I think "real" in Ekk's reply is the key word.
David Baker arrested
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AogG do get a little loose with the so-called sign gifts but I wouldn't call them full on Pentecostal.. charismatic, yes... I have had some of the sweetest most genuine fellowship with AGs. When they start getting a little goofy I quietly excuse myself.
Even Calvary Chapel is considered charismatic but you'll rarely if ever witness the "sign gifts" practiced at a CC.
TBH, I didn’t know there was a difference. I thought the terms were interchangeable. My background is strictly Baptist with some Catholic schooling mixed in.
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The AG was founded in 1914. They're the original nation-wide Pentecostal denomination (easier associations were regional in scope). The neo-Pentecostal movement that we call the Charismatic movement has its origins in the 60s.
There's probably a bit of latitude in what individual AG congregations teach, of course. The first time I attended a Pentecostal service (in a Pente postal Assemblies of Canada church, our equivalent to the AG), I thought it no different from the Baptist services I grew up attending, apart from the guitars and drums instead of organ. I've since been to PAOC churches that were considerably more Charismatic albeit considerably less so than the independent ones or, say, the Vineyard or Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.
Incidentally, in my experience, old-school Pentecostals are frequently the harshest critics of modern Charismatics. They at least have biblical and doctrinal standards to tell them when to put the brakes on and avoid the neo-Pentecostals' worst excesses.
There's probably a bit of latitude in what individual AG congregations teach, of course. The first time I attended a Pentecostal service (in a Pente postal Assemblies of Canada church, our equivalent to the AG), I thought it no different from the Baptist services I grew up attending, apart from the guitars and drums instead of organ. I've since been to PAOC churches that were considerably more Charismatic albeit considerably less so than the independent ones or, say, the Vineyard or Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship.
Incidentally, in my experience, old-school Pentecostals are frequently the harshest critics of modern Charismatics. They at least have biblical and doctrinal standards to tell them when to put the brakes on and avoid the neo-Pentecostals' worst excesses.
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He means "REAL" as in actual. He is saying that it is all fake. I disagree. I think that occasionally, there are faithful pentecostal churches that do see real healings and real prophecy and real tongues. Sam Storms is a faithful, godly man, who believes in and preaches that all of the gifts are active. He's retired from the pastorate now, but when he was in it, he practiced it al biblically. I know he was not in the AOG, but a more Calvinistic group of Charismatics. But you can't accuse him of faking anything.
And he is a genuine scolar. He was president of the Evangelical Theological Society, no laughing matter.
In a nutshell, I guess what you’re indicating is there can be charismatics in multiple denominations.
Given your background, I’m a little surprised that you believe in the tongue speaking, faith healings, etc. I was thinking you had attended an IFB college and been an IFB pastor. Do these church practices exist in IFB as well? They definitely don’t in the Bob Jones affiliated church I grew up in, but maybe they do in some others.
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Off the top of my head, I know of one Brethren chapel and a mainstream Baptist church that went Charismatic in the 90s thanks to the Toronto blessing. The Charismatic movement actually began in the 60s in the Episcopal Church before spreading out to other denoms like the Lutherans and the Catholics. So yeah, a wide variety of denominations; not even the mainline churches are immune. Of course the Pentecostals have it baked right into their fundamentals.
I was kind of hoping to listen to the preaching to see what's being taught, but it takes time.
Out of curiosity and a chance to learn, how would you determine if "there was any little tiny bit of real spiritual life" based upon what you heard?
It's funny... shortly after I wrote that I was listening to some conference where a couple of messages were devoted to "soul-winning" - one praised Jack Hyles and Carl Hatch and said that because these "great" men were no longer around, IFB churches have not been as "hot" on "soul-winning" as they used to be. That same message beat up people for not winning enough souls.
A second message presented Hyles' method for winning souls.
So, yes, Hyles is still influencing people and movements.
I was kind of sad to hear the messages as I had hoped that these kind of "incantation soul-winning" (say this magic spell and you are saved) was recognized for what it was and dying out.
That is true, at least from what I have experienced.
Back in the 80's, I was involved in the Charismatic Movement.
We met in the bottom of Catholic churches, but there were a plethora of church backgrounds involved in the meetings.
One example of the last time I heard Bob Gray, probably 2006. He reads a text, does not represent the essence of that text in his preaching (bad exegesis. I'd even say misrepresenting the Bible), but uses it to promote. literally, "every person here to committ to winning one soul and bringing them to church this weekend," And then the long drawn out invitation. It was all emotional manipulation. If there was any spiritual vitality, it was hidden.
In the '70s, some Christians called themselves "Jesus Freaks". There was even a Bible cover with psychedelic colors. I think it was called "The Way" or something like that. I should know because I carried it to my public high school a couple of times. I also attended a Friday night church service that had several young people of every denomination, long haired hippie people, and girls in pants - you know all those outward signs of apostasy...lol. The charismatic movement was alive and well in the 1970s. It wasn't all bad. It was great to hear about Jesus' love for us and to hear songs like, "Come to the Water". It brings back good memories.
Come to the Water
There was a genuine revival in all of that. Being involved with Calvary Chapel for most of the past 25 years, I have become very familiar with the whole "Jesus People" movement. I got involved with CC in 2001 after being away from the IFB for the past dozen years or so. I came out of IFB into a "MacArthur-esque" body of churches when I got out of the Navy and moved to California. After leaving California, I found myself in a liberal congregation for about a year and wanted to return to my IFB roots. I went to a CC and was blown away at how similar to IFB they were but much better balanced. I cannot imagine myself attending a church that doesn't make expository teaching of the Word a priority.
Each chapter of my church experience had a positive influence on my walk of faith.
Expository Preaching, in my opinion, is the key to the beginning of a healthy church. When the people begin to learn how to read the Bible and apply it themselves. And when there are smaller groups of people meeting to minister the word to each other in the spirit of Hebrews 10:24-25, in my humble opinion, that church is coming alive. Without regular, clear exposition of Scripture by competent men, people will serach for gimmicks to see church growth.
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
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That's it!! That's perfect.This one?
Don't know about psychedelic colours. The models aren't even proper hippies. (This is the edition my dad still has on his bookshelf.)
Yes, psychedelic colors....see the edge of the guys shirt! LOL.
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I've got a copy of this out in my garage;This one?
Don't know about psychedelic colours. The models aren't even proper hippies. (This is the edition my dad still has on his bookshelf.)
I've got a copy of this propping up my monitor in my office.