Do you still read/reference Dr. Hyles' books?

[Fresh Air]

I reference him once every few weeks in preaching probably...

Why?

Because he influenced me a great deal, and often as I'm preaching something he said will or did will come to mind. I do not necessarily plan to quote him or reference him, though I'm not afraid to either, but I often end up doing so.

 

[Walt]

I reference him once every few weeks in preaching probably...

Why?

Because he influenced me a great deal, and often as I'm preaching something he said will or did will come to mind. I do not necessarily plan to quote him or reference him, though I'm not afraid to either, but I often end up doing so.

Interesting thought.  When a man quotes another man without qualifications, in my mind, he is endorsing that man.

I try to be careful about whom I quote, or if I do quote someone, I usually qualify it so that the hearer knows that I don't fully endorse the one I am quoting.  For example, a lot of people don't like CS Lewis, but he has some remarkable quotes.

 

[RAIDER]

Interesting thought.  When a man quotes another man without qualifications, in my mind, he is endorsing that man.

I try to be careful about whom I quote, or if I do quote someone, I usually qualify it so that the hearer knows that I don't fully endorse the one I am quoting.  For example, a lot of people don't like CS Lewis, but he has some remarkable quotes.

Walt, while you are negative on all things Hyles, there are some whose lives were greatly impacted for positive by his ministry.  It is just natural to include their name in an event which you are referencing.

 

[kaba]

Interesting thought.  When a man quotes another man without qualifications, in my mind, he is endorsing that man.

I try to be careful about whom I quote, or if I do quote someone, I usually qualify it so that the hearer knows that I don't fully endorse the one I am quoting.  For example, a lot of people don't like CS Lewis, but he has some remarkable quotes.

Walt, while you are negative on all things Hyles, there are some whose lives were greatly impacted for positive by his ministry.  It is just natural to include their name in an event which you are referencing.

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

 

[RAIDER]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

 

[kaba]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

It does make sense, I just find myself questioning everything Pastors or people leadership now "preach" to me. And I question all that was taught to me.

 

[prophet]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

It does make sense, I just find myself questioning everything Pastors or people leadership now "preach" to me. And I question all that was taught to me.

Which is what was really wrong with Sargent Hyles, and his starry-eyed followers.  He was a coward who was so afraid of being discovered, that he bullied everyone who questioned him, to the point of inventing doctrine to aide in the bullying.

If you dont believe this, you never confronted him to his face.

 

[Bravo]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Do we then start quoting the good that Dave Hyles taught or did? I may reference an instance or two in personal conversation. But to bring up often in a sermon to my church? I don't understand that myself. Could be why I am "just a layman".

 

[Walt]

Interesting thought.  When a man quotes another man without qualifications, in my mind, he is endorsing that man.

I try to be careful about whom I quote, or if I do quote someone, I usually qualify it so that the hearer knows that I don't fully endorse the one I am quoting.  For example, a lot of people don't like CS Lewis, but he has some remarkable quotes.

Walt, while you are negative on all things Hyles, there are some whose lives were greatly impacted for positive by his ministry.  It is just natural to include their name in an event which you are referencing.

Granted, but I think he did harm along the way.  It is the refusal to acknowledge this that I find irksome. I'm sure that people far worse that Hyles have in some way been a blessing to others.

 

[Walt]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

 

[bgwilkinson]

I give Bro. Hyles credit for success in all my businesses.

He was a genius at marketing most anything.

He could sell air conditioners to Eskimos.

You could take his marketing principals and use them in your business and sell rings around your competition.

Remember the ball point pen speech at BJU?

People still remember it today. It was not a Bible sermon at all.

His type of soul winning was simply a high-pressure business sales pitch that would work with or without the working of the Holy Spirit.

It always gave us great numbers.

....but the fruit did not remain. We are unable to retain our  young people they stop going to any church anywhere.

I'm to old to change and learn new tricks.

I am talking about not retaining our HB graduates.

I do not want to reveal how bad it is, but it is bad.

Same is true with the retention in our bus ministry, that is why we can have big numbers and nothing to show for it when we look for the results.

I don't think it's just a problem at FBCH.

 

[Walt]

I give Bro. Hyles credit for success in all my businesses.

He was a genius at marketing most anything.

He could sell air conditioners to Eskimos.

Remember the ball point pen speech at BJU?

No; I hope that someone will enlighten me.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I give Bro. Hyles credit for success in all my businesses.

He was a genius at marketing most anything.

He could sell air conditioners to Eskimos.

Remember the ball point pen speech at BJU?

No; I hope that someone will enlighten me.

HOLY COW!

How can you claim to be a Hyles-hater and not have that sermon in your files?  It was his claim to fame in many circles and is STILL discussed at BJU today.  Mention JH to a BJUer and they will respond: Oh, the Bic pen guy?
No; I hope that someone will enlighten me.

 

[Fresh Air]

It does make sense, I just find myself questioning everything Pastors or people leadership now "preach" to me. And I question all that was taught to me.

