We're here, we're queer and we're coming for your children'

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Growing up, we were family friends with a family from church that had three sons. The middle son turned out to be gay. He was “different” from before he even hit puberty. The eldest son would be playing video games and the youngest son would be playing football or something similar, while the middle son wanted to bake cakes. We (young guys), knew he was gay before he was even old enough to have such thoughts. All three boys were raised by the same church-going parents under the same circumstances.

I tell that story to say that this example has long left an impression on me that we just don’t know everything. I understand that the Bible indicates homosexuality is wrong, and I don’t doubt that any more than having sexual relations outside of marriage is wrong. However, I do believe there are people who are born “wired” in that direction. There are also people who I believe have become of that persuasion as a result of some type of abuse or trauma, but again, going back to my church family example, the latter wouldn’t apply (at least I’d be 99.99% sure in that regard).

 

[AverageJoe]

To be honest, I don't really care who is homosexual and who isn't as long as they're not the "in your face" type of people. I can usually ge along with most people in person...and most of the time even on the internet...except for people like Aaron (right Ekkk???) Ekklesian and I clash occasionally...but,, it's usually in fun. Huk and I disagree at times, but, we still talk to each other. And Ray and I don't agree on a lot of stuff, but we're friends and have been on the net for years. I've got far too many relatives who are bi-sexual or homosexual to be worried about who is and who isn't. One thing I won't do, however, is call a man a woman, or a woman a man. If they don't like that, they can stick it in their ear! LOL

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Huk and I disagree at times, but, we still talk to each other.

I find that I agree with you 99% of the time. But then there’s that 1% of the time when you’re just dead wrong!

 

[AverageJoe]

You ain't too bad for a kid, Huk!!!! LOL

 

[Ransom]

A. Being gay is not a sin. (By this I mean sexual attraction to the same sex, not participating in the activity. The same would be true of a married man who is attracted to a woman who is not his wife—attraction itself is not a sin).

Not a sin, no--not if you mean a specific, sinful act. But it is sin: borne out of a corrupted and sinful nature. Homosexuality and idolatry are the two specific sins Paul singles out to show how fallen man is disordered in his thinking. He's quite clear that both the acts ("men committing shameless acts with men", Rom. 1:26) and the desire ("men ... were consumed with passion for one another," ditto) are sinful.

B. Engaging in gay sex is a sin.

No argument there.

C. Gay sex and marriage should remain legal. As a country that is a democratic-republic, and the ultimate beacon of freedom, denying citizens the right to marry anyone who is of legal age to consent, would be antithetical to freedom and democracy.

I don't know what same-sex marriage has to do with "democracy." Or with "freedom," which appears to me to be selective. Why should two men be free to marry, but not three men? Or a man and two women? Or, since you brought up the age of consent, a man and a young teenager? I have no desire to abolish such laws, but I'll nonetheless note that there's no concept of an "age of consent" to be found in the Bible. It's the product of modern legislation.

God's design for human sexuality, that "a man shall ... hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24) is grounded in creation. Jesus cites this verse in his teaching on divorce (Matt. 19), as does Paul in his teaching on the meaning of marriage in Eph. 5. Both assume a man and a woman, not two men, nor two women, nor a man with more than one woman. Paul's teaching that marriage symbolizes the relationship of Christ and his church makes no sense otherwise.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Growing up, we were family friends with a family from church that had three sons. The middle son turned out to be gay. He was “different” from before he even hit puberty. The eldest son would be playing video games and the youngest son would be playing football or something similar, while the middle son wanted to bake cakes. We (young guys), knew he was gay before he was even old enough to have such thoughts. All three boys were raised by the same church-going parents under the same circumstances.

I disagree with this although I understand where you come to such a conclusion. Having an interest in baking cakes, sewing, interior design, fashion, or making floral arrangements doesn't make one "gay" and perhaps this is a stereotype that really needs to go away? Are we going to call a woman a "Dyke" simply because she has an interest in auto mechanics and likes to shoot guns and blow stuff up?

I tell that story to say that this example has long left an impression on me that we just don’t know everything. I understand that the Bible indicates homosexuality is wrong, and I don’t doubt that any more than having sexual relations outside of marriage is wrong. However, I do believe there are people who are born “wired” in that direction. There are also people who I believe have become of that persuasion as a result of some type of abuse or trauma, but again, going back to my church family example, the latter wouldn’t apply (at least I’d be 99.99% sure in that regard).

