Did it really harm us?

[Binaca Chugger]

Maybe if the thread had been titled "Did it harm you?" we wouldn't have this kind of argument as it would have been clear that each individual may have had a different experience.

Right you are. In the first few weeks of the opening year, Dr. Billings (who purchased his doctorate from a diploma mill) began ripping into the working students every few weeks. If your parents were paying your way, you were treated differently than the ones who had to work their way through.

Are you sure about that?  He worked in the Dep. of Ed. for President Reagan.  I don't believe they would have been okay with a diploma mill.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/06/01/us/robert-j-billings-is-dead-at-68-helped-form-the-moral-majority.html

Vince might be right.

Robert Billings, a former official of the Moral Majority who is now director of the regianal [sic] liaison office of the Department of Education (DOE) in Washington, is the author of the speech, mailed by a DOE regional director in Denver to six western states, which deplored the erosion of “Christian values” in American public schools, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency has learned

Billings, a former executive director of the Moral Majority, has been described as the “Christian Right’s inside man ” in the Reagan Administration, according to Congressional sources. These sources asserted that Billings, who identifies himself as a doctor, recieved [sic] his doctorate from a Tennessee correspondence school since shut-down by state officials after it was labeled a “diploma mill.” Billings could not be reached for comment.

http://www.jta.org/1985/01/24/archive/exclusive-to-the-jta-former-moral-majority-official-is-author-of-speech-deploring-erosion-of-christ

Original source of the above article:

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00010090/02922/6j


Secondary sources:

https://books.google.com/books?id=q-YDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT9&lpg=PT9&dq=robert+billings+diploma+mill&source=bl&ots=zuonQ-xgqV&sig=K4I1ZPWlGCBDHvmWIjf9NqxkAbU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wK3oVKKpNMqAygTljIG4Bw&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=robert%20billings%20diploma%20mill&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=VkdZyX5lsGwC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=robert+billings+diploma+mill&source=bl&ots=B-nLA2qefr&sig=xwWQwJoxfM6H2CUnXhs3LaIQ1-w&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wK3oVKKpNMqAygTljIG4Bw&ved=0CFYQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=robert%20billings%20diploma%20mill&f=false

So many layers of partial truths (lies) at HAC.

So who at HAC actual earned doctorates?

Dr. Evans
Dr. Cowling
?

Also it looks like President Reagan knew what to do with the trouble makers on the right - stick them in a bureaucratic position and never hear from them again! 

Correct.  And when they refuse to accept your peace,  when they refuse to repent of their wicked way, when they instead continue in the same path of idolatry and when they attack the peacemaker, we are to have no part with them.

I have no problem with warning others of the evil lest they be harmed.  I believe it my responsibility.

Thank you, Coffee.

Now, getting back to bitterness.

If the first servant in the parable had forgiven the second servant, the first servant would have been out 100 days' wages (That's a lot of money) that was owed him due to wrong-doing by the second servant. In other words, the first servant would have produced "hurt" by obeying God's command to forgive.

If you are suffering pain from a past wrong, it doesn't prove that you have not forgiven the person. But what can you do about it?

Hebrews 12:15 tells us "looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;" But look at the first half of the sentence, in the previous verse:

"Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:"  It is not enough to forgive your debtors; you need to seek peace with them.

 

[Norefund]

"I went knowing that Dave Hyles had sinned. Once there I heard the rumors about his time on staff there. I believe Bro. Hyles when he said he didn't know. I think Dave was smart enough to have an answer to every accusation.

I knew about the Sumner scandal a year before it broke. I read the article when it came out. It too made me sick like it did others, but it made me sick when I read it from the perspective of saying over and over to myself as I read it, "That's not true, I know that's not true." And then I would remember the things that made the accusations not true. I also got an up front look at the people who were accusing Jack Hyles of everything under the sun. I saw their wickedness and deceitfulness and thought why should I believe these people who attack my pastor. (If you want details I'll post the stories)"

I am a bit confused. The tense of your statement implies that you still believe Jack Hyles knew nothing of Dave Hyles wickedness. Do you still believe he didn't know? All of the Biblical Evangelist account is still untrue?

