christundivided said:
I don't think there's a difference between "merit that is pure grace" and "walking worthy of our calling". It seems just a case of different jargon rather than different intent.
Are you a Baptist with a big B? Chuck certainly was.
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I don't think there's a difference between "merit that is pure grace" and "walking worthy of our calling". It seems just a case of different jargon rather than different intent.
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[quote author=rsc2a]
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
[/quote]
So you think that it's okay to claim that we can merit grace for our (and others salvation) in the process of sanctification? Is Christ's work sufficient, or do we need to add to it once we get saved? Is the Catholic Mass okay with you? Should we (actually the priest) bring Christ down to us so that we might re-sacrifice Him for our venial and mortal sins (and where's that crap at in the Bible)?
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
[/quote]
So you think that it's okay to claim that we can merit grace for our (and others salvation) in the process of sanctification? Is Christ's work sufficient, or do we need to add to it once we get saved? Is the Catholic Mass okay with you? Should we (actually the priest) bring Christ down to us so that we might re-sacrifice Him for our venial and mortal sins (and where's that crap at in the Bible)?
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ALAYMAN said:
The question wasn't whether I agree with all of Catholic theology but whether or not they believe in Sola Gratia.
I provided official RCC teaching showing that they very much believe in Sola Gratia, even if they don't believe in it exactly like you (or me)....
...and here's the thing....
...that's perfectly ok. We agree on the essentials. Unity is not uniformity. We all believe in the same Truth in spite of the fact that we don't agree on other (important!) doctrinal issues. In the last recorded prayer we have from Jesus, the one He prayed right before He was slaughtered for us (Protestant, Catholic and even others!), our Savior asked His Father:
"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."
...notice what the emphasis is on...and why.
rsc2a said:
:-*
I never saw things quite that way. It might have something to do with finding my into Christianity by way of C.S. Lewis and his Inkling friends rather than from IFB.
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[quote author=rsc2a]
The question wasn't whether I agree with all of Catholic theology but whether or not they believe in Sola Gratia.
I provided official RCC teaching showing that they very much believe in Sola Gratia, even if they don't believe in it exactly like you (or me)....
...and here's the thing....
...that's perfectly ok. We agree on the essentials. Unity is not uniformity. We all believe in the same Truth in spite of the fact that we don't agree on other (important!) doctrinal issues. In the last recorded prayer we have from Jesus, the one He prayed right before He was slaughtered for us (Protestant, Catholic and even others!), our Savior asked His Father:
"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."
...notice what the emphasis is on...and why.
[/quote]
"Essentials" regarding soteriology is the foundational cornerstone to Christian being. If soteriology is wrong then it matters not what you think about eccelesiology, or mode of baptism, etc. The fact is that Rome comingles justification with sanctification. This is not even disputable. The passages you cite regarding grace are analogous to asking a Mormon if Jesus is his Savior. He will say "yes" everytime, but when you press him about who Jesus is, you have a fatally flawed version of Jesus that isn't really Jesus at all. In fact, it's a Jesus of another Gospel. The Judaizers intended to add works to the gospel and were renounced. Independent Fundamental Baptists are excoriated daily for their flawed view of salvation by grace and sanctification by standards/works, but somehow the same folk who impugn the nature of the gospel preached by IFBs will give a complete pass to the ancient heresy of the works-based system that Rome foists on it because their sophistry is more elegant.
Trent said it this way:
If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which they were justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
The word "Sola" is anathema to Catholic definition of grace, plain and simple.
The question wasn't whether I agree with all of Catholic theology but whether or not they believe in Sola Gratia.
I provided official RCC teaching showing that they very much believe in Sola Gratia, even if they don't believe in it exactly like you (or me)....
...and here's the thing....
...that's perfectly ok. We agree on the essentials. Unity is not uniformity. We all believe in the same Truth in spite of the fact that we don't agree on other (important!) doctrinal issues. In the last recorded prayer we have from Jesus, the one He prayed right before He was slaughtered for us (Protestant, Catholic and even others!), our Savior asked His Father:
"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."
...notice what the emphasis is on...and why.
[/quote]
"Essentials" regarding soteriology is the foundational cornerstone to Christian being. If soteriology is wrong then it matters not what you think about eccelesiology, or mode of baptism, etc. The fact is that Rome comingles justification with sanctification. This is not even disputable. The passages you cite regarding grace are analogous to asking a Mormon if Jesus is his Savior. He will say "yes" everytime, but when you press him about who Jesus is, you have a fatally flawed version of Jesus that isn't really Jesus at all. In fact, it's a Jesus of another Gospel. The Judaizers intended to add works to the gospel and were renounced. Independent Fundamental Baptists are excoriated daily for their flawed view of salvation by grace and sanctification by standards/works, but somehow the same folk who impugn the nature of the gospel preached by IFBs will give a complete pass to the ancient heresy of the works-based system that Rome foists on it because their sophistry is more elegant.
Trent said it this way:
If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which they were justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
The word "Sola" is anathema to Catholic definition of grace, plain and simple.
C
christundivided
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Izdaari said:
The difference is within "intent". We never intend to "merit" God grace. We do intend to walk "worthy" of its call. The first shows that we know our efforts will never succeed.
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rsc2a said:
Did I make the statement somewhere that "systematic theology is the cornerstone of Christian being"? Why would you attempt to move the goalposts like that and misrepresent what I said? What I actually said in effect, not what you attributed to me, was that a proper understanding of the gospel is necessary to get saved (soteriology). That should have been sufficiently evident from the analogy that I spoke of regarding Mormonism as well as Galatian Judaizers. A false gospel leads to a false conversion (hence Matt 7:22).
And it seems that you ignored the pronouncement of Trent that the justification by faith alone is anathema.
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[quote author=rsc2a]
Do you think a perfect understanding of soteriology is necessary for conversion?
[/quote]
No.
Do you think 1-2-3 pray with me is the model for evangelism?
Next time I'm witnessing would you have me to let on that Jesus is the half-brother of Satan, and actually the archangel Michael?
How about I tell them that their dead saintly grandpa who was a former deacon in the church might be able to do some interceding for them?
Should I tell them that the blood of Jesus, plus their perservering spirit and prayers will, er, might get them to heaven?
Do you think a perfect understanding of soteriology is necessary for conversion?
[/quote]
No.
Do you think 1-2-3 pray with me is the model for evangelism?
Next time I'm witnessing would you have me to let on that Jesus is the half-brother of Satan, and actually the archangel Michael?
How about I tell them that their dead saintly grandpa who was a former deacon in the church might be able to do some interceding for them?
Should I tell them that the blood of Jesus, plus their perservering spirit and prayers will, er, might get them to heaven?
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[quote author=rsc2a]Why are you backtracking?
[/quote]
Why are you being obtuse and evading questions? Do you only ask questions, but don't answer them?
How about we give them an Americorps schpiel and hope for the best when we're witnessing?
[/quote]
Why are you being obtuse and evading questions? Do you only ask questions, but don't answer them?
How about we give them an Americorps schpiel and hope for the best when we're witnessing?