Did it really harm us?

[RAIDER]

RAIDER,

You are a HACker through and through.  You are a JH apologist.  You still adhere to the same philosophies taught to you by the "late, great, Jack Hyels" and all of his chronies.  You still journey to Mecca - er - Hammond.

It is time to recognize that the system in FBCH / HAC is idolatry, not to mention lasciviousness, pride, anger, refusing the correction of God, blameshifting, manipulation, abuse, et. al.  Does this hurt people?  YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!  Why don't you talk to the girls and boys who were raped by the leadership team at FBCH / HAC if the system was a place that hurt people?  Why don't you talk to the thousands of abuse victims (most of whom you don't know about) of HAC grads if they were hurt?  What if we were to even ignore the abuse victims (because apparently you think rape doesn't really hurt people - you stinkin' moron).  The Hyles dynasty were kings among the IFB world.  Does that make them "good?"  Does their evil outweigh their wickedness?  Does the fact that they were kings make them righteous despite their actions?  I tell you what.  Why not look at the Bible to see what God thinks instead of mandating your opinion be correct for the whole world.  Try reading Kings and Chronicles (They are books in the Old Testament of the Bible - Don't worry, they should be in your KJV, at least they are in mine).  How did God treat the kings of the nation?  Asa restored temple worship, but was rebuked for misappropriation of funds.  Jehoram was killed for his adultery and idolatry.  Amaziah was slain for idolatry.  Uzziah was smitten to death with leprosy for his pride in worship of God.  Get the idea?

Look, you grew up with a good foundation.  You spent a short time at HAC and ignored some of heresy while you grew up.  You left with good memories and shook your head at what you deemed silly.  You were lied to about the abuse and crimes that were taking place.  Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people.

God gives us in His inspired transcription of history the account of kings He killed for similar crimes of the Hyles dynasty.  I don't see a need to defend the heretics.

You need to pay attention to the OP before you go off the deep end.  I said this thread was to be viewed from the angle of a college student attending HAC for four years and then leaving.

I am not a JH apologist.  I received good from his preaching and teaching while I was there.  I did not know of any scandals.  This was my experience.  Now that I know more information I have issues.  I did not know the information at the time. 

This is not a thread about all that we now know.  It is a thread about our experience while we were there.  You have a lengthy paragraph about some terrible things.  I knew of none of this while I was at HAC.  Things have now come to light. 

You are a moron if you think I am a Hacker.  You are a bigger moron if you think I journey to Hammond.  I haven't been there for many years. 

You make yourself look stupid when you say,  "Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people."  I have said several times that I did not know this sin was occurring while I was at HAC.  I did not say that people were not hurt.  I did not say that sin has no impact on people.

This thread is for people to talk about their years at HAC.  With what you knew during your years there were you harmed.  No, I was not!

Is there something here you're upset about?

Me or Binaca Chugger?

 

[Vince Massi]

Folks, you need to realize that HAC was not always the same during different time periods, and all students were not treated the same.

In the very beginning, HAC excelled in both Godliness and sin. If one grad managed to go through with the mostly-good side, while another grad went through the mostly-bad side, neither one is lying when he tells what happened.

 

[Bruh]

Ms. Mayo, was the meanest teacher I ever had, in my entire life.

 

[RAIDER]

Folks, you need to realize that HAC was not always the same during different time periods.

In the very beginning, HAC excelled in both Godliness and sin. If one grad managed to go through with the mostly-good side, while another grad went through the mostly-bad side, neither one is lying when he tells what happened.

It's not often that I agree with anything that you say, but I will have to mostly agree with the above edited post.  This is the very reason that I started this thread.  There are many factors to ones opinion of HAC.  One of the factors is in fact when you attended and what you knew at the time.

I attended from '79 - '83.  While some may have known what was going on with Dave, I never heard even the slightest rumor.  I was not a HBer.  I came from out of state to attend HAC.  The reputation of HAC and FBCH were great.  I was able to attend and graduate with few problems. 

Some posters on here seem to think I defend all things HAC/FBCH.  Nothing is further than the truth.  On this thread I am speaking only of my experience while I was a student.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Ms. Mayo, was the meanest teacher I ever had, in my entire life.

Remember how she would flip her collar and preach against being "cool?"  I never forgot that.  It also sticks with me what she was while she was telling us not to be "cool."  She didn't hold a candle to Rhodes.  Rhodes was not as mean as Sumner.  Those guys...whole different level.