Also, please tell us the stories of the wickedness and deceitfulness of George Godfrey.

 

[Vince Massi]

Norefund, I'm not sure whom you're asking, but no one knows the answer.

How much did Jack know about Dave, and how long had he known it?

Because love covers a multitude of sins, Jack might have honestly not believed the stories. Plus, Dave was a highly-skilled liar who might well have outsmarted his dad.

Jack honestly believed that numbers are proof of the blessing of God, and Dave had the numbers. Granted, a lot of his numbers came from Godly HAC students, but Dave did run a successful operation while I was there.

We just don't know how much Jack knew and how long he knew it.

 

[bgwilkinson]

"I went knowing that Dave Hyles had sinned. Once there I heard the rumors about his time on staff there. I believe Bro. Hyles when he said he didn't know. I think Dave was smart enough to have an answer to every accusation.

I knew about the Sumner scandal a year before it broke. I read the article when it came out. It too made me sick like it did others, but it made me sick when I read it from the perspective of saying over and over to myself as I read it, "That's not true, I know that's not true." And then I would remember the things that made the accusations not true. I also got an up front look at the people who were accusing Jack Hyles of everything under the sun. I saw their wickedness and deceitfulness and thought why should I believe these people who attack my pastor. (If you want details I'll post the stories)"

I am a bit confused. The tense of your statement implies that you still believe Jack Hyles knew nothing of Dave Hyles wickedness. Do you still believe he didn't know? All of the Biblical Evangelist account is still untrue?

Also, please tell us the stories of the wickedness and deceitfulness of George Godfrey.

What scandal was centered around Robert Sumner? I have known him since 1961 when he was my pastor for a brief time. I have never heard anything that would show him to be anything but of the most sterling character.

I believe George Godfrey was calling out Bro. Hyles because Bro. Hyles would not remove the door between his and Jennie's office. I am unaware of anything immoral by Bro. Godfrey.

In one of our Saturday night meetings the Griffith Police chief, who was also an FBCH deacon, told of finding Dave and a girl in the back of a car naked in Griffith. He did not arrest him out of defferance to Bro. Hyles and to save FBCH embarrassment. Same can be said of Schererville police, and others that I have not mentioned.

Bill asked Bro. Hyles what he was going to do about Dave. Bro. Hyles said he would take care of it.
Bro. Hyles did know of many of these outings by Dave. He was told in the Sat. night meetings.

Shortly after that Dave got a call to Miller Road.

As for Dr. Evans he also knew about Dave and his daughter, though maybe not when he made the public denial.

 

[fishinnut]

In one of our Saturday night meetings the Griffith Police chief, who was also an FBCH deacon, told of finding Dave and a girl in the back of a car naked in Griffith. He did not arrest him out of defferance to Bro. Hyles and to save FBCH embarrassment. Same can be said of Schererville police, and others that I have not mentioned.

Bill asked Bro. Hyles what he was going to do about Dave. Bro. Hyles said he would take care of it.
Bro. Hyles did know of many of these outings by Dave. He was told in the Sat. night meetings.

Shortly after that Dave got a call to Miller Road.

As for Dr. Evans he also knew about Dave and his daughter, though maybe not when he made the denial.

Too bad some of the HAC grads at the church in TX who Davey-boy made into victims, those he seduced,
those who were taught at HAC to give total loyalty to the pastor are not on the HAC forum (as far as I know)
to answer the question of, "Did it really harm......?"

 

[Norefund]

I was quoting a part of Tennessean's post and asking if he still believes that Jack Hyles knew nothing of Dave Hyles wickedness. The suggestion of his post also implies that the 1989 scandal was all lies perpetrated by wicked and deceitful people so I asked him to give an example of the those attributes concerning George Godfrey.  His words were "the Sumner scandal" in reference (I think) to the Biblical Evangelist articles. Strange how it's the Sumner Scandal and not the Hyles or FBC scandal.

