A new honor from Bob Gray Sr

[Ekklesian]

I had a couple tell me that when the church needed money they would lock the doors and not let you out until you paid up. I'm just surprized no one called the police. But it was a different time

People aren't different, though. Either no one took it seriously, understanding that it was a symbolic move and no one was being truly imprisoned, and therefore there was no actual extortion, or there were no real men present, nor strong minded women. I'll find out for myself.

 

[Ekklesian]

Read the book

I will...keeping in mind I'm getting only one side of the story.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

I'm in the midst of reading it and found the following that explains why he didn't leave. I'm sure there's more.

I can understand. I believe the first time I heard Bro. Hyles in chapel, he shouted, "DON'T QUIT! DON'T QUIT" as he pounded the pulpit. Years later, I heard him shout from the pulpit in Hammond, "King Jack rules here!" It must have been every preacher boys' dream to have that much power over a crowd.

"The rule was that those who leave and say they are coming back never do. Hence, they are failures. I was not a failure, nor was I a quitter. These things were drilled into us day after day. If we could not make it at TBC we would never make it in the ministry.

Further, we were under the false notion that Longview Baptist Temple's brand of Christianity was the faith once delivered to the saints. LBT was the remnant. We were the only ones left in a world gone liberal. If LBT and what she stood for died, Christianity died. If we ever wanted to be used of God at all, we had to finish TBC and leave with Gray's approval.

Even more, our brand of fundamentalism, Gray's brand of fundamentalism, was the only branch of "Christianity" in which we could ever minister and be approved of God. Gray was heir to the throne in our wing of "fundy-ism." If Gray did not approve of us, our ministry was doomed to failure.

I desperately wanted God's approval and God's blessing on my ministry. Therefore, I must have Gray's approval and Gray's blessing on my ministry. The two things were one and the same. To think otherwise was tantamount to treason. The will of the man of God was the will of God. I must finish what I started. It's scary, now, when I think about it, to what degree we were brainwashed. All of these things are the ear-marks of a cult or cult-like religion.

So I went back. The first Sunday night, I walked forward at invitation and joined the church once again. After the invitation, as Gray read the decisions off that had been made, he came to mine. "James Spurgeon is coming tonight to join our church by letter from Open Bible Baptist Church in Waterflow, New Mexico. Amen? Where is he?"

Several people pointed to the section where I was sitting.

"There he is," said Gray. "You know what they say, a bad penny always returns."

It was an omen."​

I could tell my story, but its TLDR for most of you. Very short version. Saved at PSU. Lived near Kalamazoo, MI, (Bob Gray is from Galesburg) and heard Gray many times in those early days when he visited the area (88-92) I went to Maranatha in 92 as a grad student having a BS from Penn State and having worked in the business world 7 years. Was confused about KJV, TR, Pants on women, contemporary music, etc. Numerous profs there were not extreme fundies, and helped me. After 3 years there, I worked in a far right fundy church out east 4 years as a college campus missionary, and had my eyes open to the behind the scenes TOTAL EMPTINESS of spiritual vitality of so many Fundy churches and pastors, especially the pastor of the church I was in. He was a Fundy Big Shot, and totally devoid of any real spiritual life. It was all about keeping control and numbers. He threatened people, belittled people, hid his own involvement with a woman in another church who served in the christian school. When I confronted him, he deflected, and blamed people who were trying to expose him as small, non-Spiritual. Took me years to leave fundamentalism. I am a Reformed Baptist, served in a lay capacity at Bethlehem Baptist (Piper's church) for 15 years, now at a sister church. That is the really short version. James Spurgeon helped me leave, Voyle Glover really really helped me. Vic Nischik helped me. Robert Sumner helped me.

I'm still Baptist, conservative, now Calvinist, Non Cessationist, non KJVO, and non all the other legalism.



Jo,
Where did you land? Southern Baptist? Community Church? Presbyterian?

 

[Bob Jones VI]

What did they do? Chain the doors?

I think they posted Security a the Doors so no one could leave. It's been years since i read it, but it is all true and It really opened my eyes. I would totally recommend it. Will probably take you 2 hours to read the whole thing. The link is in my response to Average Joe.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

People aren't different, though. Either no one took it seriously, understanding that it was a symbolic move and no one was being truly imprisoned, and therefore there was no actual extortion, or there were no real men present, nor strong minded women. I'll find out for myself.

I think you nailed it. Yhe men were weak. James Spurgeon was strong enough to leave.

 

[Jo]

I never had a hard copy, but after James finished posting the Tales to the original FFF, they were made available in a word-processor file, and I'm sure I've still got that booting around on some old hard drive. Though it was in Microsoft Works. Don't know what I'm supposed to do with that anymore.

Anyway, here are some words to live by: "Grapes don't grow on trees."

I think that quote is from his dad, right? I love his dad. He helped him stay rooted.

