Are you a Baptist with a big B? Chuck certainly was.

[Fresh Air]

By church history I take it you mean Chatholic Church history?

*whispers quietly*

Catholics are also Christians.

/whisper

Also I take it you believe the salvation by grace was non existence for 1200 years till the reformation?

They also believe in salvation by grace.

That's funny. Somehow the 200,000 Polish/Hispanic Catholics within one mile of my church building have never gotten that memo. I know, b/c in the past 8 years we have knocked on every door within that mile ...and I haven't yet met one Catholic in this hugely Catholic neighborhood that had a grasp of scriptural salvation.

 

[rsc2a]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

 

[OZZY]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

Seems you have no fire insurance . Your works are as filthy rags and if you are trusting them for salvation which the Catholics do I am afraid you salvation shall be in vain.


          "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

          "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

          "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7)

 

[rsc2a]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

Seems you have no fire insurance . Your works are as filthy rags and if you are trusting them for salvation which the Catholics do I am afraid you salvation shall be in vain.

:

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

You know, I have been saved for 29 years and a Baptist that whole time except for a couple of years in a Missionary Alliance Church, and I never heard anyone lead anyone to Christ that way, nor met anyone that got saved that way.  Seems presuppositions about Baptists abound as much as about Catholics.

 

[Bob H]

Council of Trent --> CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

You don't like the book of James?

"Luther

 

[rsc2a]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

You know, I have been saved for 29 years and a Baptist that whole time except for a couple of years in a Missionary Alliance Church, and I never heard anyone lead anyone to Christ that way, nor met anyone that got saved that way.  Seems presuppositions about Baptists abound as much as about Catholics.

I've heard plenty of altar call prayer, "once saved, always saved", do what you want stories in my time...

 

[rsc2a]

Council of Trent --> CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

You don't like the book of James?

"Luther

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

You know, I have been saved for 29 years and a Baptist that whole time except for a couple of years in a Missionary Alliance Church, and I never heard anyone lead anyone to Christ that way, nor met anyone that got saved that way.  Seems presuppositions about Baptists abound as much as about Catholics.

I've heard plenty of altar call prayer, "once saved, always saved", do what you want stories in my time...

So you have been a Baptist your whole life?  If not, I don't want to hear anything.  Just because you think God is a liar, that doesn't phase me at all.

 

[Izdaari]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

Seems you have no fire insurance . Your works are as filthy rags and if you are trusting them for salvation which the Catholics do I am afraid you salvation shall be in vain.


          "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

          "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

          "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7)

All the Scriptures you quoted are found in Catholic Bibles too.  :-*

 

[rsc2a]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

You know, I have been saved for 29 years and a Baptist that whole time except for a couple of years in a Missionary Alliance Church, and I never heard anyone lead anyone to Christ that way, nor met anyone that got saved that way.  Seems presuppositions about Baptists abound as much as about Catholics.

I've heard plenty of altar call prayer, "once saved, always saved", do what you want stories in my time...

So you have been a Baptist your whole life?  If not, I don't want to hear anything.

Was one for a long time. Heard that spiel plenty of times too.

Just because you think God is a liar, that doesn't phase me at all.

You think a simple intellectual belief is enough? Even the demons believe....

You don't think that "belief" means more than a head knowledge? You don't think that belief results in a transformation that will be proven by your actions? You think it's possible to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, made into a new creation, transformed into a child of God and not live out your life differently? You don't think faith without works is dead?

Do you believe Jesus is God? Do you call Him a liar?

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right,

 

[ALAYMAN]

By church history I take it you mean Chatholic Church history?

*whispers quietly*

Catholics are also Christians.

/whisper

Also I take it you believe the salvation by grace was non existence for 1200 years till the reformation?

They also believe in salvation by grace.

Mormons also claim that it is God's grace that saves them.  Do you believe that Mormons are also saved by grace (as they define grace)?

 

[rsc2a]

Mormons also claim that it is God's grace that saves them.  Do you believe that Mormons are also saved by grace (as they define grace)?

By grace as they define it, no. By grace as the Bible defines it, possibly.

But there is a major difference in Mormonism and Catholicism. Catholics have absolutely no qualms about affirming the three ecumenical creeds. Where they may have different beliefs than I do, they have the essentials right.

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]By grace as they define it, no. By grace as the Bible defines it, possibly.

But there is a major difference in Mormonism and Catholicism. Catholics have absolutely no qualms about affirming the three ecumenical creeds. Where they may have different beliefs than I do, they have the essentials right.

