head in the sand, as I was commanded to do from the pulpit. If I had come across and read a negative article back then, I would have rejected it as being impossible. My mindset was 100% loyalty to our cause, which was represented by our great and infallible leader, the right revered Dr. JH. If he said to ignore any negativity, I ignored any negativity. And felt very smug at what a good Christian I was, to boot. Doesn't the Bible say, after all, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." Ph 4:8. Those poor, unscriptural ignoramuses who crossed over and entered the land of negativity...I pitied them and felt superior to them at the same time. Well, eventually it all died down, and it hadn't reared enough of an ugly roar for me to be woken up.

Flash forward to the JS years...before I really knew anything about what was wrong but while my spirit was sending out red flags I didn't quite recognize (I can be obtuse), I kept hearing JS mention another evil entity, The Internet. He would say something and then add, "I suppose that will be all over the internet tomorrow." He began to mention the internet a lot, it seemed a bit of an obsession.

I had so thoroughly bought in to the man, as he repeatedly admonished us to do, that I honestly could not comprehend how anyone could have any negative spin on anything he said, did, or thought. I was curious to know how warped and twisted people had to be in order to find something negative to say about him...so I began to try to figure out what sites he was referring to on the internet. I just used a search engine, put in a few key names / words. I came across an older incarnation of this, the FFF. I do not remember the year...

What I do remember is the poster, "Smellin' Coffee". I read a little bit of one post of his on some topic I would never be able to recall, and it impressed upon me immediately, "Oh my word! These people are SCORNERS. They are SKEPTICS."  My world made sense once again. The only people who could think something against my amazing pastor and / or church were people beyond hope...the scorners and the skeptics. I left this world behind, having opened the door for a moment and not having liked what I saw.

What nagged at me a little is that Smellin' sounded...intelligent. I've always been swayed by intelligence. That's part of what attached me so securely to JS. He was so much more intelligent than so many others of the uneducated-and-proud-of-it bully pulpit drawling Baptists. So many of the guest speaker preechers just made me cringe...and I was proud of JS's intelligence, which he made certain to parade in front of us at all occasions. I use the word 'proud' purposefully. It is a word and attitude my husband has taught me to avoid. If I say to a young person, "I am so proud of you!" he corrects me later. Pride is a sin. I say, "I didn't mean it sinfully, I meant I was really happy and pleased for the child!" He says, "Then say you are really happy and pleased. Don't bring pride into it." (we've had conversations like that, but that is a fictitious and not literal transcription - I also try to not quote my husband since I don't wish to give an occasion for others who do not know him to form any opinion of him)

Back on Track Now: I was proud, sinfully, of JS for being a savvy, intelligent, modern pastor. I didn't understand how anyone could have anything negative to say about him in any way, unless they were not right with God themselves because if ANYONE was right with God, it was JS.

Smellin's comments made me think...but that was before I was ready to think, so I quickly shut that door.

However, when the scandals broke...I sure knew where to go. I was ready to shed my 100% faith in all things FBC. I wanted to learn, I wanted to think, I wanted to grow. It has been a most confusing but liberating journey.

I truly believe that the Sunshine, Apple Pie & Lollipop world we had all THOUGHT we were living in (our fool's paradise) dissolved for me forever with the JS scandal. But for some, the lights merely went dim for a bit. Their world darkened momentarily, but as soon as the buffoon Gibbs got up and told them everything was fine, they sighed a sigh of relief. As the months of EL as acting pastor dragged on, they grew to love and adore him for doing such a great job of keeping their world going. And when Pastor Wilkerson came on the scene, in a bit of a Gomer Pyle-esque way: "Well, Goll-eee! Here's a Happy Good Morning To You!" well, the people knew their Sunshine, Apple Pie, and Lollipop world was restored.

They never decided to try and learn the truth about anything that happened.

Part of me thinks perhaps they are right, and I do truly envy their uncomplicated simplicity. But it's the kind of naiveté that, once lost, can never be regained.

I know I've rambled here...but one thing of which I am very sure. God is everywhere. He is not only in the land of Sunshine, Apple Pie, and Lollipops.

"Like apples of gold in pictures of silver".......welcome to the journey of freedom. I will pray that your mate will climb aboard. When he does......run for the hills of freedom in Christ.

 

[Mathew Ward]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily talking about quoting someone by name.  When it comes to Combs my comment would probably be along the lines of. "A Bible teacher from my college days once said '..........'"  This goes back to my main point - just because someone does wrong does not erase the affect they had on my life.

Or we could give the credit to God for using someone to teach you a Biblical truth...just a thought

Yes, we should never mention anyone's name in a sermon or Bible study except for Gods.  Thank you for enlightening all of us.

Or we could yearn for the days of Jack Hyles and think and sing that everything was alright in my father's house.

 

[patriotic]

I reference things I remember about him or his messages more than I reference his books.  Probably the one chapter of any of his books I reference most often is "The Preacher and Language" in Teaching on Preaching.

I'm a nugget learner, not a volume learner.

Why not get a real book on the topic of grammar or public speaking?

Without counting, I can think of a dozen or so books I own and regularly reference several times a week on both those topics.

One might speculate from reading the majority of your posts that you read and reference multiple volumes on arrogant equines. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I reference things I remember about him or his messages more than I reference his books.  Probably the one chapter of any of his books I reference most often is "The Preacher and Language" in Teaching on Preaching.

I'm a nugget learner, not a volume learner.

Why not get a real book on the topic of grammar or public speaking?

Without counting, I can think of a dozen or so books I own and regularly reference several times a week on both those topics.

One might speculate from reading the majority of your posts that you read and reference multiple volumes on arrogant equines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svkgOsr7pUc

 

[RAIDER]

I reference things I remember about him or his messages more than I reference his books.  Probably the one chapter of any of his books I reference most often is "The Preacher and Language" in Teaching on Preaching.

I'm a nugget learner, not a volume learner.

Why not get a real book on the topic of grammar or public speaking?

Without counting, I can think of a dozen or so books I own and regularly reference several times a week on both those topics.

One might speculate from reading the majority of your posts that you read and reference multiple volumes on arrogant equines.

Ouch!! 

 

[Norefund]

Where did Jack Hyles earn a Doctorate degree?

 

[fishinnut]

Where did Jack Hyles earn a Doctorate degree?

It was honorary......like most HACker.

 

[Norefund]

Where did Jack Hyles earn a Doctorate degree?

It was honorary......like most HACker.

So why do we contribute to perpetuating this ridiculous practice by constantly referring to him and others as DR?

 

[fishinnut]

Where did Jack Hyles earn a Doctorate degree?

It was honorary......like most HACker.

So why do we contribute to perpetuating this ridiculous practice by constantly referring to him and others as DR?

Some do......but I call him what he called himself.

He told me in a personal conversation that he couldn't preach without, "Jackie-boy H....."

That's why I call him Jackie-boy.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Where did Jack Hyles earn a Doctorate degree?

He never earned a doctorate, he was anti-intellectual.