 

[Jo]

I could tell my story, but its TLDR for most of you. Very short version. Saved at PSU. Lived near Kalamazoo, MI, (Bob Gray is from Galesburg) and heard Gray many times in those early days when he visited the area (88-92) I went to Maranatha in 92 as a grad student having a BS from Penn State and having worked in the business world 7 years. Was confused about KJV, TR, Pants on women, contemporary music, etc. Numerous profs there were not extreme fundies, and helped me. After 3 years there, I worked in a far right fundy church out east 4 years as a college campus missionary, and had my eyes open to the behind the scenes TOTAL EMPTINESS of spiritual vitality of so many Fundy churches and pastors, especially the pastor of the church I was in. He was a Fundy Big Shot, and totally devoid of any real spiritual life. It was all about keeping control and numbers. He threatened people, belittled people, hid his own involvement with a woman in another church who served in the christian school. When I confronted him, he deflected, and blamed people who were trying to expose him as small, non-Spiritual. Took me years to leave fundamentalism. I am a Reformed Baptist, served in a lay capacity at Bethlehem Baptist (Piper's church) for 15 years, now at a sister church. That is the really short version. James Spurgeon helped me leave, Voyle Glover really really helped me. Vic Nischik helped me. Robert Sumner helped me.

I'm still Baptist, conservative, now Calvinist, Non Cessationist, non KJVO, and non all the other legalism.



Jo,
Where did you land? Southern Baptist? Community Church? Presbyterian?

Do these guys have a handbook on how to be a jerk?! No wonder they were energized by Jack Hyles. They saw the power they could have by belittling others. If they were like that in public, I don't want to imagine what they were like in private with their family.

I'm glad you found your way, Bob. I stay away from IFB as much as possible. Honestly, I have visited several different churches and have landed on one that is Presbyterian. I'm still learning about faith, grace and most of all mercy.

God watches over me in spite of myself.

 

[Jo]

People aren't different, though. Either no one took it seriously, understanding that it was a symbolic move and no one was being truly imprisoned, and therefore there was no actual extortion, or there were no real men present, nor strong minded women. I'll find out for myself.

Any preacher or church staff that would put pressure on people to give to that extent is unconscionable. The part about the man who clearly struggled financially, rode a bike because he couldn't afford a car, and received letters from the church that he needed to fulfill his obligation to them was pitiful.

No love. No grace. Just hand over your money to me because I am the Man of God, and I need a Cadillac.

If Dickens were alive, he could write a masterpiece about the situation.

 

[Ransom]

I've still got Microsoft Works on my computer. I use it all the time in writing. I guess I just got used to using it over several others like Amipro. I lost that when I had a crash a few years back.

Apparently my word processor of choice (LibreOffice) will still import Works files. Which is more than you can say of an actual Microsoft product these days. Score one for open standards.

 

[Ransom]

I think that quote is from his dad, right? I love his dad. He helped him stay rooted.

Yep! And a guy you sense isn't going to take any bull, even in an environment where it's knee-deep.

 

[Ekklesian]

Any preacher or church staff that would put pressure on people to give to that extent is unconscionable.

If it was understood to be theatrics, then there was no real pressure. That's all I was saying. I'm not justifying the con man.

The part about the man who clearly struggled financially, rode a bike because he couldn't afford a car, and received letters from the church that he needed to fulfill his obligation to them was pitiful.

I'll get there, but the ones buying the snake oil have to take some responsibility for their own stupidity. Especially since, as far as I know, no one in IFBdom is prohibited from owning and reading their own Bibles.

No love. No grace. Just hand over your money to me because I am the Man of God, and I need a Cadillac.

If Dickens were alive, he could write a masterpiece about the situation.

The con man is responsible for his con. That's for certain. But he can't be blamed for the gullibility of fools.

 

[DrHuk&Duck]

I’ve got to say, I agree with @Ekklesian on this. I believe I’ve probably mentioned this in the past, but I feel very little sympathy for people who attended an abusive IFB church UNLESS they were minors and had no real say in the matter. If a person is an adult, they are free to walk out the door and never return. I can 100% guarantee you that if they block the exit doors at my church this upcoming Sunday morning and try to prevent my family from leaving, I’ll be dialing 911 and video recording the entire incident. If it goes beyond that, I’m willing to throw hands right there and then. That’s the great thing about our country—freedom to attend or not attend church. It’s right there in our guaranteed constitutional rights.

 

[illinoisguy]

If you ever hear your pastor making these kinds of excuses for abusive behavior, LEAVE that church!

[Quotes from Dr. Bob Gray Sr.]

"There is much talk especially on the Internet about pastoral abuse. Unfortunately much of this talk comes from disgruntled church members seeking to justify their leaving the church. Certainly there are cases of pastoral abuse, but in this day and age anything people feel infringes upon them personally is deemed as being.

"There is far too much being called pastoral abuse, which is nothing more than strong leadership. It is much like parental abuse. What my parents did in raising me would be called abuse today.

"I am not justifying any kind of real abuse [yes, you are, Bob], but unfortunately the word abuse has been broadened in its meaning beyond reasonability. That said it is possible that sometimes a pastor could inadvertently be guilty of abusing his people. . . .

