If you don't like the company we keep you're free to leave.
We're here, we're queer and we're coming for your children'
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Ekklesian,
When I was a child, there was a ball field up the street. And all of the little boys would congregate there to play ball. They all loved ball. Some were excellent players and others were mediocre but they all loved the sport. And then, there was a little red headed kid with bifocals. He'd come onto the field and want to play too. He couldn't hit the ball worth a flip, he was awkward and totally non athletic. He didn't even understand all of the rules. But those boys let him play anyway. They understood that his lack of athletic skill had nothing to do with theirs. They understood that his missing the ball as it came over the plate had nothing to do with their own enjoyment and so, they let him play too. His lack of skill, his lack of athletic grace didn't cause them to decide not to play a sport they loved.
Won't you let me be the red headed step child of this forum? There's not a thing I can say that will sway these men here (and women). Most of these people have known me or of me since at least 2006. If I was here to cause them to lose their faith, I have been a dismal failure. No, it's just that I have an interest in things concerning God even if I don't believe what they do about Him. Aside from theology, I tend to lean very conservatively and so I sometimes try to post in the areas unrelated to theology because I find that most people here tend to lean that way too. What is my purpose engaging the people here, you ask. It's just to have a little fellowship with those that are willing. As far as the gay issue, I try not to bring it up. But someone else started this thread and I tend to feel very strongly about the little children and so I did say that I was gay and embarrassed about how the gay community is acting. Anyway, this is my answer as to why I am here. I will post answers to your others concerns separately.
Gringo
Duh.
No one's stopping you, Gringo, but you are swaying them in one sense, and that is in the belief that one can be identified by his appetites, as if it's the same thing as nationality or race.
We should talk about what it means when someone says he's gay.
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Ekklesian,
I know that you saw where I said that I was glad about gay marriage and yet I admitted that the Bible comes down for marriage between a man and a woman.
Understanding my seeming defiance of God, necessitates that you understand how I view the Bible.
Before one ever open its leather cover; before one ever reads the first "In"; before one ever reads the first sentence, he has already decided who wrote the Bible and how it was written. His understanding and interpretation of the scriptures are based on those two things. If the Apostle Paul says one thing about salvation and seemingly James says another, it can't be a contradiction because the same "person" in reality, wrote both things. James must have meant this and not that. If the Apostle John says "whosoever" and Paul refers to "the elect", John had to be referring to whosoever of the elect. Because there is no contradiction considering that The Holy Spirit is the author and finisher . . .
I don't see the Bible that way. I do not have the gift of faith. I do not have the ability to trust things like that. I just don't.
I see the Bible as an extremely important collection of writings. The study of those writings help us to understand the ancient civilizations: their buildings, their rites, their beliefs etc. But unlike most of the folks here, I feel that each of the books were written by man and not The Holy Spirit and therefore, open to subjective opinion and error. If I am wrong, Ekklesian, then I am wrong. But that is what I feel. But there is no point in denying what certain passages teach. They teach what they teach. "Absolutely".
By the way, I also believe that the ideal way is for one man and one woman - for life. I had the best example of what a male and female relationship should be like, Every meal that my mother cooked was "the best" one my father had thus far eaten. I remember seeing him many times, coming into the kitchen and kissing on my mother as she cooked. And then, when he had had enough, he happily trotted back off to the den and she would quietly wipe his slobber off of her face. My father saw to it that my mother had every new invention that came on the market. He held her on the queenly pedastal that she so rightly deserved and he insisted that we each treated her like the queen that she was. The only whipping I can ever remember getting from him was because he felt that I had treated my mother with disrespect. And she in turn, treated him as the king that he was. I never remember hearing them argue except once. And it only lasted a minute. Their relationship lasted for 64 years. And the home that they provided for us was one of love and security. And so, I feel that certainly, that's the ideal.
But life isn't so simple and that doesn't work out for everyone that way. And yet, I believe everyone deserves someone and thankfully, I haven't been alone for these 30 years.
Ekklesian,
I know that you saw where I said that I was glad about gay marriage and yet I admitted that the Bible comes down for marriage between a man and a woman.
Understanding my seeming defiance of God, necessitates that you understand how I view the Bible.