 

[Bruh]

Ms. Mayo, was the meanest teacher I ever had, in my entire life.

Remember how she would flip her collar and preach against being "cool?"  I never forgot that.  It also sticks with me what she was while she was telling us not to be "cool."  She didn't hold a candle to Rhodes.  Rhodes was not as mean as Sumner.  Those guys...whole different level.

That woman tried preachen against everything. 

One year she gets in front of the class and starts in on the little convenience store down from her parents house where she grew up, or something, and says how this store now has playboy magazines and that she walked in and threw the whole rack on the floor and that she would not put up with this as long as her parents lived down the road. 

I went home and asked my mom what playboy magazines where.  LOL!!

My older brother had Rhodes and says he was mean and he humiliated him once in front of the class.  But yes, I believe Sumner was worse, I remember him being cocky for some reason, maybe not?

I didn't have Rhodes but I can't imagine him being worse than Mayo, she was hateful.   

Now, Ms. Cogley, I pretty much just feel sorry for that lady, we put her through hell and I believe it was her first year teaching.  LOL!! Poor lady.     



I love reminiscing about grade school. 

 

[Binaca Chugger]

RAIDER,

You are a HACker through and through.  You are a JH apologist.  You still adhere to the same philosophies taught to you by the "late, great, Jack Hyels" and all of his chronies.  You still journey to Mecca - er - Hammond.

It is time to recognize that the system in FBCH / HAC is idolatry, not to mention lasciviousness, pride, anger, refusing the correction of God, blameshifting, manipulation, abuse, et. al.  Does this hurt people?  YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!  Why don't you talk to the girls and boys who were raped by the leadership team at FBCH / HAC if the system was a place that hurt people?  Why don't you talk to the thousands of abuse victims (most of whom you don't know about) of HAC grads if they were hurt?  What if we were to even ignore the abuse victims (because apparently you think rape doesn't really hurt people - you stinkin' moron).  The Hyles dynasty were kings among the IFB world.  Does that make them "good?"  Does their evil outweigh their wickedness?  Does the fact that they were kings make them righteous despite their actions?  I tell you what.  Why not look at the Bible to see what God thinks instead of mandating your opinion be correct for the whole world.  Try reading Kings and Chronicles (They are books in the Old Testament of the Bible - Don't worry, they should be in your KJV, at least they are in mine).  How did God treat the kings of the nation?  Asa restored temple worship, but was rebuked for misappropriation of funds.  Jehoram was killed for his adultery and idolatry.  Amaziah was slain for idolatry.  Uzziah was smitten to death with leprosy for his pride in worship of God.  Get the idea?

Look, you grew up with a good foundation.  You spent a short time at HAC and ignored some of heresy while you grew up.  You left with good memories and shook your head at what you deemed silly.  You were lied to about the abuse and crimes that were taking place.  Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people.

God gives us in His inspired transcription of history the account of kings He killed for similar crimes of the Hyles dynasty.  I don't see a need to defend the heretics.

You need to pay attention to the OP before you go off the deep end.  I said this thread was to be viewed from the angle of a college student attending HAC for four years and then leaving.

From the OP:

did the time there really harm us?  Did it lessen our walk with Christ?  Did it make us a bad testimony?  Did it instill in us heresy?  Did we leave HAC with a closer walk with God or further from Him?

I guess you need to define "us."  If "us" is only your pack of pals, apparently you were not harmed.  If "us" is the general population we will have a different answer.  If "us" includes me and those I know, the answer is YES.

You have had many posters already tell you how they came to HAC with grandiose ideas of serving God and left with a lessened desire.  So, YES, HAC lessened people's walk with Christ.  HAC turns people away from Christ and towards men.  This is the pride system of MOG worship that is so prevalent at HAC.

A bad testimony?  YES.  Your degree states that you received your training for the ministry by those who permit child abuse of various types.  I speak to people in different circles.  Each of the circles are well aware of the scandals of FBCH and HAC.  I no longer state the name of my alma mater unless directly asked.  I do not wish to be associated with such criminals who believe that a position in ministry permit crimes against children.

Instill in us heresy?  YES!  If you don't recognize that, you have yet to discover what the Bible is all about and thus, have proved the answer to be "yes."

I am not a JH apologist.  I received good from his preaching and teaching while I was there.  I did not know of any scandals.  This was my experience.  Now that I know more information I have issues.  I did not know the information at the time. 

