Did it really harm us?
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Timotheus said:
While what your friend said is true to a point, it's not completely accurate. There were many that graduated from HAC that were far from tough. There were also many that started but did not finish. I'm not sure if that percentage is larger than a state university or not. Those that learned "street smarts" while at HAC could easily "survive", learn, and enjoy their time there. Those that came with their head in the sand usually had a miserable time.
One of the things I've noticed again and again on the forum is the difference between those who were disappointed by aspects of HAC and those that were disillusioned/disenchanted by aspects of HAC. In many respects the difference was not in what happened at HAC for it happened to both sides. The difference was in the level of enchantment one had towards the place to begin with. If you never got enchanted you didn't get disenchanted. IOW, if you always kept some measure of (from my perspective) sane distance from the rabid emotional sun-rises-and-sets-on-this-place mentality when you saw flaws it did not disillusion you.
...the problem then in relation to the above paragraph, which I obviously believe is accurate analysis, is that HAC was purposely designed to enchant/illusion you. The system of leadership from Bro. Hyles down to your bus captain was designed to hold up a man and a church and a college as the penultimate. Thus, it is no wonder that pound for pound HAC has turned out so many disenchanted people who now scream in frustration about how awful it was. It sought to illusion them and is now reaping what it sowed.
...the problem then in relation to the above paragraph, which I obviously believe is accurate analysis, is that HAC was purposely designed to enchant/illusion you. The system of leadership from Bro. Hyles down to your bus captain was designed to hold up a man and a church and a college as the penultimate. Thus, it is no wonder that pound for pound HAC has turned out so many disenchanted people who now scream in frustration about how awful it was. It sought to illusion them and is now reaping what it sowed.
There were those who attended HAC while coming from churches of another stripe, thus probably arriving with more depth. There were some who came from unchurched families, thus probably not so enamored with the leadership.
But some grew up in a similar IFB culture. They were taught to never question the man of God, that authority is always right, or to always side with authority. They grew up attending Pastor's School and Youth Conferences where these men were rock stars. They were not told to chew the meat and spit out the bones...they were told they were not smart enough.
These people were affected differently.
May I also suggest that the HAC that some of you attended was far more balanced than the one I attended.
Some attended before the KJV heresy was taught, while I as a freshman sat in class while Troy Blackwell taught that you couldn't get saved without a KJV and then told us if we disagreed we could meet him and fight.
Some attended when you were told to pick from a buffet, I attended when you couldn't buy a book from the bookstore that wasn't published by Hyles publications or the Sword of the Lord.
Just some thoughts.
But some grew up in a similar IFB culture. They were taught to never question the man of God, that authority is always right, or to always side with authority. They grew up attending Pastor's School and Youth Conferences where these men were rock stars. They were not told to chew the meat and spit out the bones...they were told they were not smart enough.
These people were affected differently.
May I also suggest that the HAC that some of you attended was far more balanced than the one I attended.
Some attended before the KJV heresy was taught, while I as a freshman sat in class while Troy Blackwell taught that you couldn't get saved without a KJV and then told us if we disagreed we could meet him and fight.
Some attended when you were told to pick from a buffet, I attended when you couldn't buy a book from the bookstore that wasn't published by Hyles publications or the Sword of the Lord.
Just some thoughts.
The question is not “did it harm usâ€, but “did it harm others we knowâ€.
For over 30 years I have watched young people from a dozen IFB churches go off to HAC, as young men & women, excited to make a difference for God & return questioning everything they had been taught growing up. I have seen them return hurt & disillusioned with everything IFB. When they return they no longer attend IFB churches. They come back questioning the Pastor, leaders, & parents & everything IFB. Some move to far more liberal churches & some stop attending all together. Many had been taught HAC is where you go to prepare to serve God & its leaders were the finest in the world. Why then do so many return having cast aside their desire & call to serve God. Why do so many others not return home at all.
