Christian Attire - The 90% Rule

illinoisguy said:
But is this the best way to approach the problem? Christ in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:28-29) placed the responsibility on the men to accept the blame and deal with their problem. There is no record of Christ telling the ladies to "cover up." For Him to propose a 90% rule for body coverage probably would not have done much good, in a society where probably almost all women were already covered up in long, loose-fitting robes, but the men were lusting after them anyway.
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You are right that the Lord didn't have to tell the women how to dress. He was preaching mainly to Jews who had instructions from the law about what nakedness is.
The Bible speaks much about nakedness in the OT.. Much of it is about the nakedness of men, but I would imagine if something was naked on a man, so it would be naked on a woman as well.
 
I agree some dress codes can become legalistic but Proverbs 7:10-21 talks about a woman being dressed as a harlot for the purpose of seducing men. On the day of judgment men will be responsible for lusting after women but women will also be judged for dressing in a way as to cause men to lust after them. Its a two way street. My grandmother was born in 1883 and wore dresses down to her ankles til the day she died. Put some modern women in a time capsule back when she was a young woman and they would be thrown in jail. I started first grade in 1959 and girls were required to wear dresses to a public school but in the winter time they were allowed to wear a pair of pants underneath their dresses to stay warm. Culture changes along with clothing but it takes discernment to change with the times without being immodest or legalist.
 
biscuit1953 said:
I agree some dress codes can become legalistic but Proverbs 7:10-21 talks about a woman being dressed as a harlot for the purpose of seducing men.
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And how did the harlots dress back in the day?

Hint: There's a reason Judah didn't recognize his own daughter-in-law.
 
Starlifter said:
What is "modest apparel?"
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It's what Paul contrasts with "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim. 2:9).

In other words, the kind of immodesty Paul was being critical of wasn't showing off too much skin, but too much money.
 
Ransom said:
And how did the harlots dress back in the day?

Hint: There's a reason Judah didn't recognize his own daughter-in-law.
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When Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart was asked to describe his test for obscenity in 1964, he responded: "I know it when I see it." How are prostitutes dressed today? Would John MacArthur or any other pastor allow women singing in the choir in a bikini?
 
all i can say is... here we go again........ didn;t we discuss and argue this issue enough in the past here?..... were there not enough friendships severed and damaged beyond repair back then so that we have to re-visit it all now?......

fine .... keep it going... i;ll play along..... .. (i guess you need something to focus on and distract you from what;s about to happen to our country if we lose the next election)....

one of the biggest problems fundamentalists have where this issue is concerned.... is being unable to separate what are truly biblical principles and instructions given in scripture - from what are simply the customs and manners prevalent in their own midwest/southern and highly gentrified cultures.... ..

of course fundamentalists have that same problem with many biblical issues and doctrines.. .. but none seem to cause them more mental stress and discomfort than this one...... and where i;m concerned they are fine and even respectful discussing all kinds of scriptural and moral issues with me that we might disagree on until they realize once again that the way i dress does not conform to their american heartland white bread values... .... then they get absolutely nasty ... they go off the deep end on me saying things about me and others in hawaii like me that would curl their toe nails and set their hair on fire if the situation was reversed and i made such observations about them on other issues.... ..

and i;m sorry guys.. but since you condemn and laugh at anyone trying to imagine that the principles Jesus applied to one section or verse of scripture dealing with one specific issue ..might also apply to other issues of scripture He did not address ... you don;t get to use your imaginations on this one.........
 
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Ransom said:
It's what Paul contrasts with "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim. 2:9).

In other words, the kind of immodesty Paul was being critical of wasn't showing off too much skin, but too much money.
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exactly..... applying modern definitions to words that appeared in print 500 years ago..while ignoring what those words meant back then... is always a mistake - no matter what the issue is.... ...... .. but point that out to most fundamentalists when they misuse the word "modesty" as it appears in scripture to support their own personal likes.. dislikes .. and ideas..... and they have an apoplexy.... .... but only briefly..... . within a short amount of time they go right back to misapplying that and other words from the bible again as if they never heard anything to the contrary...... .
 