"I get a little cranky at times. Sometimes I even get mean and angry. I would like to think that most of the time it’s on purpose, but I want to work at making certain that in my heart I’m still filled with God’s love and grace. I don’t want to be that bitter and cranky old preacher that Dr. Hyles feared becoming."

 

[Ekklesian]

It's been delightful reading thus far...

The pistol and the door locking was obvious theatrics. And I have seen some theatrics. Clearly no one thought anything about it. As the story is told, though, I wouldn't have put up with it if I were there. That makes me think there's more to the story.

I love the moniker he used for the girl he was sweet on... Miss X...

There is this, though...

The best that I could tell, many of the dating rules at TBC were derived from the vast fount of wisdom which found its source in Mrs. Bowen, wife of then college president Dr. Bob Bowen. A more bitter woman has never usurped the name "Christian."​

​

It's my experience that...if I may borrow from Kipling...It's the women, not the warriors, that turn us stark enthusiasts pale. I gotta say, poor Bob Bowen.

 

[Jo]

If it was understood to be theatrics, then there was no real pressure. That's all I was saying. I'm not justifying the con man.


I'll get there, but the ones buying the snake oil have to take some responsibility for their own stupidity. Especially since, as far as I know, no one in IFBdom is prohibited from owning and reading their own Bibles.


The con man is responsible for his con. That's for certain. But he can't be blamed for the gullibility of fools.

This is where it gets real. The poor fella did not have all the mental faculties one needs to navigate life. Spurgeon refers to him as an "idiot savant" and basically apologizes for using the term.

The church should have been counseling the poor guy or helping him out. Churches are filled with sinners and saints, wise and foolish people. We are all a little bit of both.

 

[Jo]

This is my quote from a previous post on this thread.

"To the moderator's right sat a group of well-known hyper-IFB preachers. I can't remember the man's name, but he was one of the pastors who was later discovered in very compromising situations with female members of his congregation. Anyway, he stood up and announced to the group that he objected to having a standard way of counting. Then he said something like, "This reeks of the problems we had with the Southern Baptist Convention!"


I just looked up the other Bob Gray who is deceased and was a pastor in Jacksonville, FL. I am 99% sure he was the pastor I was referring to.

Former pastor talked openly with police about sex charges

After his arrest on sex charges last year, former pastor Robert Gray admitted to a detective that he French kissed young girls at his church decades ago and hoped they would "return the affection."

www.news4jax.com

 

[Ransom]

I just looked up the other Bob Gray who is deceased and was a pastor in Jacksonville, FL. I am 99% sure he was the pastor I was referring to.

Yeah, before your time here, I think, but his scandal was a big topic here at the time. As I recall, "the other Bob Gray" was supposed to be one of the good ones, not like the clown show in Longview. (Course, those of us not in the IFB camp could have said the same thing about Steven Lawson not a year ago.)

 

[Walt]

For those who are not familiar with James Spurgeon's book "Tales From the Temple" about his experiences at Bob Gray's Longview Baptist Temple and Texas Baptist College, here is the link - the book is well worth reading:

Tales From The Temple by James T. Spurgeon

I was fascinated by Tales From the Temple and couldn't put it down when I first read it.

 

[Ekklesian]

Then, cynicism set in. I had the suspicion that no one in authority was really reading the notebooks anyway. So I started doing silly things with my notebook. Instead of writing my own thoughts from the scripture, I would write down word for word the sermon notes from Sunday. Or sometimes I would just copy a scripture into the blanks. Sometimes the thought and the application were one and the same, I would just word them differently. I even got real inventive and started doing strange alliterations using the first letter of each word to spell something. Sometimes, I even wrote things like, 'You guys really aren't reading this are you?'​

I think he and I could have been friends.

 

[Walt]

I’ve got to say, I agree with @Ekklesian on this. I believe I’ve probably mentioned this in the past, but I feel very little sympathy for people who attended an abusive IFB church UNLESS they were minors and had no real say in the matter. If a person is an adult, they are free to walk out the door and never return. I can 100% guarantee you that if they block the exit doors at my church this upcoming Sunday morning and try to prevent my family from leaving, I’ll be dialing 911 and video recording the entire incident. If it goes beyond that, I’m willing to throw hands right there and then. That’s the great thing about our country—freedom to attend or not attend church. It’s right there in our guaranteed constitutional rights.

Well, you could show some compassion on people. It's easy to take this stance, but, knowing several people who got involved in abusive (cult-like) churches, it's not quite so easy. Many of the people involved are good, decent people, and the church is busy, doing good things... it is great to see people regularly coming to Christ and getting baptized. Who would want to be against that. It kind of just sucks one in, and you don't realize how unscriptural it is unless you receive some kind of "wake-up".

I have a close friend that was involved is such a place, and he told me that he had three wake-up calls: one friend who attended another church showed him that the stories the church was putting out about a news item was utterly false; another friend provided some literature that he said really opened his eyes; the third was that he had been friends with a ex-staff member who told him about some of the things going on that had been kept from people.

From him and from others I've talked to, it's hard to admit that one got sucked into to such a mess.