Woke Up to This

[brainisengaged]

Binaca Chugger, I wondered the same thing. Then I remembered his first wife died, not toooo terribly long ago. This is pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps he (sadly, foolishly, trustingly) invested the life insurance proceeds?

 

[bgwilkinson]

Binaca Chugger, I wondered the same thing. Then I remembered his first wife died, not toooo terribly long ago. This is pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps he (sadly, foolishly, trustingly) invested the life insurance proceeds?

Yes you are correct, partial proceeds from the death benefit.

People who don't earn their money have a hard time keeping it.

"Easy come, easy go". The time proven axiom.

 

[sword]

I guess I would find this more believable if they had sued Schaap and the main guy, or maybe even the deacons who allowed Schaap to go down this path, but the church?  This sounds like they are merely going after an organization with money, and washes any nobility aspect away.

Yes! My thought was that the ones responsible are long gone.

I disagree here. If you decide to give your all your money to one single individual to manage then you are responsible. Thom has been a very shady individual since I first met him 30 years ago. When he rose to prominence at fbch with his nose up schaaps behind, I asked several people who had been at fbch all their lives how Thom made his money and how he became such a financial guru. Nobody knew. You could have googled his name and enough yellow flags would have been raised to cause you to back off.
Unfortunately, this kind of thing has been going on in churches ever since Leviticus built the ark and I am sure it will continue.

My first thought is to agree with Walt here. Schapp & Kimmel are to blame.

But if you stop to think about it Kimmel was employed by the church as a finance guy. Schapp was in his pastoral capacity and even in his office when he recommended people put their money with Kimmel. He was profiting from every transaction but he did it as part of the ministry..The deacons allowed it to happen and just as the board of directors speak for a company so did these men. The leaders of the church allowed this to go on as part of the ministry of the church. Schapp even talked other pastor's into letting Kimmel pitch is scheme to their churches. When bad decisions are made, and a company is sued, the employees and stockholders pay the bill. Sadly this is the case here.

Caveat Emptor. may apply here, but it is not a legal defense..FBCH does have some culpability here.

 

[redhead]

It may seem like people are gullible to fall for these types of schemes, or perhaps they "deserve" to be taken advantage of for being stupid. However, the  church holds a unique position of authority over people. In many ways it brainwashes even the best of people into doing things they wouldn't ordinarily do. As a missionary, perhaps he was persuaded that this was his path to retirement.  It is sad to see people post things implying that it was his fault. The church (as a whole, not the individuals) is corrupt. I hope this lawsuit puts them out of business.

 

[Gonefishin]

I guess I would find this more believable if they had sued Schaap and the main guy, or maybe even the deacons who allowed Schaap to go down this path, but the church?  This sounds like they are merely going after an organization with money, and washes any nobility aspect away.

Yes! My thought was that the ones responsible are long gone.

I disagree here. If you decide to give your all your money to one single individual to manage then you are responsible. Thom has been a very shady individual since I first met him 30 years ago. When he rose to prominence at fbch with his nose up schaaps behind, I asked several people who had been at fbch all their lives how Thom made his money and how he became such a financial guru. Nobody knew. You could have googled his name and enough yellow flags would have been raised to cause you to back off.
Unfortunately, this kind of thing has been going on in churches ever since Leviticus built the ark and I am sure it will continue.

My first thought is to agree with Walt here. Schapp & Kimmel are to blame.

But if you stop to think about it Kimmel was employed by the church as a finance guy. Schapp was in his pastoral capacity and even in his office when he recommended people put their money with Kimmel. He was profiting from every transaction but he did it as part of the ministry..The deacons allowed it to happen and just as the board of directors speak for a company so did these men. The leaders of the church allowed this to go on as part of the ministry of the church. Schapp even talked other pastor's into letting Kimmel pitch is scheme to their churches. When bad decisions are made, and a company is sued, the employees and stockholders pay the bill. Sadly this is the case here.