I do not believe that God made anyone gay! I am sympathetic towards gay people who are truly convinced they were "Born this way" and I do not doubt their sincerity but their problem is a sin problem just like everyone else.

 

[abcaines]

More dead horse beating...

What Ransom just said is spot on but I think what is happening with this part of the thread is that homosexuality and gay marriage are being treated like a political issue. Homosexuality and gay marriage are a moral and spiritual issue which is why it is being forced on society and dissenters are being castigated for sticking to God ordained sexuality. The alphabet soup agenda desires to force us to accept and celebrate their lifestyle choices as part of their rebellion against God. Rather than acquiesce to God, they force others to acquiesce to them in place of God's approval.

 

[subllibrm]

I’m curious, as a Christian, how did you choose to respond? Is that why you’re no longer a public school employee?

My bus route included a young lady who went from goth to trans over the course of summer break. I could go into my working theory about how kids on the fringes have evolved from cutting to goth to trans. I’m going to spare you from it for now.

She announced her new first name to me on the first day of school. My response was to refer to her by her new name in person and with the other students. What I did not do was to use he/him. The school administration mostly went along with her. There was never any paperwork presented to me indicating that the change was recognized by the school so I basically ignored pronouns altogether and referred to her by name. If I had been directed to submit to her wishes I am sure that my response would not have been accepted.

Due to health issues for my wife, we relocated closer to her medical care and I took a job with a Christian printing ministry. That is why I am no longer a school employee.

This week the state House in Michigan passed a bill to make “intentionally misgendering” a felony. If it passes in the Senate the governor will sign it. This isn’t even a workplace requirement. It is for all Michigan residents in all situations in all places at all times. So yes, it is a government issue.

 

[subllibrm]

Growing up, we were family friends with a family from church that had three sons. The middle son turned out to be gay. He was “different” from before he even hit puberty. The eldest son would be playing video games and the youngest son would be playing football or something similar, while the middle son wanted to bake cakes. We (young guys), knew he was gay before he was even old enough to have such thoughts. All three boys were raised by the same church-going parents under the same circumstances.

But what you don’t know is how their experiences differed in other ways. Was there something/someone in the life of the middle boy that exposed him to homosexuality?

From experience I can say that my sexual frame work was deeply influenced by images that I saw as a child. I can also say that my wife was exposed to similar things by her uncle. Such exposure does affect the mind of the viewer. An interesting part of our relationship is that her and I have significantly different opinions about things sexual. My default position is to make accommodation for her. My exposures were of my own choosing and sinful. Hers were as the victim of a wretched man who stole her innocence.

 

[abcaines]

This week the state House in Michigan passed a bill to make “intentionally misgendering” a felony. If it passes in the Senate the governor will sign it. This isn’t even a workplace requirement. It is for all Michigan residents in all situations in all places at all times. So yes, it is a government issue.

Rather than acquiesce to God, they force others to acquiesce to them in place of God's approval.

 

[Gringo]

I disagree with this although I understand where you come to such a conclusion. Having an interest in baking cakes, sewing, interior design, fashion, or making floral arrangements doesn't make one "gay" and perhaps this is a stereotype that really needs to go away? Are we going to call a woman a "Dyke" simply because she has an interest in auto mechanics and likes to shoot guns and blow stuff up?

I do not believe that God made anyone gay! I am sympathetic towards gay people who are truly convinced they were "Born this way" and I do not doubt their sincerity but their problem is a sin problem just like everyone else.

"I do not believe that God made anyone gay! I am sympathetic towards gay people who are truly convinced they were "Born this way" and I do not doubt their sincerity but their problem is a sin problem just like everyone else."



But could you at least explain what it is that you think does happen.

Since you believe that we have all been given the same sexuality, that of man to woman, what does happen to that person to cause him not to realize he is attracted to the opposite sex and not to recognize when he is being drawn to the opposite sex and how does "sin" play a part in it.

Please explain.

Thanks

 

[Gringo]

Not a sin, no--not if you mean a specific, sinful act. But it is sin: borne out of a corrupted and sinful nature. Homosexuality and idolatry are the two specific sins Paul singles out to show how fallen man is disordered in his thinking. He's quite clear that both the acts ("men committing shameless acts with men", Rom. 1:26) and the desire ("men ... were consumed with passion for one another," ditto) are sinful.



