Were you born again as a young child? How old were you when you were saved?

[christundivided]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]lol, keep on posting nimrod.  I never once have said that salvation isn't multifaceted (regeneration, sanctification, glorification being the simple model), but whay I have said, and about which you've obfuscated, is that it happens in space and time.  There was a time on earth in which you were not born again, just like Nicodemus.

Not if you are among the elect.

So when were you "born again"?

Alayman's point was that even Pink saw that there is a beginning point to the progression of salvation.

I met a guy who claims he was regenerated in his mother's womb and never took a breath as an unbeliever. You are starting to remind me of him.

Oh rsc2a, if consistent, will be more extreme then your friend...he will say he was saved before he ever existed.
[/quote]

Don't you just love Ephesians 2?

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That's the last I say about it so as to not derail ALAYMAN's thread.

 

[subllibrm]

Oh rsc2a, if consistent, will be more extreme then your friend...he will say he was saved before he ever existed.

So his second birth was before his first birth. Got it.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]lol, keep on posting nimrod.  I never once have said that salvation isn't multifaceted (regeneration, sanctification, glorification being the simple model), but whay I have said, and about which you've obfuscated, is that it happens in space and time.  There was a time on earth in which you were not born again, just like Nicodemus.

Not if you are among the elect.

So when were you "born again"?

Alayman's point was that even Pink saw that there is a beginning point to the progression of salvation.

I met a guy who claims he was regenerated in his mother's womb and never took a breath as an unbeliever. You are starting to remind me of him.

Oh rsc2a, if consistent, will be more extreme then your friend...he will say he was saved before he ever existed.[/quote]

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...

 

[subllibrm]

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...

God is outside of time. You are not. I have no issue with being or claiming to be elect. But I also know that from the perspective of man in the context of time, there is a beginning of salvation. If not then the Ephesians 2 passage posted earlier makes no sense.

Let's put it another way. God saved you before the foundation of the world. When did you become aware/obedient? Or were you never "lost"? As the gentleman I referred to earlier claimed.

BTW do you believe you existed before the foundation of the world?

 

[T-Bone]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]lol, keep on posting nimrod.  I never once have said that salvation isn't multifaceted (regeneration, sanctification, glorification being the simple model), but whay I have said, and about which you've obfuscated, is that it happens in space and time.  There was a time on earth in which you were not born again, just like Nicodemus.

Not if you are among the elect.

So when were you "born again"?

Alayman's point was that even Pink saw that there is a beginning point to the progression of salvation.

I met a guy who claims he was regenerated in his mother's womb and never took a breath as an unbeliever. You are starting to remind me of him.

Oh rsc2a, if consistent, will be more extreme then your friend...he will say he was saved before he ever existed.

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...
[/quote]
God's choosing you does not equate that you were saved then...Your existence is at God's choosing too...that does not mean you existed before you existed. 

 

[subllibrm]

God's choosing you does not equate that you were saved then...Your existence is at God's choosing too...that does not mean you existed before you existed.

That is why I asked the question. He seems to believe that there was a pre-incarnate rsc2a.
An unknown eternity past. And he says Alayman has gnostic "secrets".

 

[rsc2a]

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...

God is outside of time. You are not. I have no issue with being or claiming to be elect. But I also know that from the perspective of man in the context of time, there is a beginning of salvation. If not then the Ephesians 2 passage posted earlier makes no sense.

Let's put it another way. God saved you before the foundation of the world. When did you become aware/obedient? Or were you never "lost"? As the gentleman I referred to earlier claimed.

It is as I explained before. It's a process, not a point in time. To use your Ephesians 2 example, in times past, I walked more according to the course of the world than I do today. In times future, I will walk less according to the course of the world than I do today.

[quote author=subllibrm]BTW do you believe you existed before the foundation of the world?[/quote]

I'm agnostic as to whether pre-existence, traducianism, or creationism is correct.

 

[christundivided]

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...

God is outside of time. You are not. I have no issue with being or claiming to be elect. But I also know that from the perspective of man in the context of time, there is a beginning of salvation. If not then the Ephesians 2 passage posted earlier makes no sense.

Let's put it another way. God saved you before the foundation of the world. When did you become aware/obedient? Or were you never "lost"? As the gentleman I referred to earlier claimed.

BTW do you believe you existed before the foundation of the world?

God is time. He is not outside of time. Time is a attribute of God. He can't not be "outside" His own personage. C. S. Lewis was a idiot.