Caveat Emptor. may apply here, but it is not a legal defense..FBCH does have some culpability here.

If you grew up at this Corporation you have watched people do some pretty crazy stuff.  This is one of them.  Usually the people who fell for stuff like this were part of those who moved to the area to be near the great Dr. Hyles or the great Dr. Schaap.  Yes these people should have never given all of their money to one person. Yes, these people should have googled Thumb Kimmel or Jack polish my shaft Schaap. However if you grew up at this Corporation you would have seen many people give total control of their lives to the pastor or his representatives.  Look at how many people were moved to another ministry job because the man of gawd wanted it. Look at how many people moved to another country, continent, or to the other side of the world because the man of gawd wanted them to. This scam is just another notch on the belt for Thumb Kimmel and Jack Schaap.  It is a cultural problem.  You can't change the culture unless you change the people running the Corporation.  You can't possibly think that the CFO and COO didn't know what was going on.  As a corporation I feel they are liable for what  was going on behind closed doors.  It is sad that as a Corporation they are consistently hurting the name of Christ.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Binaca Chugger, I wondered the same thing. Then I remembered his first wife died, not toooo terribly long ago. This is pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps he (sadly, foolishly, trustingly) invested the life insurance proceeds?

Yes you are correct, partial proceeds from the death benefit.

People who don't earn their money have a hard time keeping it.

"Easy come, easy go". The time proven axiom.

Hold on, pal. 

I have no idea who Elwell is and I have no knowledge of him personally. 

That stated.  Many church planters, missionaries and pastoral staff work incredibly hard, but never get paid with money for their work.  As I have worked in ministry, I have worked incredibly hard.  I have never had much cash that I could get my hands on - ever - in my life.  Some of us have different goals in life that don't involve cash and the American dream.

For someone to claim to be a missionary and have $200k laying around seems a little amiss to me.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

FWIW:  Thom Kimmel came to a church where I was serving in 1998 to make this pitch about investing.  He was traveling and promoting and selling his scheme before Schaap ever became the MOG in chief.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Binaca Chugger, I wondered the same thing. Then I remembered his first wife died, not toooo terribly long ago. This is pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps he (sadly, foolishly, trustingly) invested the life insurance proceeds?

Yes you are correct, partial proceeds from the death benefit.

People who don't earn their money have a hard time keeping it.

"Easy come, easy go". The time proven axiom.

Hold on, pal. 

I have no idea who Elwell is and I have no knowledge of him personally. 

That stated.  Many church planters, missionaries and pastoral staff work incredibly hard, but never get paid with money for their work.  As I have worked in ministry, I have worked incredibly hard.  I have never had much cash that I could get my hands on - ever - in my life.  Some of us have different goals in life that don't involve cash and the American dream.

For someone to claim to be a missionary and have $200k laying around seems a little amiss to me.

He got the money legitimately from the proceeds of an insurance policy on his wife's life, to him it was a windfall that he did not work to earn. His wife had to die for him to get it.

 

[bgwilkinson]

FWIW:  Thom Kimmel came to a church where I was serving in 1998 to make this pitch about investing.  He was traveling and promoting and selling his scheme before Schaap ever became the MOG in chief.

Yes Thom was Bro. Hyles toady before he switch to Scahap.
Thom knew where to get the names of pastors of churches where he could pitch his wares.
Bro. Hyles gave him all his speaking contacts.
Thom operated under Bro. Hyles blessing and consent.
Just one more malignant cancer of Bro. Hyles legacy.

 

[Walt]

As others have stated, the church promoted this scandal.  The church should be seeking means by which to at least give partial reimbursements.  The church as an organization is guilty.  As another pointed out, just because someone claims the name Christian, doesn't mean that he is a Christian.  Some of these people are just evil and pretend to be that which they are not so that they can guilt others into not mandating a punishment upon their crime.

I don't know if the "church" is guilty of promoting the scandal; certainly some people in the church were guilty of making profit by receiving kickbacks.  Perhaps the church is a victim.

