10 Reasons Why You Should Vote For Obama

[christundivided]

No problem CU.  Thanks for sharing your views and listening to the views of others.  We will clearly have to agree to disagree which is not a problem.

Its hard for any two people to agree on much of anything anymore.   That's the good thing about America. We can disagree and everyone can pretty much go and do what they want to about it. I don't look forward to the day that changes. Its seems it is heading that way pretty quickly.

Thanks for sharing your views. Its nice to have your ideals challenged by an informed man such as yourself.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

If a church is closed down, who can they help?
Every church, every organization must choose who they will help and who they can't or won't help.
No organization or church can help everyone....

 

[graceandtruth]

No problem rsc2a.  We too will have to agree to disagree.  I really can't tell the difference between those who can't help themselves and those who won't help themselves because they know of no other viable lifestyle they feel is available to them.  Kind of like the Samaritan who assumed the man would get better, we too must assume that people will get better because we know the Gospel has the power to make people new creatures and grace is better understood when it is shown.

Good conversation rsc2a.  You and CU are helping to enlighten me as to why many in IFB and other Christian circles seem to ignore the need for social justice or misunderstand what I mean by social justice.  I am not looking for equality but for grace, generosity, and systemic solutions to problems that are the result of systemic wrongs.  I do however find it a little ironic to pray thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven and then say their will be equality in heaven but on earth we need to accept inequality as the norm and God's will for humanity.  Creates a bit of cognitive dissonance for me.

Thanks for the conversation friends.

Just saw your post TB and you are correct.  However, we have enough churches that could check their budget line items and find they are spending more on building decorations than relieving the poor.  Now if this were changed we could make a huge dent in the need of the poor and add to that personal generosity that so many claim to practice in lieu of tithing (no digs intended) there is no telling how much we could do.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

No problem rsc2a.  We too will have to agree to disagree.  I really can't tell the difference between those who can't help themselves and those who won't help themselves because they know of no other viable lifestyle they feel is available to them.  Kind of like the Samaritan who assumed the man would get better, we too must assume that people will get better because we know the Gospel has the power to make people new creatures and grace is better understood when it is shown.

Good conversation rsc2a.  You and CU are helping to enlighten me as to why many in IFB and other Christian circles seem to ignore the need for social justice or misunderstand what I mean by social justice.  I am not looking for equality but for grace, generosity, and systemic solutions to problems that are the result of systemic wrongs.  I do however find it a little ironic to pray thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven and then say their will be equality in heaven but on earth we need to accept inequality as the norm and God's will for humanity.  Creates a bit of cognitive dissonance for me.

Thanks for the conversation friends.

Just saw your post TB and you are correct.  However, we have enough churches that could check their budget line items and find they are spending more on building decorations than relieving the poor.  Now if this were changed we could make a huge dent in the need of the poor and add to that personal generosity that so many claim to practice in lieu of tithing (no digs intended) there is no telling how much we could do.

And you make a good point, but I think you have missed the change of direction in many of our fundamental ministries. Our church has, for years, operated a food pantry, where hundreds of families per month are provided food, clothing, resources to help them find and train for jobs. because of our community outreach, one of our Pastors serves on our local Social Services Board.

We also have a regular ministry in the local housing projects...block parties to meet the people, funnel them into our food pantry ministry and help with a computer lab and after scghool toutoring projects.
And, many, many, many churches offer such ministries.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=graceandtruth]I am not looking for equality but for grace, generosity, and systemic solutions to problems that are the result of systemic wrongs.  I do however find it a little ironic to pray thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven and then say their will be equality in heaven but on earth we need to accept inequality as the norm and God's will for humanity.  Creates a bit of cognitive dissonance for me.[/quote]

It should. Just because something is the norm doesn't mean it is the way it should be.

I'm not opposed to systematic measures at all to address social justice issues. I'm also in agreement that there are systematic reasons for some of the inequalities. However, I am aware that, without individual effort, every systematic reform will end up failing.

Therefore, not either/or but both/and.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I hasten to say that in our so called social justice type ministries, the Gospel is at the forefront...we are not interested in simply making people more comfortable on the road to hell!

And equality in the culture always means shared poverty...it isn't possible to govern or legislate away social divides, poverty or injustice!