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.
[/quote]

The Roman Catholic "infusion" (versus imputation) of grace is fundamentally the same as the Mormon's claims of salvation by grace, particularly in relation to the fact that it is not Sola Gratia.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]By grace as they define it, no. By grace as the Bible defines it, possibly.

But there is a major difference in Mormonism and Catholicism. Catholics have absolutely no qualms about affirming the three ecumenical creeds. Where they may have different beliefs than I do, they have the essentials right.

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.

The Roman Catholic "infusion" (versus imputation) of grace is fundamentally the same as the Mormon's claims of salvation by grace, particularly in relation to the fact that it is not Sola Gratia.
[/quote]

Sola gratia is the teaching that salvation comes by divine grace or "unmerited favor" only, not as something merited by the sinner. This means that salvation is an unearned gift from God for Jesus' sake. Some refer to it as a "de-earned" gift since unbelievers lived in such a way as forfeit any gift from God. While some maintain that this doctrine is the opposite of "works' righteousness" and conflicts with some of the aspects of the Roman Catholic doctrine of merit, it might be asserted that [Sola Gratia], taken at face value, conflicts in no way with Roman Catholic teaching; while the doctrine that grace is truly and always a gift of God is held in agreement between both views, the difference in doctrine lies mainly in two facts: that of God as sole actor in grace (in other words, that grace is always efficacious without any cooperation by man), and second, that man cannot by any action of his own, acting under the influence of grace, cooperate with grace to "merit" greater graces for himself (the latter would be the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church). This doctrine asserts divine monergism in salvation: God acts alone to save the sinner.

Source

In fact, the RCC, in some respects, more strongly believes in Sola Gratia than Arminians. In fact, the Catholics would easily affirm four of the five Solas.

 

[JrChurch]

''Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others..."

That statement must make a few of our esteemed posters choke.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]

Sola gratia is the teaching that salvation comes by divine grace or "unmerited favor" only, not as something merited by the sinner. This means that salvation is an unearned gift from God for Jesus' sake. Some refer to it as a "de-earned" gift since unbelievers lived in such a way as forfeit any gift from God. While some maintain that this doctrine is the opposite of "works' righteousness" and conflicts with some of the aspects of the Roman Catholic doctrine of merit, it might be asserted that [Sola Gratia], taken at face value, conflicts in no way with Roman Catholic teaching; while the doctrine that grace is truly and always a gift of God is held in agreement between both views, the difference in doctrine lies mainly in two facts: that of God as sole actor in grace (in other words, that grace is always efficacious without any cooperation by man), and second, that man cannot by any action of his own, acting under the influence of grace, cooperate with grace to "merit" greater graces for himself (the latter would be the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church). This doctrine asserts divine monergism in salvation: God acts alone to save the sinner.

Source

In fact, the RCC, in some respects, more strongly believes in Sola Gratia than Arminians. In fact, the Catholics would easily affirm four of the five Solas.
[/quote]

Fallacy of Equivocation:
This is a logical fallacy which occurs when one definition of a word or phrase is imported into that same word which, from the context, does not bear the same meaning or connotation.
An example of that would be the same example used in the fallacy of anachronism (a.) in which a modern definition of the word, "church", is imported into a first century text. Thus, the RC argument actually utilizes both an anachronism and an equivocation of terms.[size=14pt]
Another example would be when RC

 

[OZZY]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

Seems you have no fire insurance . Your works are as filthy rags and if you are trusting them for salvation which the Catholics do I am afraid you salvation shall be in vain.


          "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

          "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

          "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7)

All the Scriptures you quoted are found in Catholic Bibles too.  :-*

They are also found in the Mormon and Jehovah Witnesses bibles. So I guess you believe they are doctrinally correct also? :-/

 

[christundivided]

''Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others..."

That statement must make a few of our esteemed posters choke.

There has never been a "Baptist" government.

Just name "1" and lets take a look at their principles.

 

[Izdaari]

...a grasp of scriptural salvation.

1....2....3.....pray after me.

Now you've got your fire insurance...

Seems you have no fire insurance . Your works are as filthy rags and if you are trusting them for salvation which the Catholics do I am afraid you salvation shall be in vain.


          "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

          "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

          "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7)

All the Scriptures you quoted are found in Catholic Bibles too.  :-*

They are also found in the Mormon and Jehovah Witnesses bibles. So I guess you believe they are doctrinally correct also? :-/

No, not at all. I didn't say they meant the RCC is doctrinally correct either. I have many disagreements with the RCC, but I do think they are Christian. Heretical Christian perhaps, but Christian. Unlike LDS and JW, which I classify as Christian-based cults.