Alumni Meeting

Qwerty, that is interesting for sure.

On the one hand if he were my friend I would hope he could move away from that "offense" and rebuild his life. I can only imagine how hard it is for his wife in any stage of the whole situation.

On the other hand I understand where people are coming from with the posts here as well.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Myself, I have a much bigger problem with people like EL who publicly lied to the congregation to hopefully hide sin and has a history among those in his youth groups of being incredibly to froward with teen girls in public.  This guy was rewarded by the system with a trip to Hawaii for his transgressions.

This is why most people are looking for our home church or alma mater to have a shake-up in the leadership level.  If you wwant to keep the guy employed - give him some low-level maintenance job where he is never seen, or, stick him in the basement shipping books for Mrs. Chalifoux.  Just stop promoting the same guy who was part of the DH, JH, JS mess as a great leader who we should blindly follow.

Just curious here but I wonder how many books can they be shipping now?
 
BALAAM said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Myself, I have a much bigger problem with people like EL who publicly lied to the congregation to hopefully hide sin and has a history among those in his youth groups of being incredibly to froward with teen girls in public.  This guy was rewarded by the system with a trip to Hawaii for his transgressions.

This is why most people are looking for our home church or alma mater to have a shake-up in the leadership level.  If you wwant to keep the guy employed - give him some low-level maintenance job where he is never seen, or, stick him in the basement shipping books for Mrs. Chalifoux.  Just stop promoting the same guy who was part of the DH, JH, JS mess as a great leader who we should blindly follow.

Just curious here but I wonder how many books can they be shipping now?

Maybe it's like after WWII,... We better buy these books now because someday people won't believe what happened here.
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Bravo said:
kaba said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Bravo said:
TidesofTruth said:
AmazedbyGrace said:
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2014/09/poster-boys/

So, is this another obvious problem Wilkerson will not be addressing?

Does he have anything to do with young people?

Does helping coach his son's little league team count as doing anything with "young people"?

Go to any kid's sports league in the nation.  Parents help out.  There is not a background check for parent helpers.  If there was, and his record is expunged (as some have claimed), nothing would show.  Thus, there is no liability on any part.  If the dad made a mistake in the past, paid his dues, and is now trying to be an involved parent and providing husband......sounds like reconciliation. 

So......the question must be asked.  Are you really "Amazed by Grace?"  Or are you "Angered by Grace?"

Actually in my town, if you help with the little league you are checked out

That's because your town doesn't understand grace! Because apparently if they did it wouldn't be a problem seem to be the implication.

My response was based upon your statement that he "helped coach" a little league team.

My kids have been in church sports, city sports and private league sports (Sports and other such groups) and worked with both church and private schools.  I believe head coaches go through a background check.  I don't think that the parent who shows up at practices and helps coach does get the check.  Private schools do not allow parents to drive for field trips without background checks.  Parents who show up to help with events are not screened.  In my experience, church schools are more lax than others because they feel that they already know the parents and their history, though some churches are different.  One church I attended required every one who worked in any aspect of the church to have an annual background check.

Even still, if the group runs a background check and it comes back clean.....they cannot prevent him from being involved.  We may have our opinions on the law, but the law is the law and as citizens, we have to abide by it.  For whatever reason, judging from the posts here, the judicial system heard all sides of the case and decided that his record should be expunged (completely eradicated - dare I say - justified?).  If you know something that the courts don't - go to the courts.  If you think the law should change, write a law.  This is what Joy Evans Rider is doing - she didn't like the law that prevented her abuser from prosecution, so she is petitioning the government to change the law.

Mocking the grace of God!?!  Not a good idea in my opinion.  In his book, The Cross Centered Life, CJ Mahaney writes along these lines:  Why should we be shocked when we hear the depths of sin which some Christian has backslidden?  He has already admitted he was a vile sinner deserving of hell when he testified of his salvation.  If the cross be enough to redeem us from our initial transgressions, it is enough to restore us to a relationship with Christ after another sin.

People who are living in violation of 1 Tim 3, should be disallowed from leadership in ministry.  I believe there are some sins that would prevent one from being restored to any position of leadership in ministry and have been very vocal about that fact on this forum.  We must treat a non-repentant Christian as a heathen after our sincerest efforts of restoration go unchecked.  However, when we seek to restore a Christian brother or sister, and the individual turns back to God.....is not this the main purpose of Jesus Christ?  Calling sinners to repentance?  Should a Christian with a certain past be permitted in leadership, or positions to publicly admonish another?  NO!  Should they be allowed to have a job and the opportunity to now spend time with their family, loving his wife as Christ loved the church and rearing his children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?  I think so.

