Dealing with divorce.

[prophet]

It would be prudent to give time for the Holy Spirit to work on their hearts.  There is a reason they are in church and time will tell if they are just there to attend without any further commitment, or if they desire to grow and serve.  If they desire to start serving the Lord, they will probably want to talk with the Pastor about their past.  Repentance and restoration are so wondrous when they are brought forth by conviction from the Holy Spirit.

Well, you just take all the fightin' fun out of a thread now don't ya.


Excellent answer.


But just to try to flesh out the "repentance and restoration" aspect of your great answer, what if the guilty party claimed that they were repentant but you knew that they hadn't attempted to ask forgiveness for their wrongs done to the former spouse, and/or they weren't trying to provide care/support for their children?

Give them some directives, see how they handle being told by the church to do some things, like provide for their offspring.  If they recieve instruction/requirements meekly, and go about making restitution...then restore their fellowship.  This is to be done in the spirit of meekness, on the church's part as well.
  Any resistance to the church, will indicate an attitude of resistance to God, and show that the adultery is still in their heart.  Adultery is supposed to be taken seriously by the church, and it would be foolish to ignore it.  This is where the spiritual are supposed to judge.

  The good news is that they returned to the church that they left, showing a desire to right wrongs. 

Anishinabe

 

[christundivided]

But just to try to flesh out the "repentance and restoration" aspect of your great answer, what if the guilty party claimed that they were repentant but you knew that they hadn't attempted to ask forgiveness for their wrongs done to the former spouse, and/or they weren't trying to provide care/support for their children?

There is always two sides to any story. When the situation has ended in divorce of the couple, I don't see any reason to revisit the details of said divorce. A divorce is final and doesn't require "I'm sorry" from either party after the fact.

In such an instance, I see no reason not to accept them into fellowship, but I certainly wouldn't expect them serve the church in any capacity until they have prove that God is still actively working in their lives. If God is working in their lives, then what does the church have to say about anything?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=prophet]Any resistance to the church, will indicate an attitude of resistance to God...[/quote]

And if the church just happens to be a legalistic wash of humanity whose is more worried about scrubbing the outside of the cup then cleaning the inside?

 

[graceandtruth]

[quote author=prophet]Any resistance to the church, will indicate an attitude of resistance to God...

And if the church just happens to be a legalistic wash of humanity whose is more worried about scrubbing the outside of the cup then cleaning the inside?
[/quote]

What if we assume the church is a group of people who are biblically seeking to exercise love and responsibility towards God and their neighbor?  Now keep in mind that this church may be imperfect like all of the churches that we see in Scripture.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=prophet]Any resistance to the church, will indicate an attitude of resistance to God...

And if the church just happens to be a legalistic wash of humanity whose is more worried about scrubbing the outside of the cup then cleaning the inside?

What if we assume the church is a group of people who are biblically seeking to exercise love and responsibility towards God and their neighbor?  Now keep in mind that this church may be imperfect like all of the churches that we see in Scripture.[/quote]

That may absolutely be true to be make the statement that any resistance to the church indicates a resistance to God puts the church in place of God, a place she clearly doesn't belong.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I say hire a private investigator to find out everything you can about their personal life and the divorce.  If that doesn't turn anything up, then waterboard them until they confess all the details.  Then keep a watchful eye on them until you're absolutely sure they continue to behave as righteous as you do, which is the only way you'll know they're under the power of the Holy Spirit.  Then, and only then, should you consider accepting them into fellowship. 

 

[graceandtruth]

[quote author=prophet]Any resistance to the church, will indicate an attitude of resistance to God...

And if the church just happens to be a legalistic wash of humanity whose is more worried about scrubbing the outside of the cup then cleaning the inside?

What if we assume the church is a group of people who are biblically seeking to exercise love and responsibility towards God and their neighbor?  Now keep in mind that this church may be imperfect like all of the churches that we see in Scripture.

That may absolutely be true to be make the statement that any resistance to the church indicates a resistance to God puts the church in place of God, a place she clearly doesn't belong.
[/quote]

I think we have to be careful to keep things in perspective.  It is clear that God operates through the churches in the lives of people since He describes churches as the body of Christ.  We must be careful to ensure that as churches we operate biblically as the body of Christ.  For instance Christ did not see every disagreement with Him as grounds to excommunicate and declare people heretics.  He actually saw most of these as opportunities to teach and instruct them and so should churches.  By the same token Jesus did not congratulate and declare mature those who disagreed with Him as we seem to do with those who disagree with churches.  Without the proper perspective we will miss the opportunity for God to work in our lives through His churches.

 

[subllibrm]

I say hire a private investigator to find out everything you can about their personal life and the divorce.  If that doesn't turn anything up, then waterboard them until they confess all the details.  Then keep a watchful eye on them until you're absolutely sure they continue to behave as righteous as you do, which is the only way you'll know they're under the power of the Holy Spirit.  Then, and only then, should you consider accepting them into fellowship.

And get video! You can't forget the video.  That gives the church the power it needs to keep them toeing the line. 8)

 

[subllibrm]

A family who are church members leave your church, backslide and live immorally for a long period of time.  This sort of lifestyle is by and large a pattern for their adult life, though they profess to be saved.  They end up getting divorced.  Years go by and one of the members comes back to your church, married to somebody else.  If they want to become members, do you do anything to determine the circumstances of the divorce, or welcome them as new members no questions asked?