Some of the things they site as causes for their change of view about being Fundamental Baptist:
Double standard between leaders & others
Lack of personal concern from faculty & staff
Unbiblical rules and standards
Lack of biblical example from leaders
The fall of so called IFB leaders
The emphasis on outward performance & lack of personal relationship with God
Poor academic standards & lack of effort by some teachers
Lazy leaders who expect others to do all the work
Leaders who do not practice what they preach
Man of God worship
Abuse from leaders (mental & physical)
Unreasonable expectations & lack of understanding
For over 30 years I have watched young people from a dozen IFB churches go off to HAC, as young men & women, excited to make a difference for God & return questioning everything they had been taught growing up. I have seen them return hurt & disillusioned with everything IFB. When they return they no longer attend IFB churches. They come back questioning the Pastor, leaders, & parents & everything IFB. Some move to far more liberal churches & some stop attending all together. Many had been taught HAC is where you go to prepare to serve God & its leaders were the finest in the world. Why then do so many return having cast aside their desire & call to serve God. Why do so many others not return home at all.
Some of the things they site as causes for their change of view about being Fundamental Baptist:
Double standard between leaders & others
Lack of personal concern from faculty & staff
Unbiblical rules and standards
Lack of biblical example from leaders
The fall of so called IFB leaders
The emphasis on outward performance & lack of personal relationship with God
Poor academic standards & lack of effort by some teachers
Lazy leaders who expect others to do all the work
Leaders who do not practice what they preach
Man of God worship
Abuse from leaders (mental & physical)
Unreasonable expectations & lack of understanding
RAIDER said:
The point was about being affected by the bad of the place not about graduating. My opinion is that if a person had a good foundation, they would be naturally less affected.
I am not okay with the buyer beware aspect of HAC that you seem to be fine with. I don't find that to be a Christ like position.
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God gave me a strong, clear call to HAC, which was actually a good college in its opening year. I wanted to learn to be a soul-winner, and I did. But I learned almost no Bible--they kept repeating the same few doctrines. I grew spiritually because of Jack Hyles' sermons (which were magnificent) but chapel sermons usually taught the same few things.
Yes, performance based Christianity always hurts people.
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Timotheus said:
It is not a "buyer beware" philosophy. HAC has made no secret of its standards and rules for students. It has not hidden its philosophy toward preaching and church building. If this is what you are after, go to HAC. If this is not what you are after, go somewhere else.
Should a student that wants to be a lawyer attend a medical school? If a student does, whose fault is it? I don't think it has anything with not being Christlike.
RAIDER said:
What many of us thought we were buying into was the greatest church and the opportunity to serve with the greatest Christians. What we actually bought was a results based Christianity and spirituality defined by keeping rules. You mentioned previously that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. From your posts I get the impression that you believe that FBCH/HAC had a firm foundation in spite of some crazies. I believe FBCH/HAC was built on a faulty foundation and that is the reason for so many shipwrecks. The fact that I gained good things from FBCH/HAC does not change the foundation it was built on is faulty.
The question becomes do you think some changes could get the ship back on track and it will be bigger and better than ever or should the whole thing be torn down and start completely over. I would fall in favor of tearing it down and starting over...the foundation is too bad to be able to fix the problems.
I did not mean to put words in your mouth or tell you what you think...it is just the way things appear to me when I read posts.
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I was an adult when I went to HAC and never bowed down to any man.
I loved Bro. Hyles but I also knew that he was but a man so I didn't buy into the whole "What Bro. Hyles says is gospel bit."
The Word of God, my preacher and others taught me to keep my eyes on Jesus, not man.
That is the entire reason that I have been able to keep my sanity throughout all of these years after HAC.
I have had preachers lie to me, get caught in scandals, I have seen several of my mentors & peers go off into sin, one committed suicide by overdose.
I have also seen a great mentor of mine go through a nasty divorce with terrible repercussions on his family.
Yet through it all, by the grace of God I am still serving the Lord and keeping my eye on Jesus.
No bitterness, I haven't quit being IFB, KJVO, soulwinning and separated.