Sue the evil people, but not the church body.

 

[BALAAM]

This is a home missionary going after the organization he is a part of.

...at the risk of pointing out the obvious:

1 Corinthians 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

There may be another factor here:

Bro. Hyles advised people, on occasion, to sue the church or college.
He said that you weren't suing your brother, but rather utilizing the only path to access the insurance $.



earnestly contend

Yes he did say those things, but as we now know, all to well, he was very very wrong on many things.

Kimmel was a serious problem for sure and the law suite may be his only way for Joe to recoup his funds.

I sure can see it from Joe's side. I surely do empathize with him.

He is doing what my dad did for almost 20 years, however my dad supported us with profits from his businesses.

The suite is against the church corporation. The body of Christ, the congregation, is not the corporation.

The corporation is the holding company that owns all the assets and collects all the necessary taxes for the state to stay

in compliance with Federal law.

I believe this was necessary for him to get the insurance to kick in.

I in no way blame him or hold it against him, he is the innocent victim.

He is NOt an innocent victim. He was a total idiot who got what he deserved. "Well, my preacher told me to do this and I always listen to my preacher" is his only stupid defense.

 

[BALAAM]

These people could have been stopped and bought magic beans and blamed someone else. (in case you have never read jack and the beanstalk)

 

[BALAAM]

If someone saw this guys wife wearing pants there would be hell to pay from fbmi and fbch! But blatant disregard for biblical principles seems to be no big deal. After all, there is insurance for my stupidity, someone else should pay for my poor health because I am obese, etc. etc.  No sympathy here !

 

[WESLEY]

As of today, his April 2016 prayer letter, "Busy in the Lord's Work" is still on FBMI's website... Does anyone know if FBCH is dropping him as a missionary?

Also, doesn't it say in the constitution that a member can't sue the church?

 

[bgwilkinson]

You are correct. You are automatically removed as a member.

 

[redhead]

He is NOt an innocent victim. He was a total idiot who got what he deserved. "Well, my preacher told me to do this and I always listen to my preacher" is his only stupid defense.
[/quote]

Yeah- kind of like all those people who pay thousands of dollars for a degree from an unaccredited college and then complain about not being able to find a job because the diploma is worthless.

 

[RAIDER]

He is NOt an innocent victim. He was a total idiot who got what he deserved. "Well, my preacher told me to do this and I always listen to my preacher" is his only stupid defense.

Yeah- kind of like all those people who pay thousands of dollars for a degree from an unaccredited college and then complain about not being able to find a job because the diploma is worthless.
[/quote]

I have my HAC degree.  It helped me get the job that I have had for 20 years.  It has paid great dividends through the years.

 

[qwerty]

I have my HAC degree.  It helped me get the job that I have had for 20 years.  It has paid great dividends through the years.

Same here. Have had zero issues even with acceptance for continuing education. Seems like a good excuse for some folks though.

 

[RAIDER]

I have my HAC degree.  It helped me get the job that I have had for 20 years.  It has paid great dividends through the years.

Same here. Have had zero issues even with acceptance for continuing education. Seems like a good excuse for some folks though.

The usual "tossing out the baby with the bathwater".

 

[prophet]

I have my HAC degree.  It helped me get the job that I have had for 20 years.  It has paid great dividends through the years.

Same here. Have had zero issues even with acceptance for continuing education. Seems like a good excuse for some folks though.

The job I worked through college kept asking me when I was graduating.
They had a policy that mid-level mgt. had to have a Bach. Deg.
They had promoted me as far as legally allowed.

I turned it down, because that wasn't my purpose in life.
But, they never cared about accreditation.

If I was in a field were my education pedigree mattered, I wouldn't have gone to HAC.

People make choices.
Some allow others to make their choices.
Some are part of a cult, and don't know better, and I don't blame them.

But, if you were a grown man, and came to HAC of your own volition, and want to blame it cuz you're a flop...
I got news for ya....you were a flop before you came.

earnestly contend