Ransom said:
It's what Paul contrasts with "broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim. 2:9).

In other words, the kind of immodesty Paul was being critical of wasn't showing off too much skin, but too much money.
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I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, and I'm not for women wearing dresses down to their ankles to appear 'godly', but wouldn't you consider spandex volley ball shorts immodest just b/c the Bible doesn't specifically say "spandex shorts" are immodest? I mean, common sense tells me that when what you wear leaves little to imagination, maybe it's immodest?
 
Starlifter said:
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, and I'm not for women wearing dresses down to their ankles to appear 'godly', but wouldn't you consider spandex volley ball shorts immodest just b/c the Bible doesn't specifically say "spandex shorts" are immodest? I mean, common sense tells me that when what you wear leaves little to imagination, maybe it's immodest?
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and that;s how it started last time.... .. the condemnation by hyper and part time hyper fundamentalists of spandex pants and shorts on women worn as outer clothing......:rolleyes:. ..well... i dress that way quite frequently depending on the occasion or the activity i am involved in..... and i have been raked over the coals for it many time over the entire span of my involvement with the fff.... and i am not going to change it..... .. ......

but one thing i can tell you is this... i do not dress that way to go to church... i dress in a very formal way to go to church just like i would dress to go to a wedding or a funeral.... even for a night out to a nice restaurant where specific types of dress is required and casual wear is innapropriate...... to put it in another light i dress like i would if i was going to job interview as a front desk receptionist in a law office... or being considered as a partner in the law firm itself..... (things way out of my league but not out of my ability to dress like)..... .. ...

yet.. some people in the world of fundamentalism today go to church wearing board shorts.. ragged jeans... t-shirts and backwards baseball hats ... then do a wiggle dance down the ailse to their seat in synch to whatever their church "worship" band is playing - while condeming me for dressing nice in church...... they claim we are trying to "impress" God by wearing '"church clothes" as if it;s even possible to impress God and as if someone being dressed nicely in church is a personal offense to both God and also to them.......

we have had that discussion here before too before about people being "over dressed" at church and how it offends certain people to see it.... it separated a few long time friendships as well.. .. ...does there ever come a time when fundamentalist mind their own business on issues that don;t affect them?...
 
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illinoisguy said:
For the first time in history that I am aware of, a fundamentalist has proposed a numerical standard for Christian attire. Dr. Shelton Smith said this, as an addendum to a discussion of mixed bathing, in the August 2, 2024 issue of "Sword of the Lord," page 20:

"I simply do not believe that Christians ought to undress themselves for going out in public. There is very little of your flesh that should be uncovered. About 90% or more of your body should be covered. Whatever portion of your flesh you leave uncovered, it strongly suggests that you probably don't mind people looking at it. Consequently, I recommend a pretty full attire.

"I hope this will help you understand that Christians ought to dress modestly. we should not attempt to mimic the world in its state of undress."

The 90% standard would appear to mean that very little of our bodies, other than face and hands, can be left uncovered in public. I am not sure what to make of this. I wonder if any significant number of IFBx lay people and pastors, even among churches that advertise in the "Sword of the Lord," would take such a standard seriously.

It could be said that Smith is not attempting to lay down the law for all fundamentalists - perhaps he is merely making a suggestion, a recommendation, some helpful advice, for our own good. Nevertheless, the publication of such a strict standard, even as a suggestion only, could be a discouragement to folks considering affiliation with an IFBx congregation.
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Sheldon Smith does not need to tell women how to dress thank you
 
aleshanee said:
and that;s how it started last time.... .. the condemnation by hyper and part time hyper fundamentalists of spandex pants and shorts on women worn as outer clothing......:rolleyes:. ..well... i dress that way quite frequently depending on the occasion or the activity i am involved in..... and i have raked over the coals for it many time over the entire span of my involvement with the fff.... and i am not going to change it..... .. ......