Grace of God.

God's grace is more than sufficient. That does not mean Jorgensen has gone through restoration at the church level. Has he taken responsibility for his behavior and publicly repented in front of the church? Were the parents of youth made aware of his offense?

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU!

Did you do your responsibility as a brother/sister in Christ?  Were you obedient to the word of God? 

I noticed Amazed after reading your posts that you like to drop link bombs on fallen people.  At least on BO a sin of 40 years ago and this one of 10 years.  But did you ever go to them.  Did you ever obey scripture and go to them and restore them?  Did you ever pray with them or at least for them?  I went to both of them within hours of hearing of the issues.  I asked what happened from them (not the gossip mill).  I prayed with them.  I encouraged them in the Lord. I was blunt with them about their sin.  I stood on the side of God and them and we all looked at their sin and decried how wicked it was and how awful that we allow ourselves to get caught up in wickedness when we have such a wonderful Saviour who saved us from such horror.  My sin as well.  I won't get into degrees and no I have never been involved with these things.  I am just a regular layman.  But Sin is a destroyer.  It is a destroyer of the victim and it is the destroyer of the sinner and it is a destroyer of families. And we must stop the bleeding.  We must hold each other accountable.  Dropping link bombs, you think you are helping victims or potential victims but you are not.  Do what scripture says.  Restore them and hold them accountable.

Galations 6:1-3  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.


 
qwerty said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Even still, if the group runs a background check and it comes back clean.....they cannot prevent him from being involved.  We may have our opinions on the law, but the law is the law and as citizens, we have to abide by it.  For whatever reason, judging from the posts here, the judicial system heard all sides of the case and decided that his record should be expunged (completely eradicated - dare I say - justified?).  If you know something that the courts don't - go to the courts.  If you think the law should change, write a law.  This is what Joy Evans Rider is doing - she didn't like the law that prevented her abuser from prosecution, so she is petitioning the government to change the law.

Bravo said:
Does helping coach his son's little league team count as doing anything with "young people"?

I am double quoting since this may answer Bravo's question as well.... I wanted to get on a real computer to do this, otherwise I would have done this much earlier to address Bravo's statement.

When a record is expunged, it is quite an interesting process.  I am familiar with it since in recent years, Indiana has broadened the ability for individuals to have a record expunged and technically there are a couple types of expungements in this state.

Although I would not go as far as saying someone is "justified", I do understand what you are trying to say.  I know a lot of mopes that have had their record expunged of incidents.  When a case is expunged, all elements of that case are sealed.  This would include incident reports at the police department relating to the case (as well as tickets/warnings, etc).  The case is removed from the court system, as well as all elements of the proceedings.  It is basically as if it never happened, despite the fact that people were there, testified, there was a trial, and a ruling.  When a court expunges the case, they in all practical purposes, vacate the judgement by the court.  Documentation is sent to all parties involved that there was an expungement and that they are to seal all information related to the case.  They can not "confirm or deny" the existence of that information.  The person can legally state they were not arrested/charged/convicted of said crime (with some exceptions where they must disclose that they have an expunged charge or conviction).

If someone is denied employment, promotions, etc as a result of someone finding out about an expunged record, they can be civilly sued (expungement is a civil process as well).  In addition, those that harass, intimidate, or annoy an individual of an expunged charge can also be charged in a civil litigation.

It is kind of a slippery slope at times, especially in the age where information is so readily available at the fingertips.

Interesting indeed.  I agree, it is not really justified.  It is interesting that all parties are legally bound to never bring it up again.  It is also interesting that the one accused is able to bring lawsuit for "harassment, intimidation or annoyance."  I guess he could then bring civil suit against some people here! 
 
Bravo said:
BALAAM said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Myself, I have a much bigger problem with people like EL who publicly lied to the congregation to hopefully hide sin and has a history among those in his youth groups of being incredibly to froward with teen girls in public.  This guy was rewarded by the system with a trip to Hawaii for his transgressions.

This is why most people are looking for our home church or alma mater to have a shake-up in the leadership level.  If you wwant to keep the guy employed - give him some low-level maintenance job where he is never seen, or, stick him in the basement shipping books for Mrs. Chalifoux.  Just stop promoting the same guy who was part of the DH, JH, JS mess as a great leader who we should blindly follow.