Before one ever open its leather cover; before one ever reads the first "In"; before one ever reads the first sentence, he has already decided who wrote the Bible and how it was written. His understanding and interpretation of the scriptures are based on those two things. If the Apostle Paul says one thing about salvation and seemingly James says another, it can't be a contradiction because the same "person" in reality, wrote both things. James must have meant this and not that. If the Apostle John says "whosoever" and Paul refers to "the elect", John had to be referring to whosoever of the elect. Because there is no contradiction considering that The Holy Spirit is the author and finisher . . .
I don't see the Bible that way. I do not have the gift of faith. I do not have the ability to trust things like that. I just don't.
I see the Bible as an extremely important collection of writings. The study of those writings help us to understand the ancient civilizations: their buildings, their rites, their beliefs etc. But unlike most of the folks here, I feel that each of the books were written by man and not The Holy Spirit and therefore, open to subjective opinion and error. If I am wrong, Ekklesian, then I am wrong. But that is what I feel. But there is no point in denying what certain passages teach. They teach what they teach. "Absolutely".
By the way, I also believe that the ideal way is for one man and one woman - for life. I had the best example of what a male and female relationship should be like, Every meal that my mother cooked was "the best" one my father had thus far eaten. I remember seeing him many times, coming into the kitchen and kissing on my mother as she cooked. And then, when he had had enough, he happily trotted back off to the den and she would quietly wipe his slobber off of her face. My father saw to it that my mother had every new invention that came on the market. He held her on the queenly pedastal that she so rightly deserved and he insisted that we each treated her like the queen that she was. The only whipping I can ever remember getting from him was because he felt that I had treated my mother with disrespect. And she in turn, treated him as the king that he was. I never remember hearing them argue except once. And it only lasted a minute. Their relationship lasted for 64 years. And the home that they provided for us was one of love and security. And so, I feel that certainly, that's the ideal.
But life isn't so simple and that doesn't work out for everyone that way. And yet, I believe everyone deserves someone and thankfully, I haven't been alone for these 30 years.
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People here may accept me as their friend but those here who truly believe in the inerrant scriptures are never going to accept homosexuality. I am not so unrealistic to believe otherwise. So no, I am not looking for anyone here to accept homosexuality and if they did, indeed, they would have to overlook the Apostle Paul as well as others. Not gonna happen.
But I am not on this forum to talk about homosexuality, specifically. I simply responded and joined in on a thread started by someone else. This is just one subject discussed on this forum and I am not so important or persuasive as to "sway" anyone on such an important topic.
But to answer your question, no, I am not seeking to be "delivered".
.
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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Gringo - you’ve spoken several times of growing up in a great family with good role models as parents. I’m curious though, were your parents Christians? Were you raised in church? Also, regardless of those answers, did your parents know (and accept) your sexual identity?
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My parents were Christian and yes I grew up in the church - a very active church. My childhood and youth was full of AWANA meetings, youth meetings, Bible camps, resthome singing, bus visitation etc.
My father (grandfather by birth) was a devout believer. He was also a gospel songwriter and had several songs published in the Stamps Baxter songbooks. He grew up in an age when homosexuality just wasn't spoken about in polite society, I don't think. I never heard him once speak of it. Ever. And I certainly never heard him use ugly words to describe gays. But that wasn't in his character anyway. He never spoke unkind of anyone and he told me to never speak bad of anyone whose presence I wasn't in. He was referring to gossip.
If I've already told this, I'm sorry to repeat it but I can't keep up with what I've said and what I haven't said. But I will never forget one time, my mother and I were in the car going to check on some rental property that we owned and I was driving. I was holding her hand. And she asked me why I never dated. I understood what she was really asking me but at that time in my life, I just didn't have the courage or backbone to answer her truthfully. I gave her some stupid answer. But of course, I didn't have to. She knew. And another time, shortly afterwards, we were sitting at the table and she told me that her lady friend had told her about a "queer" that lived near her. You would have to have known my mother to understand how using that word was so out of her character. She was trying to get me open up about something she obviously thought so ill of. I'm sure it was weighing heavily on her mind.
My point: No, they would not have approved. I'm sure they were sorely disappointed. In those days, neither they or I could talk about it to each other. And I'm sure I broke their hearts. While I'm sure they would have given anything for me to not have "gone down that road", they still loved me. My parents passed within four years of each other when I was young and just "coming out" (although not to them) They were kind to me to the end. I wish I could have talked about it with them but I just couldn't. The night before my father died, he asked me to kiss him goodnight. Four years later, I was with my mother, holding her hand as she passed. There were no better parents than mine - except maybe yours to you.