In fact, I was all of that before I went.
HAC didn't harm me, but it did prepare me for the ministry in many ways.
It taught me how to work, how to love, how to organize, how to delegate, how to lead.
To not be afraid of sacrifice, and have a backbone.
There were jerks there, Hackers, works performance brown nosers, but I intentionally ignored them.
There were things that it could have done much better, such as homiletics, apologetics, hermeneutics, etc.
but overall, I'm glad I went and I definitely am not worse off for going.
I loved Bro. Hyles but I also knew that he was but a man so I didn't buy into the whole "What Bro. Hyles says is gospel bit."
The Word of God, my preacher and others taught me to keep my eyes on Jesus, not man.
That is the entire reason that I have been able to keep my sanity throughout all of these years after HAC.
I have had preachers lie to me, get caught in scandals, I have seen several of my mentors & peers go off into sin, one committed suicide by overdose.
I have also seen a great mentor of mine go through a nasty divorce with terrible repercussions on his family.
Yet through it all, by the grace of God I am still serving the Lord and keeping my eye on Jesus.
No bitterness, I haven't quit being IFB, KJVO, soulwinning and separated.
In fact, I was all of that before I went.
HAC didn't harm me, but it did prepare me for the ministry in many ways.
It taught me how to work, how to love, how to organize, how to delegate, how to lead.
To not be afraid of sacrifice, and have a backbone.
There were jerks there, Hackers, works performance brown nosers, but I intentionally ignored them.
There were things that it could have done much better, such as homiletics, apologetics, hermeneutics, etc.
but overall, I'm glad I went and I definitely am not worse off for going.
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LongGone said:
When you attended FBCH you were going to the greatest church of its kind. The numbers were emphasized and it was at the top. It was advertised as a place you would learn to build a church with the same beliefs and philosophies. There was a strong emphasis on rules. This was not hid. It was in the ads that HAC ran in Christian periodicals.
Yes, I believe HAC/FBCH had some firm foundations in many areas. In other areas (deeper Bible teaching at HAC, a few teachers that should not be teaching, etc) they lacked. They taught me many very valuable life lessons that I have used through the years in my Christian as well as business life. I attended HAC in the early '80s. We knew nothing of Dave Hyles or Joe Combs wickedness. There were no scandals going on of which we knew. When I say, "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water" I am referring to not casting off the good that I learned at HAC with that which I did not agree.
I was there the same time you were Raider, and I remember hearing whispers of Dave Hyles, but no one would talk about it. Combs was hailed as the greatest Bible teacher-and required New and Old Testament Survey. But to think what he was doing to that poor little girl while he had that smirk on his face teaching us from Weirsbe's---I mean his notes!!
RAIDER said:
They advertised as a Christian college. What part of Christianity do they get to ignore in your book and still be telling the truth?
So am I to assume by you its okay if they covered up sin (as long as you didn't know, things were good!). A student should just know when he goes into a place like HAC that he needs to keep a sharp eye out for the crazies and the wolves in sheep clothes. Obviously this is a Christian place! :
16KJV11 said:
That is what I am trying to say. How we view it is based on what we believe about the foundation. You view the foundation as good. You still build on that foundation. KJVO, using the term soul-winning instead of the Biblical term witnessing and separated (at least in the FBCH/HAC sense) are all what I see as part of the faulty foundation. I sometimes feel that because of the experience you had that you have no sense of the experience others had. We both can have the same basic experience and for any multitude of reasons see if very differently.
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Timotheus said:RAIDER said:
They advertised as a Christian college. What part of Christianity do they get to ignore in your book and still be telling the truth?
So am I to assume by you its okay if they covered up sin (as long as you didn't know, things were good!). A student should just know when he goes into a place like HAC that he needs to keep a sharp eye out for the crazies and the wolfs in sheep clothes. Obviously this is a Christian place! :
Absolutely not! What I am saying is that when I attended HAC none of the scandals were known to me. If I would have known about them I may have made a different decision. It is not ok that they covered up sin. I did not have to keep a sharp eye on the wolves in sheep's clothing because we did not think they were there. What Dave Hyles and Joe Combs did was wicked! There is no excuse for the Dave Hyles cover up. I attended HAC during a much more calm and simple time.