This is not a thread about all that we now know.  It is a thread about our experience while we were there.  You have a lengthy paragraph about some terrible things.  I knew of none of this while I was at HAC.  Things have now come to light. 

You are a moron if you think I am a Hacker.  You are a bigger moron if you think I journey to Hammond.  I haven't been there for many years. 

You sure do come across as a JH apologist who didn't drink all of the kool-aid, just the vitamin water.  You repeatedly make warm and fuzzy posts about all your friends and good times at HAC.  You are happy to continue to promote the same doctrines and practices that were taught to you at HAC.  Now, you are asking if anyone was really hurt while at HAC, as if we are supposed to be happy about learning great things from a great institution led by great men.  Sorry, RAIDER, these men were heretics.  Any Christ likeness found in me is because of my Bible despite all things FBCH.  When you continue to wax eloquent about your learnings from the greatest institution in the early 80's, you sure do sound like a JH apologist HACker.

Check your post on Feb 2.  You told us you were in the area.  I guess believing you makes me a moron.  :

You make yourself look stupid

  No need - I Have a HAC diplomoa for that.  8) 

when you say,  "Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people."  I have said several times that I did not know this sin was occurring while I was at HAC.  I did not say that people were not hurt.  I did not say that sin has no impact on people.

This thread is for people to talk about their years at HAC.  With what you knew during your years there were you harmed.  No, I was not!

You asked if it really harmed us.  If us is people who attended there or were brought there -YES!  It harmed us.  Two of my high school classmates were brought to Hammond by dads who wanted to attend and have their children in eutopia.  One, the dad started raping the daughter and beating the boys.  This character dropped out of HAC.  Another was beating his daughter.  I helped her escape to other family.  That character was well respected by the upper echelon of HAC and now pastors.  Your teachers who were "inspiring" you to know God, were raping and beating little girls.  If this has no effect on you, it should.  You should be able to acknowledge that the system of religion that allows such travesty is perverse.  Thus, you should be able to acknowledge that you were taught heresy and built much of your ministry on heresy.  This is not a personal attack - it is a statement of fact that one who really desires to point others to Christ must acknowledge.

Go ahead.  Talk about your years at HAC and how you were not harmed.  Apparently, you don't realize how harmed you really were.  You were taught a heresy by pride-filled, sex-crazed criminals.  Yet, you claim you were not harmed because you did not realize who these people really were.  I claim you don't realize how harmed you really were.

 

[kaba]

Ms. Mayo, was the meanest teacher I ever had, in my entire life.

Remember how she would flip her collar and preach against being "cool?"  I never forgot that.  It also sticks with me what she was while she was telling us not to be "cool."  She didn't hold a candle to Rhodes.  Rhodes was not as mean as Sumner.  Those guys...whole different level.

That woman tried preachen against everything. 

One year she gets in front of the class and starts in on the little convenience store down from her parents house where she grew up, or something, and says how this store now has playboy magazines and that she walked in and threw the whole rack on the floor and that she would not put up with this as long as her parents lived down the road. 

I went home and asked my mom what playboy magazines where.  LOL!!

My older brother had Rhodes and says he was mean and he humiliated him once in front of the class.  But yes, I believe Sumner was worse, I remember him being cocky for some reason, maybe not?

I didn't have Rhodes but I can't imagine him being worse than Mayo, she was hateful.   

Now, Ms. Cogley, I pretty much just feel sorry for that lady, we put her through hell and I believe it was her first year teaching.  LOL!! Poor lady.     



I love reminiscing about grade school.

As I read what you guys went through at HB, I thought I NEVER felt any of that at my public school. We had well behaved classes and the teachers cared for us, or at least let us think that! Shame on HB for the treatment to you guys. I remember student teaching, and seeing the interaction with the teacher-student, and being uncomfortable with it. There was a third grade teacher, dark hair, fall of 1985, she seemed like a nice teacher. I student taught with the heavy set red haired lady, she always had food in her desk. She was nice, but I felt she was rough on the kids.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Ms. Mayo, was the meanest teacher I ever had, in my entire life.

Remember how she would flip her collar and preach against being "cool?"  I never forgot that.  It also sticks with me what she was while she was telling us not to be "cool."  She didn't hold a candle to Rhodes.  Rhodes was not as mean as Sumner.  Those guys...whole different level.