Just curious here but I wonder how many books can they be shipping now?

Maybe it's like after WWII,... We better buy these books now because someday people won't believe what happened here.

Now that's funny!  :P

I have tried to explain to people the world in which I grew up, lost cause.  Maybe we should keep our old stuff for a museum dedicated to Bro. Hyles - wait - it already exists.  Could it be that it would be used to teach something other than it was intended to teach?
 
TidesofTruth said:
AmazedbyGrace said:
God's grace is more than sufficient. That does not mean Jorgensen has gone through restoration at the church level. Has he taken responsibility for his behavior and publicly repented in front of the church? Were the parents of youth made aware of his offense?

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU!

Did you do your responsibility as a brother/sister in Christ?  Were you obedient to the word of God? 

I noticed Amazed after reading your posts that you like to drop link bombs on fallen people.  At least on BO a sin of 40 years ago and this one of 10 years.  But did you ever go to them.  Did you ever obey scripture and go to them and restore them?  Did you ever pray with them or at least for them?  I went to both of them within hours of hearing of the issues.  I asked what happened from them (not the gossip mill).  I prayed with them.  I encouraged them in the Lord. I was blunt with them about their sin.  I stood on the side of God and them and we all looked at their sin and decried how wicked it was and how awful that we allow ourselves to get caught up in wickedness when we have such a wonderful Saviour who saved us from such horror.  My sin as well.  I won't get into degrees and no I have never been involved with these things.  I am just a regular layman.  But Sin is a destroyer.  It is a destroyer of the victim and it is the destroyer of the sinner and it is a destroyer of families. And we must stop the bleeding.  We must hold each other accountable.  Dropping link bombs, you think you are helping victims or potential victims but you are not.  Do what scripture says.  Restore them and hold them accountable.

Galations 6:1-3  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Imagine that!  Someone followed Scripture!?!  Way to go Tides!

Well, "Angered" by Grace...it would appear as though you have born false witness.  Isn't that a sin, also?  I am coming to you asking you to repent, go before your church to confess your sin and seek restoration.  I trust you will post a link to the story to confirm that it really happened.  Of course, after you post the link, some bitter poster will probably post it after every single post you make to remind everyone to never ever read any of your posts anymore due to your criminal(?), sinful previous posts.  8)

If you want the law changed, go to the politicians and seek to have it changed.  Personally, I hope JR is successful and IN tightens its laws to allow prosecution of prior offenders.  I have counseled too many people who have been hurt.  The hurt is compounded by the sense of insecurity or insignificance in that their voice is not heard when the law cannot prosecute.  When a perp is still in the pastorate - please post and warn others of the destructive patterns of a mog.

However, don't seek to hurt someone who has done everything the law asks of them and everything that Scripture asks of them to find restoration.  Two different posters (Balaam and Tides) have spoken that this case is not like many of the others that come up here.  In this case, according to their testimony, restoration HAS occurred.  Why not rejoice in the Lord and be "Amazed by Grace?"
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Bravo said:
kaba said:
Binaca Chugger said:
Bravo said:
TidesofTruth said:
AmazedbyGrace said:
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2014/09/poster-boys/

So, is this another obvious problem Wilkerson will not be addressing?

Does he have anything to do with young people?

Does helping coach his son's little league team count as doing anything with "young people"?

Go to any kid's sports league in the nation.  Parents help out.  There is not a background check for parent helpers.  If there was, and his record is expunged (as some have claimed), nothing would show.  Thus, there is no liability on any part.  If the dad made a mistake in the past, paid his dues, and is now trying to be an involved parent and providing husband......sounds like reconciliation. 

So......the question must be asked.  Are you really "Amazed by Grace?"  Or are you "Angered by Grace?"

Actually in my town, if you help with the little league you are checked out

That's because your town doesn't understand grace! Because apparently if they did it wouldn't be a problem seem to be the implication.

My response was based upon your statement that he "helped coach" a little league team.

My kids have been in church sports, city sports and private league sports (Sports and other such groups) and worked with both church and private schools.  I believe head coaches go through a background check.  I don't think that the parent who shows up at practices and helps coach does get the check.  Private schools do not allow parents to drive for field trips without background checks.  Parents who show up to help with events are not screened.  In my experience, church schools are more lax than others because they feel that they already know the parents and their history, though some churches are different.  One church I attended required every one who worked in any aspect of the church to have an annual background check.

