What shouldn't the Church use tithe money for?

[Binaca Chugger]

I don't mind the church having facilities to use for the membership or facilities to use for outreach.  I don't mind a salary for a full time staff. 

However, churches often begin using funds for gluttony rather than ministry.  Not talking about just over-eating here.  The pastor should not live highly above the average church member.  The church does need to be able to minister to others, and funding greatly helps with the ability to minister.  This funding should come from the local church membership.  But, when funding begins to be diverted from ministry to luxury, I see a problem.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What shouldn't the Church use tithe money for?

1. Mortgages
2. Building funds
3. Property maintenance
4. Utilities
5. Employee salaries and benefits
6. Most everything the church currently spends money on to make itself self-operating.

Further still - should a Church even allow itself to be in debt?

If the church was not an organization, it probably could not even accrue debt.

Frank Viola in his Reimagining Church gives a statistic from the Barna Group that shows that Americans spend between $9-7 Billion (yes, with a "B") annually just in mortgages and debt.

What would Jesus do with that money? What should we do with that money?

Imagine if all the churches were to use that money to help struggling church families, support foreign missionaries and projects, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, assist the unemployed, give medical support to the elderly and poor who cannot afford medicine, etc.

Imagine if the church actually cared about those who Jesus cared for rather than care about "stuff"...

I hear this flawed, bogus argument regularly.

I have interacted with spiritual, caring Pastors of house and or smaller churches who make the same bogus argument...we don't have overhead, we help the poor and unfortunate. Now IF you want more $$$ to go to the poor and unfortunate, larger ministries do exactly that.

If I recall, the small church pastor donated a number of computers to a missionary, because they had low overhead, they could do so. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT....the Pastor is a dedicated man of God that I greatly respect.
It just happened that...at that point in time...our church had dedicated a church building and library for a Christian School on the mission field that our church had built...over a period of 2 years.

The mortgage, salaries and other 'wasteful spending' helped our ministry to grow, pool our money and give MORE!

We also have a food ministry...have for years....and serve over 5200 families every year with food, utility bills, etc....BECAUSE we have the upkeep and overhead, we are able to reach people, pool our money, provide funds a nod labor for the poor, underprivileged and missions.

We have more, cost more to operate, but GIVE MORE to the people you are concerned about....IF that's your real concern. (And in YOUR case it probably is)

 

[16KJV11]

I guess I am missing the point somehow. Why are buildings bad? Where do all these people meet to plan where they will do all these ministry efforts? Who coordinates these activities and how do we get ahold of them or they us? How does this organic, unmanaged group get anything done? How do we get this single mindedness without a place and a leader?

FWIW it sounds like the silliness of the hippies back in the day.

The church I am currently attending meets in a school. I know another church that meets at a community center and "gives back" what they would have spent on a building to the community. Their plan is to divide into two services when they get too large for the center then split off and form another church in another community when they start getting too big for that to work.

When I started the church I pastor now, we met in a nice hotel, cost about $800 - 1200 a month.  Then we moved into a Christian school so we could have a little more stability, cost 1400 to 1800 a month since we used the facilities a little more.
When we merged with a church to form 1 new church, I now pastor a church where the facilities have been paid off  for more than a century.
Maybe we should humble ourselves and move to a 'community center'.  This place does require maintenance and some upgrades.  The 30 year old hallway carpet 'was' getting a bit black and slick, the roof 'was' about ready to collapse when we merged, that cost 26K,  the auditorium carpet 'was' split at all the seams when we merged and the flooring downstairs was 50's vintage, loose and cracking. 
The outside of the building hadn't been painted in over 20 years and could be camouflaged to hide amongst the terrain so we had to paint it.
The inside hadn't seen a paint brush since 1974 when the entire inside was 'renovated'.
All cost 'money'.
In our humility, we should have neglected all this and given all the money to the poor.
In fact, we should have let the roof fall in and moved out to a tent in the parking lot!
But, we're too vain!
Just think of all the people we could have fed!

 

[kaba]

WHAT SHOULD A CHURCH USE TITHE MONEY FOR:

missionaries
salaries
operating expenses
church building
special programs
sunday school material
vbs material
awana material
teen activities
senior citizen activities
benevolent funds
church members in need
community members in need

We have a great Pastor and intelligent Deacons. I trust them fully to handle the money wisely!

 

[lnf]

Kaba, I'm so glad to hear of someone that is happy with the way their church is spending the funds.  You see, I do that for my church...and I take it very seriously.

 

[Recovering IFB]

We have a great Pastor and intelligent Deacons. I trust them fully to handle the money wisely!