My father (grandfather by birth) was a devout believer. He was also a gospel songwriter and had several songs published in the Stamps Baxter songbooks. He grew up in an age when homosexuality just wasn't spoken about in polite society, I don't think. I never heard him once speak of it. Ever. And I certainly never heard him use ugly words to describe gays. But that wasn't in his character anyway. He never spoke unkind of anyone and he told me to never speak bad of anyone whose presence I wasn't in. He was referring to gossip.
If I've already told this, I'm sorry to repeat it but I can't keep up with what I've said and what I haven't said. But I will never forget one time, my mother and I were in the car going to check on some rental property that we owned and I was driving. I was holding her hand. And she asked me why I never dated. I understood what she was really asking me but at that time in my life, I just didn't have the courage or backbone to answer her truthfully. I gave her some stupid answer. But of course, I didn't have to. She knew. And another time, shortly afterwards, we were sitting at the table and she told me that her lady friend had told her about a "queer" that lived near her. You would have to have known my mother to understand how using that word was so out of her character. She was trying to get me open up about something she obviously thought so ill of. I'm sure it was weighing heavily on her mind.
My point: No, they would not have approved. I'm sure they were sorely disappointed. In those days, neither they or I could talk about it to each other. And I'm sure I broke their hearts. While I'm sure they would have given anything for me to not have "gone down that road", they still loved me. My parents passed within four years of each other when I was young and just "coming out" (although not to them) They were kind to me to the end. I wish I could have talked about it with them but I just couldn't. The night before my father died, he asked me to kiss him goodnight. Four years later, I was with my mother, holding her hand as she passed. There were no better parents than mine - except maybe yours to you.
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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Thank you for sharing your story. I know others on here have probably heard it in past years. I’d like to respond when I get the opportunity—maybe later today.
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Been there, done that too. After my now ex-wife presented me with papers and the message that her mind was made up and she'd get divorced with or without my consent, I went back to my home church for a weekly dose of "all divorced people are sinners who were too lazy to work on their marital problems". I put up with that for a couple of years, along with the message that God was done with me serving, after which I took off for a more liberal church. That sojourn was a tale in itself.
After remarrying and a decade or so in the UMC, which I left because of their desire to go all in with rights for the alphabet soup gender crowd, I wound up in a church that preaches Baptist doctrine but is neither affiliated with the SBC (they were the product of a split) or any of the indy-fundy networks. The pastor and I have talked at length about this issue, and the take of the eldership (I've sat down with a couple of them too) is "divorce happens; time to move forward and keep serving God."
A good stance to take in light of "no fault divorce". It takes two to make a marriage, but only one to sever it.
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For a gay man to put it as succinctly as Gringo did here, that's a fine piece of writing. Good job, and I'm glad you're here!
That said, your garden variety gay man or lesbian doesn't bug me much. For most of the ones I've been acquainted with over my two years at an "open and affirming" liberal seminary, their "gay agenda" consists of "get up, curse the alarm clock, go to work, come home, eat dinner and watch TV till bedtime, then repeat the process." No trouble with that. Shoot, I found out late in life that the cranky old spinster that lived next door to me as a kid was a lesbian whose "girlfriend" came over frequently!
It's the trans people that get me riled up, and they're the ones who seem to be doing the heavy lifting of "coming for your children". I know of two younger people in my own family who've been taken in, both of whom struggle with depression, etc. on top of their gender dysphoria. One is in their late 20s, has a beard straight out of ZZ Top, but believes themself to be a woman. The other spent 8th grade believing she was a boy, but did a sudden u-turn in high school and accepted that she was indeed the sex assigned at birth, becoming a total girly girl.
The trans people seem to operate almost like cult recruiters, seeking out people whom are fighting other issues in their lives (like puberty or moving into adulthood) and hold out gender dysphoria as the problem and the need to "convert" in order to find freedom from their pain.
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You're OK. You're honest about who you are, but on the fence a bit about whether the G's, B's, and the L's are on good standing with God. Thankfully, that's not my job to decide so I presume that God's grace can cover that.