This is completely natural in your situation, and I don't actually think it is a bad thing. By that I mean that it is good to examine the specifics of what you believe/practice and why. Such examinations have driven me, in my own life, to do them for the Lord and because the Bible teaches them, rather than b/c some man told me to.

The balance comes in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Scads of my peers have done/are making that mistake, and it is an egregious one. In their desperation to lurch out of the ditch on the side of the road they have swerved so quickly as to fall headlong into the ditch on the other side of the road.

Investigate. Question. Study. But be slow to change.

 

[Fresh Air]

Granted, but I think he did harm along the way.  It is the refusal to acknowledge this that I find irksome. I'm sure that people far worse that Hyles have in some way been a blessing to others.

I cannot, of course, speak for anybody else who quotes JH, but I think my people are pretty well aware of my opinion of him, both good and bad. I've worked hard to have a balanced one, and I've not been shy about sharing it. And I think that larger context informs my references of him.

 

[rsc2a]

Granted, but I think he did harm along the way.  It is the refusal to acknowledge this that I find irksome. I'm sure that people far worse that Hyles have in some way been a blessing to others.

I cannot, of course, speak for anybody else who quotes JH, but I think my people are pretty well aware of my opinion of him, both good and bad. I've worked hard to have a balanced one, and I've not been shy about sharing it. And I think that larger context informs my references of him.

If you are referencing a man every couple weeks from the pulpit and He didn't walk on water or write part of the Bible, you aren't having a balanced approach.

 

[Walt]

It does make sense, I just find myself questioning everything Pastors or people leadership now "preach" to me. And I question all that was taught to me.

This is completely natural in your situation, and I don't actually think it is a bad thing. By that I mean that it is good to examine the specifics of what you believe/practice and why. Such examinations have driven me, in my own life, to do them for the Lord and because the Bible teaches them, rather than b/c some man told me to.

The balance comes in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Scads of my peers have done/are making that mistake, and it is an egregious one. In their desperation to lurch out of the ditch on the side of the road they have swerved so quickly as to fall headlong into the ditch on the other side of the road.

Investigate. Question. Study. But be slow to change.

Excellent advice.  I've seen many cases of over-correction.  I still think IFB churches are right, and just because I think JH did more harm than good, I don't intend to stop being IFB.

 

[Walt]

Granted, but I think he did harm along the way.  It is the refusal to acknowledge this that I find irksome. I'm sure that people far worse that Hyles have in some way been a blessing to others.

I cannot, of course, speak for anybody else who quotes JH, but I think my people are pretty well aware of my opinion of him, both good and bad. I've worked hard to have a balanced one, and I've not been shy about sharing it. And I think that larger context informs my references of him.

Certainly. You have, in various times and places, given qualifications about JH.  But I've heard pastor who don't agree with much of what he taught, but they've never said anything.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

While I understand that some people were highly impacted for the positive by Hyles, I truely have a hard time understanding how you can still remain positive towards him. I dont hate the man, but so much happened that hurt so many people by his leadership. I think of those still "quoting" schaap or Gray or combs.  I really struggle having any positive thoughts about anything those men preached about. I dont think they all of a sudden turned bad, It was a process.  I really struggle having a good attitude about all the crap that happened.

I don't believe that acknowledging the good things that you received from an individual necessarily means that you are positive about them.  Let's say I had a close friend who was a blessing to me for many years.  This friend betrays me and does something terrible.  This individual and I may no longer be friends, but I am sure not going to throw out every good thing that he did for me.

Joe Combs is a despicable creature.  I cannot fathom the things that he did.  I have no desire to see or speak with him.  On the other hand, I cannot toss out the good that I learned from him.

I hope I make sense.

Yes, makes sense, but I don't agree.  If you quote Joe Combs without qualification, it gives the impression that you agree with him and endorse him. And that goes for anyone that is quoted.  Preachers that quote Spurgeon are presumed to agree with him.

Visited chapel once within the past few years where a graduate/guest preacher quoted JC by name. First time I heard it I got nauseated, second time JC's name was mentioned, I exited the room. If one feels something learned from a deviate is worth mentioning, please rephrase it so it's not a quote. There!

 

[kaba]

It does make sense, I just find myself questioning everything Pastors or people leadership now "preach" to me. And I question all that was taught to me.

This is completely natural in your situation, and I don't actually think it is a bad thing. By that I mean that it is good to examine the specifics of what you believe/practice and why. Such examinations have driven me, in my own life, to do them for the Lord and because the Bible teaches them, rather than b/c some man told me to.

The balance comes in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Scads of my peers have done/are making that mistake, and it is an egregious one. In their desperation to lurch out of the ditch on the side of the road they have swerved so quickly as to fall headlong into the ditch on the other side of the road.

Investigate. Question. Study. But be slow to change.

Thank you for the words of encouragement. I have too seen those that were in the IFB now totally opposite and very hateful and mean toward anything God or IFB. But I have to thank the Lord for my parents and their Godly example. My upbrining is what has helped me keep strong in the Lord-just been disappointed in man.