That woman tried preachen against everything. 

One year she gets in front of the class and starts in on the little convenience store down from her parents house where she grew up, or something, and says how this store now has playboy magazines and that she walked in and threw the whole rack on the floor and that she would not put up with this as long as her parents lived down the road. 

I went home and asked my mom what playboy magazines where.  LOL!!

My older brother had Rhodes and says he was mean and he humiliated him once in front of the class.  But yes, I believe Sumner was worse, I remember him being cocky for some reason, maybe not?

I didn't have Rhodes but I can't imagine him being worse than Mayo, she was hateful.   

Now, Ms. Cogley, I pretty much just feel sorry for that lady, we put her through hell and I believe it was her first year teaching.  LOL!! Poor lady.     



I love reminiscing about grade school.

As I read what you guys went through at HB, I thought I NEVER felt any of that at my public school. We had well behaved classes and the teachers cared for us, or at least let us think that! Shame on HB for the treatment to you guys. I remember student teaching, and seeing the interaction with the teacher-student, and being uncomfortable with it. There was a third grade teacher, dark hair, fall of 1985, she seemed like a nice teacher. I student taught with the heavy set red haired lady, she always had food in her desk. She was nice, but I felt she was rough on the kids.

Rhodes would konk boys in the head with his African walking stick while walking around the room.  This was intended (so he told us) to distract us from studying so the girls could get better grades and win his contests.  Besides, boys were supposed to be able to handle more pressure.  He was (or so he told us) teaching us to handle the knocks of life.

 

[RAIDER]

RAIDER,

You are a HACker through and through.  You are a JH apologist.  You still adhere to the same philosophies taught to you by the "late, great, Jack Hyels" and all of his chronies.  You still journey to Mecca - er - Hammond.

It is time to recognize that the system in FBCH / HAC is idolatry, not to mention lasciviousness, pride, anger, refusing the correction of God, blameshifting, manipulation, abuse, et. al.  Does this hurt people?  YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!  Why don't you talk to the girls and boys who were raped by the leadership team at FBCH / HAC if the system was a place that hurt people?  Why don't you talk to the thousands of abuse victims (most of whom you don't know about) of HAC grads if they were hurt?  What if we were to even ignore the abuse victims (because apparently you think rape doesn't really hurt people - you stinkin' moron).  The Hyles dynasty were kings among the IFB world.  Does that make them "good?"  Does their evil outweigh their wickedness?  Does the fact that they were kings make them righteous despite their actions?  I tell you what.  Why not look at the Bible to see what God thinks instead of mandating your opinion be correct for the whole world.  Try reading Kings and Chronicles (They are books in the Old Testament of the Bible - Don't worry, they should be in your KJV, at least they are in mine).  How did God treat the kings of the nation?  Asa restored temple worship, but was rebuked for misappropriation of funds.  Jehoram was killed for his adultery and idolatry.  Amaziah was slain for idolatry.  Uzziah was smitten to death with leprosy for his pride in worship of God.  Get the idea?

Look, you grew up with a good foundation.  You spent a short time at HAC and ignored some of heresy while you grew up.  You left with good memories and shook your head at what you deemed silly.  You were lied to about the abuse and crimes that were taking place.  Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people.

God gives us in His inspired transcription of history the account of kings He killed for similar crimes of the Hyles dynasty.  I don't see a need to defend the heretics.

You need to pay attention to the OP before you go off the deep end.  I said this thread was to be viewed from the angle of a college student attending HAC for four years and then leaving.

From the OP:

did the time there really harm us?  Did it lessen our walk with Christ?  Did it make us a bad testimony?  Did it instill in us heresy?  Did we leave HAC with a closer walk with God or further from Him?

I guess you need to define "us."  If "us" is only your pack of pals, apparently you were not harmed.  If "us" is the general population we will have a different answer.  If "us" includes me and those I know, the answer is YES.

You have had many posters already tell you how they came to HAC with grandiose ideas of serving God and left with a lessened desire.  So, YES, HAC lessened people's walk with Christ.  HAC turns people away from Christ and towards men.  This is the pride system of MOG worship that is so prevalent at HAC.

A bad testimony?  YES.  Your degree states that you received your training for the ministry by those who permit child abuse of various types.  I speak to people in different circles.  Each of the circles are well aware of the scandals of FBCH and HAC.  I no longer state the name of my alma mater unless directly asked.  I do not wish to be associated with such criminals who believe that a position in ministry permit crimes against children.