 

[rsc2a]

I hasten to say that in our so called social justice type ministries, the Gospel is at the forefront...we are not interested in simply making people more comfortable on the road to hell!

I'd say that your ministries are fulfilling the Gospel in some parts....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And equality in the culture always means shared poverty...[/quote]

Not necessarily.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]...it isn't possible to govern or legislate away social divides, poverty or injustice![/quote]

Absolutely.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Tarheel Baptist:
And equality in the culture always means shared poverty...

rsc2a:
Not necessarily.


I would say that, in practice, that has been the result.
I don't know of a social experiment since the Book of Acts that hasn't ended in shared poverty...USSR, Cuba and
N. Korea to name the most recent. China seems to be 'seeing the light' and moving toward capitalism....not saying it's a panacea but better than the alternatives!

 

[graceandtruth]

...it isn't possible to govern or legislate away social divides, poverty or injustice!

I agree with you completely TB.  Social divides, poverty, and injustice are all heart problems.  No law can change the selfish, sinful nature of the human heart.  Only the Gospel can do that but the Gospel is ineffective to a people that know do not understand grace because it has been labeled the worst of all evils--liberalism.

I hasten to say that in our so called social justice type ministries, the Gospel is at the forefront...we are not interested in simply making people more comfortable on the road to hell!

I can say AMEN to this statement without reservation.  I am also aware that a demonstration of grace makes the Gospel far more believable to people who feel their struggles are being ignored and their efforts to rise above their circumstances are belittled.

TB I applaud the efforts of the people in your church to make a real difference and to show the grace of God in a way that can be recognized.  Unfortunately in the deep south of Louisiana where I live this is not happening.  It may be due in part to the fact that the African-american voice is silent in IFB churches unless you count the chatter of bus kids.  I am encouraged by your post.  It shows that people are realizing that the problem is not that lost people are acting lost but that Christians are not acting Christ-like.  Your post also shows the danger of painting the rural project and urban jungle dwellers with a broad brush.  Just as in the IFB and other churches things might not be as they appear and we will only know the truth when we listen to each other talk and trust that we are telling each other the truth.

Grace and peace TB.

 

[rsc2a]

Tarheel Baptist:
And equality in the culture always means shared poverty...

rsc2a:
Not necessarily.


I would say that, in practice, that has been the result.
I don't know of a social experiment since the Book of Acts that hasn't ended in shared poverty...USSR, Cuba and
N. Korea to name the most recent. China seems to be 'seeing the light' and moving toward capitalism....not saying it's a panacea but better than the alternatives!

Is America a richer or poorer country as a result of the end of legalized racism (and I am not speaking about material wealth)?

 

[graceandtruth]

rsc2a:

Is America a richer or poorer country as a result of the end of legalized racism (and I am not speaking about material wealth)?

I would say we are much richer.  We are richer because we can have honest dialogues like we have been having across the glass walls of ethnicity.  We are richer because we can have genuine friendships which are only possible when people see themselves as equals.  We are richer because the fall of legalized racism be it slavery or Jim Crow prevents us from really getting to know each other and benefiting from the diversity--of gifts, of views, of perspectives, of solutions, etc.-- that we bring to the table in the public forum and in the local congregations.  We are richer because we now have an opportunity to reflect the kingdom of God in America as it is in heaven through people of every tribe, tongue, kindred, and nation worshipping and serving God together.  Few nations have the ethnic diversity that makes this a possibility.

Hey, I think I am starting to catch on to this quote thing!    Now I have to remember that smilies are not available in edit.  :-( 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Tarheel Baptist:
And equality in the culture always means shared poverty...

rsc2a:
Not necessarily.


I would say that, in practice, that has been the result.
I don't know of a social experiment since the Book of Acts that hasn't ended in shared poverty...USSR, Cuba and
N. Korea to name the most recent. China seems to be 'seeing the light' and moving toward capitalism....not saying it's a panacea but better than the alternatives!

Is America a richer or poorer country as a result of the end of legalized racism (and I am not speaking about material wealth)?

I would distinguish between racial, gender (male/female) equality and social and economic equality. I certainly agree that racism is sin....but racial equality doesn't insure economic or social status equality. I guess we weren't on the same page of the dictionary.