but one thing i can tell you is this... i do not dress that way to go to church... i dress in a very formal way to go to church just like i would dress to go to a wedding or a funeral.... even for a night out to a nice restaurant where specific types of dress is required and casual wear is innapropriate...... to put it in another light i dress like i would if i was going to job interview as a front desk receptionist in a law office... or being considered as a partner in the law firm itself..... (things way out of my league but not out of my ability to dress like)..... .. ...

yet.. some people in the world of fundamentalism today go to church wearing board shorts.. ragged jeans... t-shirts and backwards baseball hats ... then do a wiggle dance down the ailse to their seat in synch to whatever their church "worship" band is playing - while condeming me for dressing nice in church...... they claim we are trying to "impress" God by wearing '"church clothes" as if it;s even possible to impress God and as if someone being dressed nicely in church is a personal offense to both God and also to them.......

we have had that discussion here before too before about people being "over dressed" at church and how it offends certain people to see it.... it separated a few long time friendships as well.. .. ...does there ever come a time when fundamentalist mind their own business on issues that don;t affect them?...
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Good post. Pastors have a hard time balancing things out these days.
 
biscuit1953 said:
When Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart was asked to describe his test for obscenity in 1964, he responded: "I know it when I see it." How are prostitutes dressed today? Would John MacArthur or any other pastor allow women singing in the choir in a bikini?
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Couldn't answer, eh?
 
Ransom said:
Couldn't answer, eh?
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I asked you what prostitutes wear today, not 2000 B.C. Would a pastor be legalistic if he didn't allow a woman to wear a bikini in the choir? Everything is so relative today that no one can make any discernment of what crosses the line without being called a "legalist." I agree moderation should be the standard.
 
Ransom said:
And how did the harlots dress back in the day?

Hint: There's a reason Judah didn't recognize his own daughter-in-law.
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A variety of external fashion could indicate the practice of prostitution in Solomons day, among those might be a veil. Whatever the attire referenced in Prov 7 might have consisted of, it can’t be argued from that passage that sexuality and outward adornment, or lack thereof, are immaterial factors to the discussion of enticement/temptation.
 
ALAYMAN said:
A variety of external fashion could indicate the practice of prostitution in Solomons day, among those might be a veil. Whatever the attire referenced in Prov 7 might have consisted of, it can’t be argued from that passage that sexuality and outward adornment, or lack thereof, are immaterial factors to the discussion of enticement/temptation.
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Why do you have to be so smart, huh?
 
Starlifter said:
What is "modest apparel?"
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""These two qualities are to inform the way that I dress. Let’s check out these definitions.
Modesty--“Propriety: The avoidance of clothing and adornment that is extravagant, showy, and sexually enticing. ”Self Control--“Restraint, moderation for the purpose of purity. ”Maybe modesty is a word you don’t really want to think about. Perhaps you’ve had a vague idea that it means “ugly” or “out of style.” It may not have occurred to you that God has something to say about the clothes you wear. As do all Scriptural commands, this command to modesty and self-control has broader implications than merely externals, what we wear. It goes right to the heart of WHY we wear what we wear. Our clothes, whether we realize it or not, say something. They give us away. They reveal the heart behind the clothes we wear. A modest heart comes before modest dress. So what do your clothes say about your heart? What would we discover if we met your closet before we met you? Do your clothes reveal a heart of modesty and self-control?

...Ultimately, as Janelle said, it’s about our hearts; for, a modest heart comes before modest dress .You see, immodest dress is more than simply wearing skimpy clothing. Often, it’s an expression of pride, the opposite of humility. Simply put, immodest clothes are pride on display. In his book Humility: True Greatness, my dad explains that “The proud person seeks to glorify himself and not God, thereby attempting in effect to deprive God of something only He is worthy to receive. ”In other words, the immodest girl seeks to dress in a way that draws attention to herself and to her body, instead of serving others and bringing glory to the Savior."

 
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