And you let them in the building?!?!?!? What kind of fundy are you? 

 

[Smellin Coffee]

If the church has knowledge of the divorce, and that it was not for Biblically justifiable reasons, then it seems warranted to make sure that they are at least aware of the Biblical expectations for marriage, and that repentance for the grievous wrong has taken place.  I don't think it would be improper to see that the one who was guilty of the improper actions in the divorce make some sort of effort (if they have not already done so) to seek forgiveness for their wrongs.  And if child support issues were in view that should also be dealt with to make sure that Biblically the individual is shouldering their proper care for the children.

" Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

 

[Mathew Ward]

You are right I did not.  But your original question about the folks for membership was answered.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Could you clarify?

  Before we rush into all of these what if's I figured it would be best to turn them back to you. Now if you believe that all divorces that lack Biblical warrant are immoral, do you plan to interview any couple that has divorce in their background and discipline them?

If the church has knowledge of the divorce, and that it was not for Biblically justifiable reasons, then it seems warranted to make sure that they are at least aware of the Biblical expectations for marriage, and that repentance for the grievous wrong has taken place.  I don't think it would be improper to see that the one who was guilty of the improper actions in the divorce make some sort of effort (if they have not already done so) to seek forgiveness for their wrongs.  And if child support issues were in view that should also be dealt with to make sure that Biblically the individual is shouldering their proper care for the children.

The folks who divorce, but not for Biblically justifiable reasons and remarry are they committing adultery? If you conclude they are, will you not let them attend or be members?

 

[ALAYMAN]

There is always two sides to any story.

I understand that, but assume for the sake of argument that you have a solid basis of knowing that child support isn't being paid (and the louse is not financially destitute).

When the situation has ended in divorce of the couple, I don't see any reason to revisit the details of said divorce. A divorce is final and doesn't require "I'm sorry" from either party after the fact.

Live peaceably with all men, leave thy gift at the altar, and a host of other relevant Scriptures might easily be applied.

In such an instance, I see no reason not to accept them into fellowship, but I certainly wouldn't expect them serve the church in any capacity until they have prove that God is still actively working in their lives. If God is working in their lives, then what does the church have to say about anything?

Well, the church has spiritual responsibility to see that a person is growing, particularly the pastor.  It also has the responsibility to make sure that known sin is not flaunted.  But I agree with you that God certainly may use them, and that divorce is not a reason for a "second-class" status.

And you let them in the building?!?!?!? What kind of fundy are you?

Well, I had my fundy card revoked last year for going to the beach AND an ocean cruise on a non-Christian chartered boat, so I'm doing some penance and trying to get back into the Xers good graces.

" Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

So you don't believe that church discipline ought to be exercised in ANY situation involving known unrepentant immorality?

The folks who divorce, but not for Biblically justifiable reasons and remarry are they committing adultery? If you conclude they are, will you not let them attend or be members?

Long story short, if they have repented of the sin and reasonably attempted to make things right with the folk they sinned against then I wouldn't have any problem with them rejoining membership.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

" Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

So you don't believe that church discipline ought to be exercised in ANY situation involving known unrepentant immorality?

At what point would you kick Gentiles or tax collectors out?

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

 

[ALAYMAN]

At what point would you kick Gentiles or tax collectors out?

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

You didn't answer my question.  Do you believe discipline is EVER appropriate?

And just so we're on the same page, church discipline is not synonymous with merely "kicking them out".  It begins with private confrontation and counseling for the sin among the parties involved, and proceeds from there if necessary.  I'm pretty sure you know how it is supposed to work per the Matt 18 model (Jesus' model).  Kicking them out is not the goal, but rather repentance, restoration, and reconciliation.

According to that paradigm, should church members EVER exercise discipline at ANY level?

 

[Castor Muscular]

According to that paradigm, should church members EVER exercise discipline at ANY level?

Wow, you're obsessed with discipline.  I bet you have a black leather outfit with spikes and ball gag for those private moments when you can really enjoy it. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

According to that paradigm, should church members EVER exercise discipline at ANY level?

Wow, you're obsessed with discipline.  I bet you have a black leather outfit with spikes and ball gag for those private moments when you can really enjoy it.

It is noted by many reformers that church discipline is one of the identifying marks of a true NT church.  I know you don't care about church, else you'd quit making excuses and be obedient to Christ and join His body, so I don't expect you to understand. 

Now move along, the adults are trying to talk.

 

[subllibrm]

You think it's messy now, wait a few years when the broken homes we deal with will be from same sex "marriages" and the church will have to sort out an even bigger tangle of sin and shame. Good thing God is bigger than all of that.

 

[ALAYMAN]

You think it's messy now, wait a few years when the broken homes we deal with will be from same sex "marriages" and the church will have to sort out an even bigger tangle of sin and shame. Good thing God is bigger than all of that.

Speaking of that, here's a good article for light reading.

 

[FreeToBeMe]

The only mistake made was the previously divorced member coming back to your "church" expecting to be welcome.

 

[rsc2a]

There is always two sides to any story.

I understand that, but assume for the sake of argument that you have a solid basis of knowing that child support isn't being paid (and the louse is not financially destitute).

"There is always two sides to any story."