"I went knowing that Dave Hyles had sinned. Once there I heard the rumors about his time on staff there. I believe Bro. Hyles when he said he didn't know. I think Dave was smart enough to have an answer to every accusation.

I knew about the Sumner scandal a year before it broke. I read the article when it came out. It too made me sick like it did others, but it made me sick when I read it from the perspective of saying over and over to myself as I read it, "That's not true, I know that's not true." And then I would remember the things that made the accusations not true. I also got an up front look at the people who were accusing Jack Hyles of everything under the sun. I saw their wickedness and deceitfulness and thought why should I believe these people who attack my pastor. (If you want details I'll post the stories)"

I am a bit confused. The tense of your statement implies that you still believe Jack Hyles knew nothing of Dave Hyles wickedness. Do you still believe he didn't know? All of the Biblical Evangelist account is still untrue?

Also, please tell us the stories of the wickedness and deceitfulness of George Godfrey.

What scandal was centered around Robert Sumner? I have known him since 1961 when he was my pastor for a brief time. I have never heard anything that would show him to be anything but of the most sterling character.

I believe George Godfrey was calling out Bro. Hyles because Bro. Hyles would not remove the door between his and Jennies office. I am unaware of anything immoral by Bro. Godfrey.

In one of our Saturday night meetings the Griffith Police chief, who was also an FBCH deacon, told of finding Dave and a girl in the back of a car naked in Griffith. He did not arrest him out of defferance to Bro. Hyles and to save FBCH embarrassment. Same can be said of Schererville police, and others that I have not mentioned.

Bill asked Bro. Hyles what he was going to do about Dave. Bro. Hyles said he would take care of it.
Bro. Hyles did know of many of these outings by Dave. He was told in the Sat. night meetings.

Shortly after that Dave got a call to Miller Road.

As for Dr. Evans he also knew about Dave and his daughter, though maybe not when he made the denial.

 

[cast.sheep]

Regardless of our current level of criticism, did the time there really harm us?

What say ye, Hacker Nation?

Yes. More than most even realize.

 

[bgwilkinson]

I was quoting a part of Tennessean's post and asking if he still believes that Jack Hyles knew nothing of Dave Hyles wickedness. The suggestion of his post also implies that the 1989 scandal was all lies perpetrated by wicked and deceitful people so I asked him to give an example of the those attributes concerning George Godfrey.  His words were "the Sumner scandal" in reference (I think) to the Biblical Evangelist articles. Strange how it's the Sumner Scandal and not the Hyles or FBC scandal.

"I went knowing that Dave Hyles had sinned. Once there I heard the rumors about his time on staff there. I believe Bro. Hyles when he said he didn't know. I think Dave was smart enough to have an answer to every accusation.

I knew about the Sumner scandal a year before it broke. I read the article when it came out. It too made me sick like it did others, but it made me sick when I read it from the perspective of saying over and over to myself as I read it, "That's not true, I know that's not true." And then I would remember the things that made the accusations not true. I also got an up front look at the people who were accusing Jack Hyles of everything under the sun. I saw their wickedness and deceitfulness and thought why should I believe these people who attack my pastor. (If you want details I'll post the stories)"

I am a bit confused. The tense of your statement implies that you still believe Jack Hyles knew nothing of Dave Hyles wickedness. Do you still believe he didn't know? All of the Biblical Evangelist account is still untrue?

Also, please tell us the stories of the wickedness and deceitfulness of George Godfrey.

What scandal was centered around Robert Sumner? I have known him since 1961 when he was my pastor for a brief time. I have never heard anything that would show him to be anything but of the most sterling character.

I believe George Godfrey was calling out Bro. Hyles because Bro. Hyles would not remove the door between his and Jennies office. I am unaware of anything immoral by Bro. Godfrey.