Boy, if you we're in my assembly,  I would call your discernment into question.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

We have a great Pastor and intelligent Deacons. I trust them fully to handle the money wisely!

Boy, if you we're in my assembly,  I would call your discernment into question.

If I were in your assembly...the one who's leadership can't be trusted, I'd find another assembly.

 

[Recovering IFB]

We have a great Pastor and intelligent Deacons. I trust them fully to handle the money wisely!

Boy, if you we're in my assembly,  I would call your discernment into question.

If I were in your assembly...the one who's leadership can't be trusted, I'd find another assembly.

You mean holding people accountable to their position? You would probably throw me out of your assembly after one if your "business meetings" after I questioned the leadership, the same ones who are used to running rhings to go unchecked.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

A church should not pay for:

Swanky deacons and staff retreats at fancy hotels/spa (those are two separate retreats BTW)

Travel expenses for Pastor so he can travel to Australia, Hawaii, and other fun places to preach...and receive love offerings. These trips often got extended for vacations. Should the church be paying for people to escort him too?

For the publishing of the pastor's and other staff member's books. Does the church also get to keep the profits? Is the church paid back for these expenses? How about the volunteer work involved?

For a personal assistant who will make sure college students (or members) mow the pastor's lawn, clean his built in pool, his new model church provided vehicle has maintenance done, and that someone will clean and maintain his  4000 sq ft house.

The cost of bringing in political speakers...and other political functions.

 

[BALAAM]

They shouldn't receive the "tithe" to start with. Its funny how they love to change where the tithe was required to be sent. God never changed it. The last command he gave concerning the tithe..... was to bring it into the "storehouse". We all know exactly what that "storehouse" was.....

Its no longer around. Hasn't been in almost two thousand years. God never said one word about changing where the tithe should be given. Not one word.

Every pastor/teacher that teaches "tithing" to the local church.... is adding to what God said. They pervert the teaching.

It is interesting to note that when the first temple was destroyed, God no longer required the tithe. If he did, then prove it. It wasn't till Nehemiah chapter 10 that the tithe was even mentioned again.

Most of the people did not bring their tithes to the storehouse anyway. They brought them to the Levitical cities and the Levites were the ones to bring the best 10% of the tithe to the storehouse.  The "storehouse" was not big enough or equipped enough to handle all of the tithe from the people.  To The Best of My Understanding of course!

 

[christundivided]

They shouldn't receive the "tithe" to start with. Its funny how they love to change where the tithe was required to be sent. God never changed it. The last command he gave concerning the tithe..... was to bring it into the "storehouse". We all know exactly what that "storehouse" was.....

Its no longer around. Hasn't been in almost two thousand years. God never said one word about changing where the tithe should be given. Not one word.

Every pastor/teacher that teaches "tithing" to the local church.... is adding to what God said. They pervert the teaching.

It is interesting to note that when the first temple was destroyed, God no longer required the tithe. If he did, then prove it. It wasn't till Nehemiah chapter 10 that the tithe was even mentioned again.

Most of the people did not bring their tithes to the storehouse anyway. They brought them to the Levitical cities and the Levites were the ones to bring the best 10% of the tithe to the storehouse.  The "storehouse" was not big enough or equipped enough to handle all of the tithe from the people.  To The Best of My Understanding of course!

By all means. Share your evidence?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

We have a great Pastor and intelligent Deacons. I trust them fully to handle the money wisely!

Boy, if you we're in my assembly,  I would call your discernment into question.

If I were in your assembly...the one who's leadership can't be trusted, I'd find another assembly.

You mean holding people accountable to their position? You would probably throw me out of your assembly after one if your "business meetings" after I questioned the leadership, the same ones who are used to running rhings to go unchecked.

We only have one business meeting per year....the Sunday you're on vacation, so that wouldn't be a problem.

We have a budget....prepared by the Finance, Missions Committees who present it to the Pastors and Deacons who question items or recommend changes, which may or may not be adopted. The final product is approved by the congregation at our annual (only) scheduled business meeting. Funds are disbursed by a financial secretary who can't sign the checks she writes. Appointed members of he Finance Cmtee. sign the checks. Quarterly financial statements are audited by the Finance Cmtee. - 5 men and 2 ladies are on that committee. Pastors do not and cannot write or sign checks.

Any item that is not in the budget, no matter how big or how small cannot be purchased or spent without the approval of the congregation...which requires a called business meeting. That seldom happens.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

From the tithing thread, I assume some here don't think the church should do anything with their money....because if everyone were like them the church wouldn't have any money.....  :

 

[Timothy]

From the tithing thread, I assume some here don't think the church should do anything with their money....because if everyone were like them the church wouldn't have any money.....  :

To be against tithing isn't to be against giving to your local Church.