The trans and the dragsters are the ones who chap my hide. The issue that caused me to leave Methodism was our conference accepting a drag queen as a ministerial candidate. Said dragster received national notoriety as a result and received invitations to preach all over in his alter ego "Ms. Penny Cost". (Google that some time; how God doesn't hit him with a lightning bolt for some of the things on his website is proof of grace.) The thought that this goof could one day be my pastor was the point at which I said, "Nope." I didn't think that stuff was funny when Flip Wilson did it in the 70s.
I ended up in a non-denom Baptistic church. Ironically, their minister of family life is a young lady who formerly dated my nephew...who came out as gay a bit after the breakup! The nephew, that is. She is married to a young man whose father was a former pastor of mine.
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And then some of them want to normalize their fringe behavior. I'll give you this link with a blasphemy warning.
Drag Queen | Ms. Penny Cost
At the intersection of Queerness and Faith, dwells Ms. Penny Cost: A United Methodist Drag Queen and Future Minister
www.mspennycost.com
(Note to Gringo: I do not consider this clown representative of most LGB Christians who seek leadership in the church. I know another such man who is gay and has served two or three deployments in the Middle East as an Army officer; he'd have made a great pastor had the Army not gotten in the way...)
I think you would enjoy Jordan Peterson's round table discussions on Exodus. He is not a believer either, but I've come away from the sessions I've listened to while doing chores with some interesting insights.
This is an article that basically sums up my position on the whole 'orientation' idea with one or two exceptions. https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality
In addition, sexuality is largely conditioned. Despite the same sex attraction that many may feel sometimes, and if it weren't a thing common to man I don't think there would have been a law given concerning it, that doesn't bar someone from having a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex any more than a 'heterosexual' man's attraction to the 25 year old hottie that moved in next door mean that his wife of thirty years suddenly won't do.
It's better to marry than to burn [with lust].
So you just chose to hobnob with a bunch of fundamentalists who pretty much think you're bound for hell unless you repent?
C'mon, Gringo.
I don't think you're being necessarily dishonest, but I can't help thinking there's more to it.
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"In addition, sexuality is largely conditioned. Despite the same sex attraction that many may feel sometimes, and if it weren't a thing common to man I don't think there would have been a law given concerning it, that doesn't bar someone from having a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone of the opposite sex any more than a 'heterosexual' man's attraction to the 25 year old hottie that moved in next door mean that his wife of thirty years suddenly won't do."
Could you word the above a little differently. I'm not understanding what you are saying. I think I understand but I'm not sure.
I think you're saying that everyone has the capability of same sex atrraction, otherwise, there wouldn't have been a need for Moses to warn against it but that, that doesn't mean one can't have a fullfilling relationship with the opposite sex. Is that right?
"So you just chose to hobnob with a bunch of fundamentalists who pretty much think you're bound for hell unless you repent?
C'mon, Gringo.
I don't think you're being necessarily dishonest, but I can't help thinking there's more to it."
Could you expound? What is it that you think I'm up to?
Could you word the above a little differently. I'm not understanding what you are saying. I think I understand but I'm not sure.
I think you're saying that everyone has the capability of same sex atrraction, otherwise, there wouldn't have been a need for Moses to warn against it but that, that doesn't mean one can't have a fullfilling relationship with the opposite sex. Is that right?
"So you just chose to hobnob with a bunch of fundamentalists who pretty much think you're bound for hell unless you repent?
C'mon, Gringo.
I don't think you're being necessarily dishonest, but I can't help thinking there's more to it."
Could you expound? What is it that you think I'm up to?
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Dr. Huk-N-Duck
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I was only half in jest earlier, but politically he’s conservative, like the Log Cabin Republicans. Obviously, when it comes to religious views, he differs.
There were a few others who came across as being fairly decent in their demeanor. If I am recalling correctly, the only one who was somewhat on the antagonistic side was Route 70 but even then you could interact with him. Andrew was overly cautious IMO and relegated them to the "Basement" which I thought was a shame and a missed opportunity! Gringo has chosen to stick around and I for one am glad he is here!
What mission?
For the most part, we are just having fun!We are ambassadors for Christ both on and off this forum. I believe that God will hold us accountable for our conduct on this forum and will likely hold the administrators accountable for what they allow to take place here!
I think that Christians can get unruly at times especially if we are just interacting among ourselves. Seminary "Bar Fights" can be especially bloody and vicious. When we are reminded that there are those on the "Outside looking in," it should give us pause regarding our conduct! This is my "Coram Deo" thought anyway.