 

[christundivided]

I'm agnostic as to whether pre-existence, traducianism, or creationism is correct.

FSSL should make a note of this. You're obviously being dishonest in your debate with him.

 

[T-Bone]

i was 8 years old....  one of my friends from school who sat next to me in class invited me to ride the bus to church with her on sunday... ..at that time my mom usually spent sunday mornings hung over or in a drunken stupor and wasn;t even aware of the world until sometime in the afternoon.....  so i generally did what i wanted to on the weekend mornings.... ...    but the first sunday i was supposed to go with my friend to church i ended up sitting at home waiting all morning and nobody ever came....  what my friend didn;t know when she invited was that the bus drivers would not go into the neighborhood where i lived.... ... but her parents didn;t allow her to go there either so it wasn;t that big a surprise... ... ... ...  on the next sunday i got up earier and walked to her house and rode the bus to church with her from there... .. .. 

i had been to many catholic church services but never to a baptist one ....  it was totally different... . but i guess what they had us in would have been a junior church service separate from the rest of the congregation..... it was all kids in a service led by adults.....  ...  i remember understanding most of what was said and also leaving to get back on the bus feeling as if i wanted to know more..... feeling as if i needed to know more..... .. while riding home my friend explained more of it to me and led me to Christ on the bus before we got to her house .....  then i stayed at her house for several hours that afternoon and we talked about it more .... read different scriptures from her Bible together..... .  ...  by the time i got home it was pretty late and my mom was already up and furious wanting to know where i had been.... .. i told her and she didn;t really seem to care.... but at least she stopped yelling about it.....  as soon as i could i went on a search through all the junk piles in the house and found a red Bible i had remembered seeing there..... it was a gideons bible (kjv)... probably stolen from a motel... and probably by one of my moms clientel and left at our house... ...  but from that moment on it became mine until i was given a much nicer Bible years later by my adopted family.... ... ....  between the time of being saved on that bus.... all the trauma that happened afterwards and then being rescued from my natural sisters house and joining the family i have now....  i read that gideons Bible completely through at least once and was then re reading my favorite parts of it when it got lost in the all turmoil and upheaval in the aftermath of what happened in my sisters house.....

there is a lot more i could write about all that .... about what it all meant to me and how reading what i did from it gave me not only a hunger to read more...  but also an assurance that the salvation God gave me on that bus when i was 8 years old was real and genuine......  ..  but that would turn into a very heavy novel... ..

Thank you for sharing and for bringing this thread back on line!  Blessings

 

[rsc2a]

I'm agnostic as to whether pre-existence, traducianism, or creationism is correct.

FSSL should make a note of this. You're obviously being dishonest in your debate with him.

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=220  :

 

[christundivided]

I'm agnostic as to whether pre-existence, traducianism, or creationism is correct.

FSSL should make a note of this. You're obviously being dishonest in your debate with him.

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=220  :

Are you really so ignorant as to not realize your beliefs in "Theistic evolution" force you beyond being "agnostic" concerning the origin of the soul? You're being dishonest. You're pretending you have a working systematic understanding of said beliefs and then you claim to be agnostic concerning a core part of said theology. You might not care, but don't pretend you're being honest.

 

[rsc2a]

I'm agnostic as to whether pre-existence, traducianism, or creationism is correct.

FSSL should make a note of this. You're obviously being dishonest in your debate with him.

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=220  :

Are you really so ignorant as to not realize your beliefs in "Theistic evolution" force you beyond being "agnostic" concerning the origin of the soul? You're being dishonest. You're pretending you have a working systematic understanding of said beliefs and then you claim to be agnostic concerning a core part of said theology. You might not care, but don't pretend you're being honest.

How in the world does my agnosticism towards when an individual is en-souled have anything to do with what I believe about the physical mechanism God used to create humanity?

 

[christundivided]

I'm agnostic as to whether pre-existence, traducianism, or creationism is correct.

FSSL should make a note of this. You're obviously being dishonest in your debate with him.

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=220  :

Are you really so ignorant as to not realize your beliefs in "Theistic evolution" force you beyond being "agnostic" concerning the origin of the soul? You're being dishonest. You're pretending you have a working systematic understanding of said beliefs and then you claim to be agnostic concerning a core part of said theology. You might not care, but don't pretend you're being honest.

How in the world does my agnosticism towards when an individual is en-souled have anything to do with what I believe about the physical mechanism God used to create humanity?