Instill in us heresy?  YES!  If you don't recognize that, you have yet to discover what the Bible is all about and thus, have proved the answer to be "yes."

I am not a JH apologist.  I received good from his preaching and teaching while I was there.  I did not know of any scandals.  This was my experience.  Now that I know more information I have issues.  I did not know the information at the time. 

This is not a thread about all that we now know.  It is a thread about our experience while we were there.  You have a lengthy paragraph about some terrible things.  I knew of none of this while I was at HAC.  Things have now come to light. 

You are a moron if you think I am a Hacker.  You are a bigger moron if you think I journey to Hammond.  I haven't been there for many years. 

You sure do come across as a JH apologist who didn't drink all of the kool-aid, just the vitamin water.  You repeatedly make warm and fuzzy posts about all your friends and good times at HAC.  You are happy to continue to promote the same doctrines and practices that were taught to you at HAC.  Now, you are asking if anyone was really hurt while at HAC, as if we are supposed to be happy about learning great things from a great institution led by great men.  Sorry, RAIDER, these men were heretics.  Any Christ likeness found in me is because of my Bible despite all things FBCH.  When you continue to wax eloquent about your learnings from the greatest institution in the early 80's, you sure do sound like a JH apologist HACker.

Check your post on Feb 2.  You told us you were in the area.  I guess believing you makes me a moron.  :

You make yourself look stupid

  No need - I Have a HAC diplomoa for that.  8) 

when you say,  "Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people."  I have said several times that I did not know this sin was occurring while I was at HAC.  I did not say that people were not hurt.  I did not say that sin has no impact on people.

This thread is for people to talk about their years at HAC.  With what you knew during your years there were you harmed.  No, I was not!

You asked if it really harmed us.  If us is people who attended there or were brought there -YES!  It harmed us.  Two of my high school classmates were brought to Hammond by dads who wanted to attend and have their children in eutopia.  One, the dad started raping the daughter and beating the boys.  This character dropped out of HAC.  Another was beating his daughter.  I helped her escape to other family.  That character was well respected by the upper echelon of HAC and now pastors.  Your teachers who were "inspiring" you to know God, were raping and beating little girls.  If this has no effect on you, it should.  You should be able to acknowledge that the system of religion that allows such travesty is perverse.  Thus, you should be able to acknowledge that you were taught heresy and built much of your ministry on heresy.  This is not a personal attack - it is a statement of fact that one who really desires to point others to Christ must acknowledge.

Go ahead.  Talk about your years at HAC and how you were not harmed.  Apparently, you don't realize how harmed you really were.  You were taught a heresy by pride-filled, sex-crazed criminals.  Yet, you claim you were not harmed because you did not realize who these people really were.  I claim you don't realize how harmed you really were.

Binaca Chugger, because you have issues with your time at HAC doesn't mean I share the same and visa versa.  Each person has their own story.  I have no problem with you asking me questions about why I feel a certain way about HAC, but your loose cannon accusations of me are way off.

When I say "us" in the OP I am talking about those that attended HAC.  You were scarred for life from your time there, I was not.  I don't know what years you attended but I am guessing it was a different time than me.

You choose not to mention your alma mater.  That is your choice.  I don't have a problem telling people that I am a HAC grad from the early/mid '80s.  If I were a Penn State grad I would not have a problem saying it. 

Because I post about the good times and good friends I had at HAC you classify me as a "JH apologist".  Come on, you have to be smarter than that.  The posters on the FFF that know me know that I am far from being a Hacker or HAC lover.

You say, "You are happy to continue to promote the same doctrines and practices that were taught to you at HAC". You need to get your head out of the sand.  Are you telling me that you don't have ANY of the same doctrines that were taught to you at HAC?  Get real.

You also falsely say, "When you continue to wax eloquent about your learnings from the greatest institution in the early 80's, you sure do sound like a JH apologist HACker".  Because I learned some good things as a young man at HAC does not put me in this category.  It makes me honest instead of a total hater.

You then say, "Check your post on Feb 2.  You told us you were in the area.  I guess believing you makes me a moron.  : "  Yes, it does make you a moron.  I was heading to Ohio and I was on the Interstate passing by Indianapolis Blvd. at lunch time.  I pulled off to get a bite and drove past the old Shakey's location.  You are a meathead!