 

[Biker]

What shouldn't the Church use tithe money for?

1. Mortgages
2. Building funds
3. Property maintenance
4. Utilities
5. Employee salaries and benefits
6. Most everything the church currently spends money on to make itself self-operating.

Further still - should a Church even allow itself to be in debt?

If the church was not an organization, it probably could not even accrue debt.

Frank Viola in his Reimagining Church gives a statistic from the Barna Group that shows that Americans spend between $9-7 Billion (yes, with a "B") annually just in mortgages and debt.

What would Jesus do with that money? What should we do with that money?

Imagine if all the churches were to use that money to help struggling church families, support foreign missionaries and projects, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, assist the unemployed, give medical support to the elderly and poor who cannot afford medicine, etc.

Imagine if the church actually cared about those who Jesus cared for rather than care about "stuff"...

I hear this flawed, bogus argument regularly.

I have interacted with spiritual, caring Pastors of house and or smaller churches who make the same bogus argument...we don't have overhead, we help the poor and unfortunate. Now IF you want more $$$ to go to the poor and unfortunate, larger ministries do exactly that.

If I recall, the small church pastor donated a number of computers to a missionary, because they had low overhead, they could do so. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT....the Pastor is a dedicated man of God that I greatly respect.
It just happened that...at that point in time...our church had dedicated a church building and library for a Christian School on the mission field that our church had built...over a period of 2 years.

The mortgage, salaries and other 'wasteful spending' helped our ministry to grow, pool our money and give MORE!

We also have a food ministry...have for years....and serve over 5200 families every year with food, utility bills, etc....BECAUSE we have the upkeep and overhead, we are able to reach people, pool our money, provide funds a nod labor for the poor, underprivileged and missions.

We have more, cost more to operate, but GIVE MORE to the people you are concerned about....IF that's your real concern. (And in YOUR case it probably is)

Kudos for using your resources wisely! 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What shouldn't the Church use tithe money for?

1. Mortgages
2. Building funds
3. Property maintenance
4. Utilities
5. Employee salaries and benefits
6. Most everything the church currently spends money on to make itself self-operating.

Further still - should a Church even allow itself to be in debt?

If the church was not an organization, it probably could not even accrue debt.

Frank Viola in his Reimagining Church gives a statistic from the Barna Group that shows that Americans spend between $9-7 Billion (yes, with a "B") annually just in mortgages and debt.

What would Jesus do with that money? What should we do with that money?

Imagine if all the churches were to use that money to help struggling church families, support foreign missionaries and projects, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, assist the unemployed, give medical support to the elderly and poor who cannot afford medicine, etc.

Imagine if the church actually cared about those who Jesus cared for rather than care about "stuff"...

I hear this flawed, bogus argument regularly.

I have interacted with spiritual, caring Pastors of house and or smaller churches who make the same bogus argument...we don't have overhead, we help the poor and unfortunate. Now IF you want more $$$ to go to the poor and unfortunate, larger ministries do exactly that.

If I recall, the small church pastor donated a number of computers to a missionary, because they had low overhead, they could do so. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT....the Pastor is a dedicated man of God that I greatly respect.
It just happened that...at that point in time...our church had dedicated a church building and library for a Christian School on the mission field that our church had built...over a period of 2 years.

The mortgage, salaries and other 'wasteful spending' helped our ministry to grow, pool our money and give MORE!

We also have a food ministry...have for years....and serve over 5200 families every year with food, utility bills, etc....BECAUSE we have the upkeep and overhead, we are able to reach people, pool our money, provide funds a nod labor for the poor, underprivileged and missions.

We have more, cost more to operate, but GIVE MORE to the people you are concerned about....IF that's your real concern. (And in YOUR case it probably is)

I'd like to hear from the 'church wastes money on buildings and budgets' posters if and how my argument/logic is flawed.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

What shouldn't the Church use tithe money for?

1. Mortgages
2. Building funds
3. Property maintenance
4. Utilities
5. Employee salaries and benefits
6. Most everything the church currently spends money on to make itself self-operating.

Further still - should a Church even allow itself to be in debt?

If the church was not an organization, it probably could not even accrue debt.

Frank Viola in his Reimagining Church gives a statistic from the Barna Group that shows that Americans spend between $9-7 Billion (yes, with a "B") annually just in mortgages and debt.

What would Jesus do with that money? What should we do with that money?

Imagine if all the churches were to use that money to help struggling church families, support foreign missionaries and projects, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, assist the unemployed, give medical support to the elderly and poor who cannot afford medicine, etc.