No argument there.



I don't know what same-sex marriage has to do with "democracy." Or with "freedom," which appears to me to be selective. Why should two men be free to marry, but not three men? Or a man and two women? Or, since you brought up the age of consent, a man and a young teenager? I have no desire to abolish such laws, but I'll nonetheless note that there's no concept of an "age of consent" to be found in the Bible. It's the product of modern legislation.

God's design for human sexuality, that "a man shall ... hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24) is grounded in creation. Jesus cites this verse in his teaching on divorce (Matt. 19), as does Paul in his teaching on the meaning of marriage in Eph. 5. Both assume a man and a woman, not two men, nor two women, nor a man with more than one woman. Paul's teaching that marriage symbolizes the relationship of Christ and his church makes no sense otherwise.

.
Ransom,

I don't mean to be "beating a dead horse" . . . but I truly am trying to understand y'all's reasoning. I told Dr HukNDuck earlier that there is no use in denying what the Bible teaches and so I am in agreement with you that it teaches this. And I have asked Baptist Renegade to help me understand what he is saying as well.

You say "born out of a corrupted and sinful nature" and Baptist Renegade has also said that homosexuality is due to "sin". Everyone has a sinful and corrupted nature or were you saying that the homosexually inclined has a specific corrupted and sinful nature causing him to fall to this "sin"?

Do you feel that one doesn't become gay until he's grown or do you acknowledge that children who are gay know it (even if they can't put it into words)? And if so, what on earth did a little child do to become one of the two sinners that Paul singles out as "disordered" in his thinking?

Please help me to understand and explain a little further.

Thanks

 

[ALAYMAN]

…. However, I do believe there are people who are born “wired” in that direction.

To whatever extent someone may or may not be “wired” that way it’s no different than “being wired” to lie, rage with anger, covet, or any other sinful condition resulting from man’s fallen depraved condition. All sin, rightfully identifiable by the Scriptures should be repented of, not excused or blamed on God.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

To whatever extent someone may or may not be “wired” that way it’s no different than “being wired” to lie, rage with anger, covet, or any other sinful condition resulting from man’s fallen depraved condition. All sin, rightfully identifiable by the Scriptures should be repented of, not excused or blamed on God.

I agree with you. That was my original point. Everyone is born with different sinful traits. Over the years, I’ve noticed nieces and nephews born into the same family with very different personalities and sinful natures. One nephew seems to have been naturally quick to anger since the moment of birth, while his sibling is never quick to anger, but can be sneaky and dishonest. I think we’re all born with different challenges and weaknesses of character.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

But could you at least explain what it is that you think does happen.

Since you believe that we have all been given the same sexuality, that of man to woman, what does happen to that person to cause him not to realize he is attracted to the opposite sex and not to recognize when he is being drawn to the opposite sex and how does "sin" play a part in it.

Please explain.

Thanks

First of all, I do not believe that God gives everyone the "same" sexuality. Consider the following:

Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

In 1 Cor 7, Paul speaks of the "Gift of singleness" and how those with this "gift" are able to use it for God's glory. Some refer to this as being "A-Sexual" and Netflix did a show on this that was rather intriguing.

In the Church today, "Old Spinsters" and "Confirmed Bachelors" are regarded as oddballs and looked upon with suspicion. One assumes that if they are not married and not interested in pursuing a relationship with the opposite sex, that he must be gay! I believe that the Church does a great disservice pressuring everyone to be in some sort of relationship and referring to this as "normal." We also have a huge problem equating the concept of "Love" with sexual desire to the point where someone looks at 2 Sam 1:26 and automatically assumes that David must've had a homosexual relationship with Jonathan!

Regarding sin, we understand that a man is TOTALLY DEPRAVED due to Adam's fall. This is the root cause of sin, it is literally who we are and it is only by the supernatural grace of God that we can be delivered by such! We are sinners by birth and therefore have all sorts of "natural" sinful desires. Same sex attraction would be one of these.

I would also say that the world plays into this with the stereotypes I have mentioned. "If you drive a VW Rabbit Convertible, drink Perrier, and like listening to Bette Midler, then you must be gay!"