Did you know about the problems and scandals at HAC before you attended there?  If so, I must ask, why did you attend?  I knew of nothing before I went or while I was attending.  There is a BIG difference.

As some of the posters have pointed out to me, you need to realize that everyone's experience was different.  Let me paint you a scenario.  Let's say that I was let to the Lord by a fellow with whom I worked.  He was a great example to me and shared the Gospel with me.  After I was saved he discipled me and taught me much of the Christian life.  Years later I find out that the guy was beating his wife.  He ends up killing her.  Yes, I am crushed.  Yes, I am angry.  No, I don't have a desire to see him.  Do I forget what he did for me?  NO!!  Do I unlearn everything he taught me?  NO!!  Was there a time he was a blessing to me?  YES!

 

[Bravo]

Here's my question to you Raider (from your years) and Tom Brennan (from our years there),...

I get that Raider did not know what was going on in his time. Brennan and I were in the group that was there when the wagons were circling and did not believe all of the accusations. This may be a "baby and bath water" question,... All those teachings from our respective time there was from a time when it was happening or the fallout of what happened. If leaders knew all those years what was going on can we trust that their teachings on subjects there were supposedly about right and wrong when so much wrong was being covered up? Or to some lesser degree by other individuals still going on. Did those teachings just foster an environment when those wrongs could continue (like don't question leadership etc)

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Because I post about the good times and good friends I had at HAC you classify me as a "JH apologist".  Come on, you have to be smarter than that.  The posters on the FFF that know me know that I am far from being a Hacker or HAC lover.

I can vouch for this. RAIDER is a stinkin' deadbeat so there is no way he can be a true HACker, (at least not a blindly loyal one). 

 

[RAIDER]

Here's my question to you Raider (from your years) and Tom Brennan (from our years there),...

I get that Raider did not know what was going on in his time. Brennan and I were in the group that was there when the wagons were circling and did not believe all of the accusations. This may be a "baby and bath water" question,... All those teachings from our respective time there was from a time when it was happening or the fallout of what happened. If leaders knew all those years what was going on can we trust that their teachings on subjects there were supposedly about right and wrong when so much wrong was being covered up? Or to some lesser degree by other individuals still going on. Did those teachings just foster an environment when those wrongs could continue (like don't question leadership etc)

You have a great point.  You have to wonder if some of the teaching and preaching during that time was "slanted" to deal with or cover up issues.  I had graduated and only heard things from a distance.  I still remember when my pastor brought me a copy of the Biblical Evangelist which had the article "The Saddest Story".  I was shocked and devastated and didn't know what to think.

Smellin' has a theory that Dr. Hyles changed his view on the KJV as a distraction to what was going on.  Not sure I agree, but an interesting theory none the less.

 

[RAIDER]

Because I post about the good times and good friends I had at HAC you classify me as a "JH apologist".  Come on, you have to be smarter than that.  The posters on the FFF that know me know that I am far from being a Hacker or HAC lover.

I can vouch for this. RAIDER is a stinkin' deadbeat so there is no way he can be a true HACker, (at least not a blindly loyal one). 

Faithful are the wounds of a Hacker!

 

[BALAAM]

Here's my question to you Raider (from your years) and Tom Brennan (from our years there),...

I get that Raider did not know what was going on in his time. Brennan and I were in the group that was there when the wagons were circling and did not believe all of the accusations. This may be a "baby and bath water" question,... All those teachings from our respective time there was from a time when it was happening or the fallout of what happened. If leaders knew all those years what was going on can we trust that their teachings on subjects there were supposedly about right and wrong when so much wrong was being covered up? Or to some lesser degree by other individuals still going on. Did those teachings just foster an environment when those wrongs could continue (like don't question leadership etc)

I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. I was in hac from 88 - 92 while this was going on. I knew absolutely nothing about dh or any allegations. We were told over and over that jh knew nothing and from jh's own mouth that this battle was over the Bible and soul-winning. We were told on several occasions that Dr. Sumner was going blind. Ostensibly it was because he wrote the article and this was divine punishment. He is not blind yet.

After being in the area for nearly 30 years I have run across about a dozen people (some are now relatives) who will tell me that jh knew exactly what was going on because dh did something to them or tried to and they went directly to jh and told him. Several he chased from his office. People who were raised here and worked in the youth department says everyone knew what dh was doing and you would have to be blind not to. (Mr. Ed included)

Now, with all of that: How do you take anything that you were taught very seriously? As smart as jh was he probably did more damage to himself and his cause by this than anything else because the tendency is to throw out nearly all of what he taught.