Imagine if the church actually cared about those who Jesus cared for rather than care about "stuff"...

I hear this flawed, bogus argument regularly.

I have interacted with spiritual, caring Pastors of house and or smaller churches who make the same bogus argument...we don't have overhead, we help the poor and unfortunate. Now IF you want more $$$ to go to the poor and unfortunate, larger ministries do exactly that.

If I recall, the small church pastor donated a number of computers to a missionary, because they had low overhead, they could do so. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT....the Pastor is a dedicated man of God that I greatly respect.
It just happened that...at that point in time...our church had dedicated a church building and library for a Christian School on the mission field that our church had built...over a period of 2 years.

The mortgage, salaries and other 'wasteful spending' helped our ministry to grow, pool our money and give MORE!

We also have a food ministry...have for years....and serve over 5200 families every year with food, utility bills, etc....BECAUSE we have the upkeep and overhead, we are able to reach people, pool our money, provide funds a nod labor for the poor, underprivileged and missions.

We have more, cost more to operate, but GIVE MORE to the people you are concerned about....IF that's your real concern. (And in YOUR case it probably is)

I'd like to hear from the 'church wastes money on buildings and budgets' posters if and how my argument/logic is flawed.

In essence this: I don't believe the church was set up to be an organization so any funding that goes toward the benefits of a corporate entity is not what Jesus had in mind when He established the church. There was a reason He did not want the disciples to be called "Rabbi", for it showed authority of "man over man" instead of "Christ over church".

But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd (pastor).

I think Viola puts my thoughts into words when he stated in Pagan Christianity?:

[T]he Protestant order of worship represses mutual participation and the growth of Christian community. It puts a choke hold on the functioning of the body of Christ by silencing its members. There is absolutely no room for anyone to give a word of exhortation, share an insight, start or introduce  a song, or spontaneously lead a prayer. You are forced to be a muted, staid pewholder! You are prevented from being enriched by the other members of the body as well as being able to enrich them yourself...[T]he Protestant order of worship strangles the headship of Jesus Christ. The entire service is directed to one person. You are limited to the knowledge, gifting and experience of one member of the body--the pastor. Where is the freedom for our Lord Jesus to speak through His body at will? Where in the liturgy may God give a brother or sister a word to share with the whole congregation? The order of worship allows for no such thing. Jesus Christ has no freedom to express Himself through His body at His discretion. He too is rendered a passive spectator.

Those words express my thoughts BEFORE I had read the book.

Anyway, funding that goes to support such an organization that is structured opposed to the teachings of Christ cannot be anything BUT flawed. I wouldn't expect any clergyman to ever agree with my position because if they believed what Jesus actually taught, they would be convicted to give up their occupation.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

What shouldn't the Church use tithe money for?

1. Mortgages
2. Building funds
3. Property maintenance
4. Utilities
5. Employee salaries and benefits
6. Most everything the church currently spends money on to make itself self-operating.

Further still - should a Church even allow itself to be in debt?

If the church was not an organization, it probably could not even accrue debt.

Frank Viola in his Reimagining Church gives a statistic from the Barna Group that shows that Americans spend between $9-7 Billion (yes, with a "B") annually just in mortgages and debt.

What would Jesus do with that money? What should we do with that money?

Imagine if all the churches were to use that money to help struggling church families, support foreign missionaries and projects, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, assist the unemployed, give medical support to the elderly and poor who cannot afford medicine, etc.

Imagine if the church actually cared about those who Jesus cared for rather than care about "stuff"...

I hear this flawed, bogus argument regularly.

I have interacted with spiritual, caring Pastors of house and or smaller churches who make the same bogus argument...we don't have overhead, we help the poor and unfortunate. Now IF you want more $$$ to go to the poor and unfortunate, larger ministries do exactly that.

If I recall, the small church pastor donated a number of computers to a missionary, because they had low overhead, they could do so. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT....the Pastor is a dedicated man of God that I greatly respect.
It just happened that...at that point in time...our church had dedicated a church building and library for a Christian School on the mission field that our church had built...over a period of 2 years.

The mortgage, salaries and other 'wasteful spending' helped our ministry to grow, pool our money and give MORE!

We also have a food ministry...have for years....and serve over 5200 families every year with food, utility bills, etc....BECAUSE we have the upkeep and overhead, we are able to reach people, pool our money, provide funds a nod labor for the poor, underprivileged and missions.

We have more, cost more to operate, but GIVE MORE to the people you are concerned about....IF that's your real concern. (And in YOUR case it probably is)

I'd like to hear from the 'church wastes money on buildings and budgets' posters if and how my argument/logic is flawed.