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

I disagree with this although I understand where you come to such a conclusion. Having an interest in baking cakes, sewing, interior design, fashion, or making floral arrangements doesn't make one "gay" and perhaps this is a stereotype that really needs to go away? Are we going to call a woman a "Dyke" simply because she has an interest in auto mechanics and likes to shoot guns and blow stuff up?

I understand it’s a “stereotype,” but as I said, we (the peers of the boy) knew he was “different” from an early age. None of us ever said anything to him about it, but we turned out correct. Stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason. Of course not 100% of male hairdressers are gay, but a very high proportion are. (There’s plenty of academic research on “rainbow occupations” available online that you can peruse.)

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Not a sin, no--not if you mean a specific, sinful act. But it is sin: borne out of a corrupted and sinful nature. Homosexuality and idolatry are the two specific sins Paul singles out to show how fallen man is disordered in his thinking. He's quite clear that both the acts ("men committing shameless acts with men", Rom. 1:26) and the desire ("men ... were consumed with passion for one another," ditto) are sinful.



No argument there.



I don't know what same-sex marriage has to do with "democracy." Or with "freedom," which appears to me to be selective. Why should two men be free to marry, but not three men? Or a man and two women? Or, since you brought up the age of consent, a man and a young teenager? I have no desire to abolish such laws, but I'll nonetheless note that there's no concept of an "age of consent" to be found in the Bible. It's the product of modern legislation.

God's design for human sexuality, that "a man shall ... hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24) is grounded in creation. Jesus cites this verse in his teaching on divorce (Matt. 19), as does Paul in his teaching on the meaning of marriage in Eph. 5. Both assume a man and a woman, not two men, nor two women, nor a man with more than one woman. Paul's teaching that marriage symbolizes the relationship of Christ and his church makes no sense otherwise.

My point is that I believe every person is born with different sinful leanings and challenges. As I said in another post, some are naturally quick to anger, others struggle with honesty, greed, lust, etc. Some men are naturally able to be with one woman for decades without temptation towards another woman, while other men constantly have to be on guard to not have a wandering eye for women who they aren’t married to. I believe the same type of problem exists with same-sex attraction.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I agree with you. That was my original point. Everyone is born with different sinful traits. Over the years, I’ve noticed nieces and nephews born into the same family with very different personalities and sinful natures. One nephew seems to have been naturally quick to anger since the moment of birth, while his sibling is never quick to anger, but can be sneaky and dishonest. I think we’re all born with different challenges and weaknesses of character.

Thanks for clarifying. I guess my post was directed at that contingency that wants to shout "I was born this way" as both an excuse for the behavior, as well as a rationale for blaming God. That sort of sloppy thinking is so prevalent in today's therapy culture, nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions, and so many want to re-write or ignore what the Scriptures plainly say, all in the name of trying not to offend people. I still remember in my impressionable Christian years the young preacher who helped shape me into who I am today saying essentially "if we offend people with how we present our message then shame on us, but if people are offended at the very message of the gospel itself then that's their problem".

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Thanks for clarifying. I guess my post was directed at that contingency that wants to shout "I was born this way" as both an excuse for the behavior, as well as a rationale for blaming God.

To a degree, I am saying some people are born that way, but the difference is I’m not saying that this makes it acceptable in the Christian faith. I think every person (due to our inherited sinful natures) is born with different sinful proclivities and challenges. I argued in a much earlier post to Gringo that even if a person has same-sex attractions as far back as they can recall, that a person can choose to be celibate. Not every man has a struggle with pornography, but for a man who does, putting software blockers in place will help address the issue. It doesn’t mean that the man won’t still naturally (sinfully) still lean in that direction, but it can help to address the underlying problem.

 

[ALAYMAN]

To a degree, I am saying some people are born that way, but the difference is I’m not saying that this makes it acceptable in the Christian faith. I think every person (due to our inherited sinful natures) is born with different sinful proclivities and challenges. I argued in a much earlier post to Gringo that even if a person has same-sex attractions as far back as they can recall, that a person can choose to be celibate. Not every man has a struggle with pornography, but for a man who does, putting software blockers in place will help address the issue. It doesn’t mean that the man won’t still naturally (sinfully) still lean in that direction, but it can help to address the underlying problem.

From a Christian perspective the notion that each of us have differing proclivities that we are susceptible to is explicitly taught….

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

The problem in this discussion is the liberal/agnostic/atheist perspective which practically and essentially rejects all theological and Scripturally inspired basis for morality.