 

[Walt]

I have been hesitant to post on this topic because I never went to HAC; I had a "once removed from HAC" experience -- by which I mean that we attended a church pastored by a man who went to HAC and thought that JH was the greatest man every to live, maybe with the exception of the Apostle Paul.

Yes, we were harmed!

When we started there as a young couple (pre-kids), we had our own Bible study times and together, tried to pray more, and tried to be a good witness in society.  We came from more laid-back churches that were truly transparent in many areas.  We weren't perfect, and neither were our former churches.

We soon "learned" that private Bible study was something to which only lip service was given.  The only things that counted were either giving lots of money or "going soul-winning", by which they meant knocking on stranger's doors and attempting to "win" them, and get them into church.

When everyone around us was consumed with the externals, it was hard to keep up a personal Bible study and bother about such "useless" things as holiness or our standing before God. It was all about what PASTOR would think of us.

Praise the Lord, He in mercy opened our eyes to the situation and we left after many years, but I'm afraid it may have damaged our children  slightly; I know that I was deeply discouraged in our final years because I could never be good enough to merit God's blessings.

 

[prophet]

I have been hesitant to post on this topic because I never went to HAC; I had a "once removed from HAC" experience -- by which I mean that we attended a church pastored by a man who went to HAC and thought that JH was the greatest man every to live, maybe with the exception of the Apostle Paul.

Yes, we were harmed!

When we started there as a young couple (pre-kids), we had our own Bible study times and together, tried to pray more, and tried to be a good witness in society.  We came from more laid-back churches that were truly transparent in many areas.  We weren't perfect, and neither were our former churches.

We soon "learned" that private Bible study was something to which only lip service was given.  The only things that counted were either giving lots of money or "going soul-winning", by which they meant knocking on stranger's doors and attempting to "win" them, and get them into church.

When everyone around us was consumed with the externals, it was hard to keep up a personal Bible study and bother about such "useless" things as holiness or our standing before God. It was all about what PASTOR would think of us.

Praise the Lord, He in mercy opened our eyes to the situation and we left after many years, but I'm afraid it may have damaged our children  slightly; I know that I was deeply discouraged in our final years because I could never be good enough to merit God's blessings.

Your last line, about never being good enough, is a HACker trademark.
Many lives in many churches have been harmed by the evil of leadership that can't admit faults, and browbeats its followers.

 

[Fresh Air]

Here's my question to you Raider (from your years) and Tom Brennan (from our years there),...

I get that Raider did not know what was going on in his time. Brennan and I were in the group that was there when the wagons were circling and did not believe all of the accusations. This may be a "baby and bath water" question,... All those teachings from our respective time there was from a time when it was happening or the fallout of what happened. If leaders knew all those years what was going on can we trust that their teachings on subjects there were supposedly about right and wrong when so much wrong was being covered up? Or to some lesser degree by other individuals still going on. Did those teachings just foster an environment when those wrongs could continue (like don't question leadership etc)

The short answer to your question is - we can't. We can't trust anything we were told. And we aren't supposed to. I just preached last night about misplaced faith. You can have all the faith in the world but if you put it in the wrong object you are in trouble. And no man is a worthy object of your faith.

Practically speaking, what does that mean? That I had to re-examine everything. And I think I've done that. Most of it I've kept b/c I do find the roots of it to be biblical, especially when applied scripturally. Some of it I've chucked, and I think I've been pretty open about that on here through the years. To sum up my current perspective, I've thrown away most of the environment and kept most of its underlying beliefs. (Yes, I realize a whole bunch of people rather violently disagree with the wisdom of that last sentence.) For instance, I emphasize personal soul winning but I don't push numbers. I emphasize holiness rather than standards, though I still have practically the same standards I had back then. I lead with authority but I teach my people to question me and that I am not always right. etc. etc.

 

[Bruh]

Ms. Mayo, was the meanest teacher I ever had, in my entire life.

Remember how she would flip her collar and preach against being "cool?"  I never forgot that.  It also sticks with me what she was while she was telling us not to be "cool."  She didn't hold a candle to Rhodes.  Rhodes was not as mean as Sumner.  Those guys...whole different level.

That woman tried preachen against everything. 