There you go. You really lose all credibility when you take such an approach. Then again, its common with Theistic Evolutionary theory. You really don't have a goal to make sense of anything. You just stand back and insert doubt and claim it can't be this and it can't be that. All the while, you have no idea what anything really is and you have no goal to establish such beliefs. You're like those mentioned in Ephesian 4:14. You have no anchor. You just drift or rather are driven around by every wind and wave of doctrine that comes along.

 

[HeDied4U]

Were you born again as a young child?

No. Grew up going to church (forced, imo) but considered myself an atheist.

How old were you when you were saved?

20.

 

[ALAYMAN]

...there is a lot more i could write about all that .... about what it all meant to me and how reading what i did from it gave me not only a hunger to read more...  but also an assurance that the salvation God gave me on that bus when i was 8 years old was real and genuine......  ..  but that would turn into a very heavy novel... ..

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your whole post about how God brought you to himself, and regarding the portion above, wouldn't mind if you took the time to tell us your "novel".

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]How in the world does my agnosticism towards when an individual is en-souled have anything to do with what I believe about the physical mechanism God used to create humanity?

There you go. You really lose all credibility when you take such an approach. Then again, its common with Theistic Evolutionary theory. You really don't have a goal to make sense of anything. You just stand back and insert doubt and claim it can't be this and it can't be that. All the while, you have no idea what anything really is and you have no goal to establish such beliefs. You're like those mentioned in Ephesian 4:14. You have no anchor. You just drift or rather are driven around by every wind and wave of doctrine that comes along.[/quote]

No really...what in the world do the two have anything to do with each other?

I could show you crazy smart conservative theologians who hold to YEC on various sides of the en-soulment issue and crazy smart conservative theologians who hold to some other creation scheme on various sides of the en-soulment issue.

The two issues in question (en-soulment and the "how" of creation) while related are not co-dependent. Personally, I think you just saw that I was agnostic towards soul creation, read  the term "creationism" and say "Gotcha!" because you didn't know the terminology...


....but I could be wrong.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Don't you just love Ephesians 2?

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

That is the very first Scripture that popped in my head, right before that of Nicodemus needing to be being born again, then a host of others, but it ain't worth the effort with him.

Regarding his claim that "before the foundation of the world" means the elect have always been saved (besides the verse you cited, and a host of others that deal with salvation in time and space for humanity), the choosing of God to salvation does not necessitate (even by a Calvinistic framework) that the effects of that choice occur at the time of God's choosing.  Repentance is a similar thought.  God's dealings in the OT with his people demanded repentance, and *if* they repented he claimed he would not judge/punish them but would rather spare them.  God knew what they'd choose before they did (and even ordained it per Calvinist theology) but He nonetheless gave them real choices, without coercing them.

 

[rsc2a]

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...

God is outside of time. You are not. I have no issue with being or claiming to be elect. But I also know that from the perspective of man in the context of time, there is a beginning of salvation. If not then the Ephesians 2 passage posted earlier makes no sense.

Let's put it another way. God saved you before the foundation of the world. When did you become aware/obedient? Or were you never "lost"? As the gentleman I referred to earlier claimed.

BTW do you believe you existed before the foundation of the world?

God is time. He is not outside of time. Time is a attribute of God. He can't not be "outside" His own personage. C. S. Lewis was a idiot.

This is pantheism, not Christianity.

 

[christundivided]

That is what the Bible teaches...

...even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him...

God is outside of time. You are not. I have no issue with being or claiming to be elect. But I also know that from the perspective of man in the context of time, there is a beginning of salvation. If not then the Ephesians 2 passage posted earlier makes no sense.

Let's put it another way. God saved you before the foundation of the world. When did you become aware/obedient? Or were you never "lost"? As the gentleman I referred to earlier claimed.

BTW do you believe you existed before the foundation of the world?

God is time. He is not outside of time. Time is a attribute of God. He can't not be "outside" His own personage. C. S. Lewis was a idiot.

This is pantheism, not Christianity.

I never gave you one reason to believe I support pantheism and C.S Lewis did not define Christianity.

Christ Himself said he is

"the beginning and I the end". Without time there is nothing but chaos. When I say "time" I am not particularly referencing a "measurement" of time. Time at its core is cause and effect. God is "cause" and "effect". He is the same through any measure of time. Eternity or the Eternal is not absence of time. Its is the immeasurable accumulation of time.