In one of our Saturday night meetings the Griffith Police chief, who was also an FBCH deacon, told of finding Dave and a girl in the back of a car naked in Griffith. He did not arrest him out of defferance to Bro. Hyles and to save FBCH embarrassment. Same can be said of Schererville police, and others that I have not mentioned.

Bill asked Bro. Hyles what he was going to do about Dave. Bro. Hyles said he would take care of it.
Bro. Hyles did know of many of these outings by Dave. He was told in the Sat. night meetings.

Shortly after that Dave got a call to Miller Road.

As for Dr. Evans he also knew about Dave and his daughter, though maybe not when he made the denial.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I confess I have not read all of the posts in this thread, I guess I missed that.

When I first read the Biblical Evangelist articles I did not want to believe them either, but so much that was in them was undeniably true. My high view of Robert Sumner's character also contributed much to the narrative. Much of the article quoted the letters that Bro. Hyles sent defending himself, in those he testified against his interests. In the Jenny N. depositions he also spoke against his interests. Those depositions are still on file at the Lake County court house and are open to anyone that wants to take the time to read them. You will know after you read them. They read the same today as they did at the time of the divorce. They are original sources with testimony from all those involved. Bro. Hyles did not testify as a pastor and confidant and counselor of Vic, he testified as an adversary.

 

[Mathew Ward]

You should ask Joy Evans Ryder if Jack Hyles knew about Dave Hyles.

I am approaching this thread from the angle of a young person attending HAC for four years and graduating.  Regardless of our current level of criticism, did the time there really harm us?  Did it lessen our walk with Christ?  Did it make us a bad testimony?  Did it instill in us heresy?  Did we leave HAC with a closer walk with God or further from Him?

What say ye, Hacker Nation?

It's been something to read some of these posts. I've watched the FFF for several years now and it seems no matter what thread Raider or anyone else tries to start, there is a group of people who will cause every thread to degenerate into the same old, "HAC was bad, corrupt, uh I'm bitter, etc." Some of it might be warranted for some people. I think the people who lived in their own private homes have no reason to gripe. You could have made a change if you wanted to.

Now to answer the original question about this thread. My time at HAC did not hurt me. Not mentally, physically nor professionally. I went to HAC because I felt the Lord leading me to do so. I admired Jack Hyles and wanted to be a preacher like he was and wanted to pastor a church like he did. Since leaving HAC, the college has helped me as much as any other college would have under the same circumstances.

When I went there I did not know all the rules, or how stupid sounding some of them were. For example, I did not like to have to turn my recorded music in to get it approved, I did not like it that the dining hall was virtually closed on weekends, I did not like having my hair length scrutinized, but I accepted it and I stayed.

I went knowing that Dave Hyles had sinned. Once there I heard the rumors about his time on staff there. I believe Bro. Hyles when he said he didn't know. I think Dave was smart enough to have an answer to every accusation.

I knew about the Sumner scandal a year before it broke. I read the article when it came out. It too made me sick like it did others, but it made me sick when I read it from the perspective of saying over and over to myself as I read it, "That's not true, I know that's not true." And then I would remember the things that made the accusations not true. I also got an up front look at the people who were accusing Jack Hyles of everything under the sun. I saw their wickedness and deceitfulness and thought why should I believe these people who attack my pastor. (If you want details I'll post the stories)

All this happened while I was there. So here's the bottom line. I went to HAC loving the Lord, I left HAC loving the Lord. I loved the Bible when I went there, I believe I love and cherish the Bible more the day I left there. While there I received the blessed assurance of my salvation. While there I was taught the truths of the Bible. While there I learned to love people. While there I was taught the importance of having a personal walk with the Lord. Now that I pastor I know the importance of having a daily walk with the Lord. Was I happy with everything I saw? No. But if I didn't like it could have left. I had the opportunity.

To those whose experience at HAC was not like mine, I'm sorry.

Remember knowing things like this was not the point of Raiders post. I responded to what Raider asked.