One year she gets in front of the class and starts in on the little convenience store down from her parents house where she grew up, or something, and says how this store now has playboy magazines and that she walked in and threw the whole rack on the floor and that she would not put up with this as long as her parents lived down the road. 

I went home and asked my mom what playboy magazines where.  LOL!!

My older brother had Rhodes and says he was mean and he humiliated him once in front of the class.  But yes, I believe Sumner was worse, I remember him being cocky for some reason, maybe not?

I didn't have Rhodes but I can't imagine him being worse than Mayo, she was hateful.   

Now, Ms. Cogley, I pretty much just feel sorry for that lady, we put her through hell and I believe it was her first year teaching.  LOL!! Poor lady.     



I love reminiscing about grade school.

As I read what you guys went through at HB, I thought I NEVER felt any of that at my public school. We had well behaved classes and the teachers cared for us, or at least let us think that! Shame on HB for the treatment to you guys. I remember student teaching, and seeing the interaction with the teacher-student, and being uncomfortable with it. There was a third grade teacher, dark hair, fall of 1985, she seemed like a nice teacher. I student taught with the heavy set red haired lady, she always had food in her desk. She was nice, but I felt she was rough on the kids.

Rhodes would konk boys in the head with his African walking stick while walking around the room.  This was intended (so he told us) to distract us from studying so the girls could get better grades and win his contests.  Besides, boys were supposed to be able to handle more pressure.  He was (or so he told us) teaching us to handle the knocks of life.

Well, I was there till 5th grade and my parents moved.  I went to public school after that till I graduated. 

Public school was tough learned a lot about sex, drugs and rock and roll and I would be lying if I said I didn't have fun, because I had a blast.........for a season. 

Dark haired teacher 3rd grade, that could be Mizell or Fielder.  I had Fielder from what I remember she was good.  Mizell my younger brother had her and from what I know it was not a pleasant experience for him, I remember when I was in 3rd grade in Ms. Fielder's class that she was yelling at the top of her lungs at her class, Mizell that is. 

My older brother had the red head Mrs. Anderson, she seemed ok, from what I know of her. 

No hard feelings with that place, it didn't do anything for my parents.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Here's my question to you Raider (from your years) and Tom Brennan (from our years there),...

I get that Raider did not know what was going on in his time. Brennan and I were in the group that was there when the wagons were circling and did not believe all of the accusations. This may be a "baby and bath water" question,... All those teachings from our respective time there was from a time when it was happening or the fallout of what happened. If leaders knew all those years what was going on can we trust that their teachings on subjects there were supposedly about right and wrong when so much wrong was being covered up? Or to some lesser degree by other individuals still going on. Did those teachings just foster an environment when those wrongs could continue (like don't question leadership etc)

The short answer to your question is - we can't. We can't trust anything we were told. And we aren't supposed to. I just preached last night about misplaced faith. You can have all the faith in the world but if you put it in the wrong object you are in trouble. And no man is a worthy object of your faith.

Practically speaking, what does that mean? That I had to re-examine everything. And I think I've done that. Most of it I've kept b/c I do find the roots of it to be biblical, especially when applied scripturally. Some of it I've chucked, and I think I've been pretty open about that on here through the years. To sum up my current perspective, I've thrown away most of the environment and kept most of its underlying beliefs. (Yes, I realize a whole bunch of people rather violently disagree with the wisdom of that last sentence.) For instance, I emphasize personal soul winning but I don't push numbers. I emphasize holiness rather than standards, though I still have practically the same standards I had back then. I lead with authority but I teach my people to question me and that I am not always right. etc. etc.

^^^This.

Difference is - I grew up there - nursery through college.  I knew nothing else.  Don't get me wrong.  We knew things weren't right, rebelled against the system and looked longingly at the outside world.  But, breaking through those walls put up by the system is life altering.  If you haven't lived it, you just don't understand.  Try watching The Truman Show.  When Truman realized his whole world as he knew it was a sham and broke through the door I whispered to my wife: "That's me."

Yep, at such a moment, you question everything - even the existence of God.  My story?  I found my Bible and started reading.  What I read there is what I am - not anything that JH, JS, EL or even my parents taught me.

JH built his ministry with some foundational precepts that were true.  From there, his revenge against the SBC and ego took over and corrupted even his foundations.  Hence, it became all about the numbers.  To this day, some people believe it was great simply because it was big.  How sad.