Even still, if the group runs a background check and it comes back clean.....they cannot prevent him from being involved.  We may have our opinions on the law, but the law is the law and as citizens, we have to abide by it.  For whatever reason, judging from the posts here, the judicial system heard all sides of the case and decided that his record should be expunged (completely eradicated - dare I say - justified?).  If you know something that the courts don't - go to the courts.  If you think the law should change, write a law.  This is what Joy Evans Rider is doing - she didn't like the law that prevented her abuser from prosecution, so she is petitioning the government to change the law.

Mocking the grace of God!?!  Not a good idea in my opinion.  In his book, The Cross Centered Life, CJ Mahaney writes along these lines:  Why should we be shocked when we hear the depths of sin which some Christian has backslidden?  He has already admitted he was a vile sinner deserving of hell when he testified of his salvation.  If the cross be enough to redeem us from our initial transgressions, it is enough to restore us to a relationship with Christ after another sin.

People who are living in violation of 1 Tim 3, should be disallowed from leadership in ministry.  I believe there are some sins that would prevent one from being restored to any position of leadership in ministry and have been very vocal about that fact on this forum.  We must treat a non-repentant Christian as a heathen after our sincerest efforts of restoration go unchecked.  However, when we seek to restore a Christian brother or sister, and the individual turns back to God.....is not this the main purpose of Jesus Christ?  Calling sinners to repentance?  Should a Christian with a certain past be permitted in leadership, or positions to publicly admonish another?  NO!  Should they be allowed to have a job and the opportunity to now spend time with their family, loving his wife as Christ loved the church and rearing his children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord?  I think so.

Should a sex offender be allowed to have a job?

Sure. Just not one in ministry. Shouldn't the average church member be able to assume a person who has been deemed qualified to work for a church does not have a prior sex offense? He should get a secular job that does not have him working with youth in any capacity.

Grace of God.

God's grace is more than sufficient. That does not mean Jorgensen has gone through restoration at the church level. Has he taken responsibility for his behavior and publicly repented in front of the church? Were the parents of youth made aware of his offense?

I would bet that has never happened, as it was not typical in a Hyles-type church.

People at the church need to know not to allow their kids to do overnights at his house or to accept rides from him. He should not be allowed to be a camp counselor when his kids are old enough for camp.

As for community leagues, I know Little League requires background checks even for those who do ground maintenance and run the snack bar. AYSO is also strict about checking backgrounds. I know of a case where LL was aware of a person currently being tried for a sex offense and that person was not even permitted to sit in the dugout to help, or to even do a shift at the snack bar. Parents on the team were made aware. Their policies reflect that they take child safety seriously...as they should.

I wholeheartedly agree laws should be changed when it comes to allowing convicted sex offenders to get their crime reduced to a misdemeanor after the fact, and to then get the record expunged. This is a loop hole that needs to be closed for the safety of the public, and I will certainly start writing letters to the gov't representatives in my state. I encourage others to do the same. Time to make some noise.

Money baby it takes money.  If he was found guilty or asked for a lesser charge and then it was expunged it took money baby its all about the money.
 
For those hoping the people discussing this situation online might be liable to be sued, please refer to the follow Supreme Court case:

"In 2001, the U.S. Supreme Court held in Bartnicki v. Vopper that media defendants could not be held liable for publishing truthful information of significant public interest or concern and lawfully obtained from a third party, even if that third party violated the law. - See more at: http://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news-media-law/news-media-and-law-spring-2012/more-states-attempting-seal#sthash.DWjdGGK8.dpuf"

I am just reading and commenting on something already posted on the internet.
 
AmazedbyGrace said:
For those hoping the people discussing this situation online might be liable to be sued, please refer to the follow Supreme Court case:

"In 2001, the U.S. Supreme Court held in Bartnicki v. Vopper that media defendants could not be held liable for publishing truthful information of significant public interest or concern and lawfully obtained from a third party, even if that third party violated the law. - See more at: http://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news-media-law/news-media-and-law-spring-2012/more-states-attempting-seal#sthash.DWjdGGK8.dpuf"

I am just reading and commenting on something already posted on the internet.
"A broadcaster cannot be held civilly liable for publishing documents or tapes illegally procured by a third-party."