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RAIDER,
You are a HACker through and through. You are a JH apologist. You still adhere to the same philosophies taught to you by the "late, great, Jack Hyels" and all of his chronies. You still journey to Mecca - er - Hammond.
It is time to recognize that the system in FBCH / HAC is idolatry, not to mention lasciviousness, pride, anger, refusing the correction of God, blameshifting, manipulation, abuse, et. al. Does this hurt people? YES! YES! YES! YES! Why don't you talk to the girls and boys who were raped by the leadership team at FBCH / HAC if the system was a place that hurt people? Why don't you talk to the thousands of abuse victims (most of whom you don't know about) of HAC grads if they were hurt? What if we were to even ignore the abuse victims (because apparently you think rape doesn't really hurt people - you stinkin' moron). The Hyles dynasty were kings among the IFB world. Does that make them "good?" Does their evil outweigh their wickedness? Does the fact that they were kings make them righteous despite their actions? I tell you what. Why not look at the Bible to see what God thinks instead of mandating your opinion be correct for the whole world. Try reading Kings and Chronicles (They are books in the Old Testament of the Bible - Don't worry, they should be in your KJV, at least they are in mine). How did God treat the kings of the nation? Asa restored temple worship, but was rebuked for misappropriation of funds. Jehoram was killed for his adultery and idolatry. Amaziah was slain for idolatry. Uzziah was smitten to death with leprosy for his pride in worship of God. Get the idea?
Look, you grew up with a good foundation. You spent a short time at HAC and ignored some of heresy while you grew up. You left with good memories and shook your head at what you deemed silly. You were lied to about the abuse and crimes that were taking place. Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people.
God gives us in His inspired transcription of history the account of kings He killed for similar crimes of the Hyles dynasty. I don't see a need to defend the heretics.
You are a HACker through and through. You are a JH apologist. You still adhere to the same philosophies taught to you by the "late, great, Jack Hyels" and all of his chronies. You still journey to Mecca - er - Hammond.
It is time to recognize that the system in FBCH / HAC is idolatry, not to mention lasciviousness, pride, anger, refusing the correction of God, blameshifting, manipulation, abuse, et. al. Does this hurt people? YES! YES! YES! YES! Why don't you talk to the girls and boys who were raped by the leadership team at FBCH / HAC if the system was a place that hurt people? Why don't you talk to the thousands of abuse victims (most of whom you don't know about) of HAC grads if they were hurt? What if we were to even ignore the abuse victims (because apparently you think rape doesn't really hurt people - you stinkin' moron). The Hyles dynasty were kings among the IFB world. Does that make them "good?" Does their evil outweigh their wickedness? Does the fact that they were kings make them righteous despite their actions? I tell you what. Why not look at the Bible to see what God thinks instead of mandating your opinion be correct for the whole world. Try reading Kings and Chronicles (They are books in the Old Testament of the Bible - Don't worry, they should be in your KJV, at least they are in mine). How did God treat the kings of the nation? Asa restored temple worship, but was rebuked for misappropriation of funds. Jehoram was killed for his adultery and idolatry. Amaziah was slain for idolatry. Uzziah was smitten to death with leprosy for his pride in worship of God. Get the idea?
Look, you grew up with a good foundation. You spent a short time at HAC and ignored some of heresy while you grew up. You left with good memories and shook your head at what you deemed silly. You were lied to about the abuse and crimes that were taking place. Rather than accept that such sin was occurring, and recognize the error, you are claiming that such sin is not really relevant and has no impact on people.
God gives us in His inspired transcription of history the account of kings He killed for similar crimes of the Hyles dynasty. I don't see a need to defend the heretics.