In essence this: I don't believe the church was set up to be an organization so any funding that goes toward the benefits of a corporate entity is not what Jesus had in mind when He established the church. There was a reason He did not want the disciples to be called "Rabbi", for it showed authority of "man over man" instead of "Christ over church".

But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd (pastor).

I think Viola puts my thoughts into words when he stated in Pagan Christianity?:

[T]he Protestant order of worship represses mutual participation and the growth of Christian community. It puts a choke hold on the functioning of the body of Christ by silencing its members. There is absolutely no room for anyone to give a word of exhortation, share an insight, start or introduce  a song, or spontaneously lead a prayer. You are forced to be a muted, staid pewholder! You are prevented from being enriched by the other members of the body as well as being able to enrich them yourself...[T]he Protestant order of worship strangles the headship of Jesus Christ. The entire service is directed to one person. You are limited to the knowledge, gifting and experience of one member of the body--the pastor. Where is the freedom for our Lord Jesus to speak through His body at will? Where in the liturgy may God give a brother or sister a word to share with the whole congregation? The order of worship allows for no such thing. Jesus Christ has no freedom to express Himself through His body at His discretion. He too is rendered a passive spectator.

Those words express my thoughts BEFORE I had read the book.

Anyway, funding that goes to support such an organization that is structured opposed to the teachings of Christ cannot be anything BUT flawed. I wouldn't expect any clergyman to ever agree with my position because if they believed what Jesus actually taught, they would be convicted to give up their occupation.

So, you're arguing that Jesus didn't want their to be a church...IMHO, that's a moot point ( and a Biblically ludicrious argument, IMO).

This is what you said that I responded to:

Smellin:
Imagine if all the churches were to use that money to help struggling church families, support foreign missionaries and projects, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, assist the unemployed, give medical support to the elderly and poor who cannot afford medicine, etc.

Imagine if the church actually cared about those who Jesus cared for rather than care about "stuff"...

A church that has an organization, structure etc. gives MORE to what you say you're concerned about.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So, you're arguing that Jesus didn't want their to be a church...IMHO, that's a moot point ( and a Biblically ludicrious argument, IMO).


That is not what I said, yet it IS what I said. Jesus DID want there to be a church but not made into an organization.

A church that has an organization, structure etc. gives MORE to what you say you're concerned about.


Not only is that contrary to the teachings of Jesus, it is not true. Take a church of 500 members. Break that into 20 "house" congregations of 25 members each. Though the giving may not be geared toward the same source (say, Missionary Johnson), their giving would still be expected and without building expenses, more could be given toward local, ministering groups or though "personal contact" outside any organization. That would take the $200 that the big church would normally give to Missionary Johnson and it would be distributed as Christ leads each of the congregation. Christ has more control as to who will receive what through disbursement by spreading the giving around rather than 500 people making a decision to commit to monthly support of one person. And that $2000 a month for mortgage/utilities would be monies that each group could gear toward SPECIFIC need of one within the congregation or outside the congregation.

It is a "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" giving system, relying on how Jesus wants EACH SMALL GROUP to distribute. That would mean the Holy Spirit control and the way our churches are set up, naturally they limit His control.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Not only is that contrary to the teachings of Jesus, it is not true. Take a church of 500 members. Break that into 20 "house" congregations of 25 members each. Though the giving may not be geared toward the same source (say, Missionary Johnson), their giving would still be expected and without building expenses, more could be given toward local, ministering groups or though "personal contact" outside any organization. That would take the $200 that the big church would normally give to Missionary Johnson and it would be distributed as Christ leads each of the congregation. Christ has more control as to who will receive what through disbursement by spreading the giving around rather than 500 people making a decision to commit to monthly support of one person. And that $2000 a month for mortgage/utilities would be monies that each group could gear toward SPECIFIC need of one within the congregation or outside the congregation.

It is a "fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants" giving system, relying on how Jesus wants EACH SMALL GROUP to distribute. That would mean the Holy Spirit control and the way our churches are set up, naturally they limit His control.

Illustration:

Suppose a group of people 20 was told by God to leave New York where they were and travel to Los Angeles. This group chose to take a plane instead of cars so they all get on a plane together and head out to LA. While enroute, suppose God then spoke to them telling them to go to Dallas, Omaha, Daytona, Portland and Denver as well because He has divine appointments for them in each of those cities. They can't jump the plane, reroute it, or move it away from its chartered course.

But this same group headed in a caravan of 5 cars of 4 people, they could all head to LA yet move to another destination that God has intended for them on the way. The nature of the small group listening to God brings about better mobility for God's service and gives God more servants the ability to move more quickly to where He wants them to be.