Don't hurt yourself stretching that........
 
"A broadcaster cannot be held civilly liable for publishing documents or tapes illegally procured by a third-party."

Don't hurt yourself stretching that........

What's the chance he would subject himself to a deposition concerning the details of his past expunged behavior?

 
Appears he would not have to according to TidesofTruth and the christian get out of jail free card.......Galations 6:1-3  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. Sweep it under the rug.
 
GuyfawkesV49 said:
Appears he would not have to according to TidesofTruth and the christian get out of jail free card.......Galations 6:1-3  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.  Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. Sweep it under the rug.

So Galations (SP yours) 6:1-3 Is a "sweep it under the rug scripture" to you?  Let me understand you correctly.  I am doing you a service since you obviously so mishandled any truth about what I have said on this thread and also my post from the very beginning here http://www.fundamentalforums.org/hyles-anderson-college/from-just-a-member/msg69418/#msg69418 .  At least I am giving you the opportunity to explain yourself so I won't misjudge you nor lie on you like you seem to have done to me.  So please explain what appears an accusation against something God wrote.  And then please reread what I posted on this thread and my first post and either accept that you misjudged me and mischaracterized my position on sin by mistake or I will have to just accept the fact that you are a LIAR.
 
Restore and hold accountable? I do have an issue with that. Just seems a  little too convient  to me, and a way too sweep things under the rug. I admit I'm having issues with substitutionary atonement and specifically Rev 13:8.  Pray for me Tide. I am a member of the walking dead, having been cursed by John Hamblin and Tom Neal with death for speaking against the MOG.  No offense, being considered a liar by you sort of pales  in comparison.  My five year curse from MOG does not end  til 7-3-2016. This may be slightly off topic, but I was curious how Islam handled forgiveness of sins-I found this verse humorous....Allah's Apostle said, "Allah is more pleased with the repentance of His slave than anyone of you is pleased with finding his camel which he had lost in the desert."

—Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:75:321


No mention if it is a talking camel. 
 
GuyfawkesV49 said:
Restore and hold accountable? I do have an issue with that. Just seems a  little too convient  to me, and a way too sweep things under the rug. I admit I'm having issues with substitutionary atonement and specifically Rev 13:8.  Pray for me Tide. I am a member of the walking dead, having been cursed by John Hamblin and Tom Neal with death for speaking against the MOG.  No offense, being considered a liar by you sort of pales  in comparison.  My five year curse from MOG does not end  til 7-3-2016. This may be slightly off topic, but I was curious how Islam handled forgiveness of sins-I found this verse humorous....Allah's Apostle said, "Allah is more pleased with the repentance of His slave than anyone of you is pleased with finding his camel which he had lost in the desert."

—Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:75:321


No mention if it is a talking camel.

Guy, I decided to try responding to you according to your post.  I understand you were deeply hurt by a MOG.  I too, have been issued a death ultimatum.  Mine is supposed to run out at the end of this month (9/14).  I guess if I suddenly stop posting, you know what happened  ::).  I decided that my faith is not in a MOG, but in God.  I do not follow a MOG, but God.  I am not concerned with what a MOG thinks of me, I am very concerned with what Christ thinks of me.  I would challenge you to consider what it is that God thinks of you, which, of course, can be discovered at the cross.  Maybe, like me, you were taught a false version of religion which mandated that you please a MOG in order to please God.  I have accepted the heresy of my former teachers and now find peace with God through the grace given in Jesus Christ.  There is peace for you which will allow you to live at peace with others and understand the willingness of God to restore His own.
 
Just so you know, I am not dead.  His curse did not come true.
 
Galatians 6 is about restoration to fellowship and not about restoring a man as pastor.
 
breslau said:
Galatians 6 is about restoration to fellowship and not about restoring a man as pastor.
This we know, because there is no such office as pastor mentioned.
 
prophet said:
breslau said:
Galatians 6 is about restoration to fellowship and not about restoring a man as pastor.
This we know, because there is no such office as pastor mentioned.
True.  However most here or at least learned men who are Baptist have used the word pastor and in some cases preacher to mean bishop.  It is understood.  The catholic church destroyed the definition of bishop and made it of no use in similitude to the way the sodomites have taken the term "gay" and perverted it.    I guess we could try to reclaim it but I see no desire to do that.  But you already knew that.  Yes I understand your desire to bring back the New Testament church.  I have yet to see it in the western church yet.
 
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