But perhaps you did not hear the official public quote made by Dr. Wendell Evans after the initial charge was made concerning David and his daughter. He said, "That is a wicked vile lie."

Now knowing nothing else in the early 1980's you would find Wendell Evans a credible spokesman for his family and daughter. I realize that Joy has come forward with a different story. I do support her campaign to eliminate statute of limitation laws in IN regarding sexual abuse.

You mean that a follower of Jack Hyles would lie for the namesake of Jack Hyles and for the sake of the ministry? Knowingly that it would damage his family, that sounds like the blind loyalty that Hyles taught. The philosophy of ministry first, that bigger is better. That is the reason why Dave couldn't be exposed, the ministry would be hurt and that the numbers would go down. So sacrifice your daughter for cause of Christ or the kingdom of Hyles.

I wonder if all the families since First Baptist Church that were destroyed by Dave Hyles were damaged by the Hyles/HAC philosophy?

You mean the damage to families caused by David Hyles all could have been prevented if Jack Hyles would have actually used church discipline the first time.

Say it ain't so.

 

[BALAAM]

You know, DH has written a book about JH passion for Sunday School. Boob Gray says they wrote it together and it has wonderful material. (good spot for a plug here)

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I've watched the FFF for several years now and it seems no matter what thread Raider or anyone else tries to start, there is a group of people who will cause every thread to degenerate into the same old, "HAC was bad, corrupt, uh I'm bitter, etc." Some of it might be warranted for some people. I think the people who lived in their own private homes have no reason to gripe. You could have made a change if you wanted to.

When someone starts a thread which insinuates no one was really harmed at or by HAC, I sure will speak out in rebuttle about how "HAC was bad, corrupt, etc."  When someone insinuates that rape, molestation, physical and verbal abuse never really harmed anyone - I will speak up.  When someone insinuates that pride, lasciviousness and hypocrisy never really harmed anyone - I will speak up.  When someone insinuates that idolatry never really harmed anyone - I will speak up.

I challenge you to consider your training and examine your current methods.  If you are practicing what you were taught at HAC, and that system was corrupt idolatry......  I happen to believe that every student who attended HAC was indirectly harmed by the heresy which was the system.

 

[IFB X-Files]

I happen to believe that every student who attended HAC was indirectly harmed by the heresy which was the system.

You earthlings are big into litigation.  How about a class-action lawsuit?

 

[Holy Mole]

What about the tens or hundreds of thousands of false professions gotten by ministry workers for notches on their NT or a number on a report. This type of numberism was promoted from the highest level and the most unethical of practices and motivations were also taught and/or tolerated because it worked!

My question....what about those souls?

Are they living under false assurances?

or do they simply think it is a big joke having done this and been baptized multiple times to please an overzealous and mismotivated worker?

Some see a great building in Hammond and a bronze statue in Crown Point but I can't help but to see miles of scorched earth surrounding all of it.

 

[Sherryh]

I didn't idolize people so I knew when to use discernment which is missing in our homes/churches. I never cared for Mr Combs I really thought he was strange. Mr Laurent only ask us to write letters and get involved in change. He loved us and really cared about people.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

I didn't idolize people so I knew when to use discernment which is missing in our homes/churches. I never cared for Mr Combs I really thought he was strange. Mr Laurent only ask us to write letters and get involved in change. He loved us and really cared about people.

I will absolutely agree that some of the people of FBCH / HAC were kind, caring folk who wanted to help point others to Christ who would in turn point others to Christ.  I can understand someone attending only four years, being only around those folk and leaving with a pretty good attitude about the place.

However, after careful examination, can you really say that the heresy and practices of the place never became your own?  And, if it did, didn't that harm you?

 

[bgwilkinson]

What about the tens or hundreds of thousands of false professions gotten by ministry workers for notches on their NT or a number on a report. This type of numberism was promoted from the highest level and the most unethical of practices and motivations were also taught and/or tolerated because it worked!

My question....what about those souls?

Are they living under false assurances?

During the 90s, when Bro. Hyles was frantically trying to regain his slipping following, I had high-schoolers in my SS class that did not understand salvation but claimed they were saved based on a prayer they prayed at the front of the auditorium. They could not tell me what was the basis of their profession. I carefully gave them the gospel several times, but to this day they were unable to give a clear testimony of salvation by grace through faith. I cared very much for the souls of those young men. I was appalled at the miserable numbers based industrial assembly line soul winning methods. Some of these young men thought they were saved because a personal worker told them they were, they had a false profession and a false assurance. They joined the church several times by a false baptism.

or do they simply think it is a big joke having done this and been baptized multiple times to please an overzealous and mismotivated worker?

Some see a great building in Hammond and a bronze statue in Crown Point but I can't help but to see miles of scorched earth surrounding all of it.

Yes some in my class thought it was a big joke. They came for the goodies and not for salvation.

We have a burned over area around Hammond as in Finney's day. It is not unusual to be told "yah, I already did that", but there is no evidence of salvation. I believe we have sent many of these people to hell because of our ungodly methods.

So it would seem that those eternally harmed were the false converts who thought they were saved, but are not.

 

[LongGone]

I've watched the FFF for several years now and it seems no matter what thread Raider or anyone else tries to start, there is a group of people who will cause every thread to degenerate into the same old, "HAC was bad, corrupt, uh I'm bitter, etc." Some of it might be warranted for some people. I think the people who lived in their own private homes have no reason to gripe. You could have made a change if you wanted to.

When someone starts a thread which insinuates no one was really harmed at or by HAC, I sure will speak out in rebuttle about how "HAC was bad, corrupt, etc."  When someone insinuates that rape, molestation, physical and verbal abuse never really harmed anyone - I will speak up.  When someone insinuates that pride, lasciviousness and hypocrisy never really harmed anyone - I will speak up.  When someone insinuates that idolatry never really harmed anyone - I will speak up.

I challenge you to consider your training and examine your current methods.  If you are practicing what you were taught at HAC, and that system was corrupt idolatry......  I happen to believe that every student who attended HAC was indirectly harmed by the heresy which was the system.

I know I am being redundant but these discussions will always be divided by people who think it was a good place where some bad things happen vs a basically a corrupt place where you learned some good things.

 

[Bruh]

What about the tens or hundreds of thousands of false professions gotten by ministry workers for notches on their NT or a number on a report. This type of numberism was promoted from the highest level and the most unethical of practices and motivations were also taught and/or tolerated because it worked!

My question....what about those souls?

Are they living under false assurances?

or do they simply think it is a big joke having done this and been baptized multiple times to please an overzealous and mismotivated worker?

Some see a great building in Hammond and a bronze statue in Crown Point but I can't help but to see miles of scorched earth surrounding all of it.

One of my biggest issues with that place. Talk to a 100% 'er and they just look at you like you a just critical or bitter about something or they say, I'm to busy in my own ministry to worry about someone elses ministry but they will still support there missionaries and so on and so forth.

It's really pathetic.

 

[SwampHag]

If nothing else, HAC harmed us in the fact we have forgotten who the enemy is and it's not each other.  Lots of side taking went on up there....

The enemy is Satan, and the sooner Christians stop shooting at each other and start shooting at him, the sooner we can start making a real difference in this world.

JS is in jail.  He belongs there.  IMO, leave him there and move on to the job at hand of reaching the lost.

 

[Bruh]

If nothing else, HAC harmed us in the fact we have forgotten who the enemy is and it's not each other.  Lots of side taking went on up there....

The enemy is Satan, and the sooner Christians stop shooting at each other and start shooting at him, the sooner we can start making a real difference in this world.

JS is in jail.  He belongs there.  IMO, leave him there and move on to the job at hand of reaching the lost.

That's fine but the enemy is the false gospel they continue to promote, shouldn't someone speak out about this?