These past 2,000 years ... so many have died without Jesus Christ ....

[Timothy]

I was sharing the gospel with someone who honestly wanted to know how a loving God could keep the gospel from so many people for these past 2,000 years.

I simply said man is born a sinner, already judged before a Holy God. He must judge these people as a pure and true judge. God isn't required to save anyone from his judgement. But, he has provided a way of escape ....

How would you answer?

I am VERY thankful God saved me after thinking of the many many many people who never had a chance.

 

[ALAYMAN]

When I was a teenager, before I was a Christian, my dad (a non-Christian to the best of my ability to discern, rest his soul) would tell me the main reason he stayed away from Christians and church was because they were a bunch of hypocrites.  Even though I didn't have any affinity for Christ or the things of God I understood the bogus nature of his position.  I challenged him about such a foolish idea of allowing <alleged> "hypocrites" to keep him from Christ/heaven.

There's a similar parallel to answer your question.  <without getting into Calvinistic predeterminism and such> I'm not sure I fully understand the magnitude and extent of why God allows some people to live their entire lives without ever hearing of Christ, but what I do know is that there's enough evidence to prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that Christ and the Bible is true, and that He died for ME.  I'll figure out the answers to such tough questions when I get to heaven and ask him.

In other words, there's many things that we don't understand completely, but we still trust in part of things that we do understand.  I don't know how the sun's corona is hotter than it's atmosphere, but I'm still glad we have light, and radiant heat. 

Don't let what ya don't know get in the way of the absolute beauty and benefit of what ya do know.  At least that's ONE way to answer him.

 

[rsc2a]

I personally believe (because I believe the Bible teaches) that there will be people who have never heard of Jesus who have been/are/will be saved because of Jesus even if they never "call on" His name in this life.

 

[rsc2a]

I personally believe (because I believe the Bible teaches) that there will be people who have never heard of Jesus who have been/are/will be saved because of Jesus even if they never "call on" His name in this life.

How can you believe that?

Acts 4:10-12
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

From here (among other texts, but I believe these are most clear):

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16

 

[T-Bone]

rsc2a makes some interesting points that don't necessarily prove his premise, but do offer circumstantial evidence.  Since there is no "clear" verse that explains the OP's question, I choose to trust in the nature of God...though I don't know the answer, I do know that whatever God does it will be right and good, He is so much better at being good and right than we are...so not to worry!

 

[ALAYMAN]

How can you believe that?

Yes, all people will eventually be saved, whether they do in this life, or the afterlife.  The Bible proves it here...

I Timothy 2:4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Castor Muscular]

"All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me"

"Shall", not "might".

None of the elect will perish.  Not one single person the Father gave to Jesus in the past 2,000 years failed to come to Jesus -- not for any reason whatsoever. 

 

[rsc2a]

How can you believe that?

Yes, all people will eventually be saved, whether they do in this life, or the afterlife.  The Bible proves it here...

I Timothy 2:4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That's not a claim I made...

...although I do believe it is a possibility (along with annihilationism). All things will be reconciled; I just don't know if you could call Hell reconciliation (although, I'm not necessarily opposed to it).

I guess you could me agnostic towards any of these views.

Either way, it's a separate question from the one asked, and if we want to discuss it we can start another thread (as not to hijack this one).

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

Jesus will tell some to depart from him as he never knew them.  That squashes any notion that everyone will be saved.  The great white throne judgement is another refute of universal salvation. 

Romans tells us very clearly in the first chapter that God is known to man: Romans 1:19-21 (ESV)
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.  I believe that if man lives up to the light he has, God will send more light and a witness:  ex., the Ethiopian Eunuch.  But if man chooses to deny the light he has, then God will let him.  It is as simple as that.  All these clowns blaspheming God by implying that He is unfair are of the Devil, you can mark it down.  It is a lie from the chief liar.  God cannot sin, nor be tempted with sin.  He is sovereign, and has the right to do with his creation as he wishes.  But he is also holy and does eveything right.  The posters that are coming close to blasphemy here had better watch their tongue as they are close to bringing an indictment against almighty God and his Holiness.

 

[ALAYMAN]

"All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me"

"Shall", not "might".

None of the elect will perish.  Not one single person the Father gave to Jesus in the past 2,000 years failed to come to Jesus -- not for any reason whatsoever.

Since many threads lately seem to have displayed a disproportionate amount of error and heresy, I'm continuing the trend, and answering you in a similar vein so as to represent more of the same ...


Twisted hermeutical answer#1-
Your answer does not take into all facets of consideration that these verses in John 6 do not discuss anything that may occur subsequent to the resurrection, ie, after the resurrection

 

[ALAYMAN]

Jesus will tell some to depart from him as he never knew them.  That squashes any notion that everyone will be saved.  The great white throne judgement is another refute of universal salvation. 

James 2:13 says mercy will triumph over wrath, and Col 1:20 says He will reconcile ALL things to himself, and Rob Bell told me in the end love wins.




8)

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

Matthew 25: 31- The scripture can not be taken literally from the standpoint that Christ is coming back and will then decide who are the sheep and the goats.  No, this is a picture of two main interpretations: 1) Christ comes again at the beginning of the millenial reign and allows those peoples the treated Israel kindly to come into the kingdom.  The goats will be cast off the earth.  These are the people alive when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.  The other interpretation is that this is an analogy of the great white throne judgement.  The saved are always the ones that have works (James) to back up their salvation, and they persevere.  You can't try and make these scriptures some weighed in the balances sort of theology.  We know for a fact that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.  And we know the rich man lifted up his eyes in torment.  We know the dead in Christ shall rise first, and we that are alive and remain will be called up to meet them in the air.  Works based salvation is not being taught in Matthew 25. Period.

 

[rsc2a]

I believe that if man lives up to the light he has, God will send more light and a witness:  ex., the Ethiopian Eunuch.  But if man chooses to deny the light he has, then God will let him.  It is as simple as that.

Yeah, that's nice...but it's simple assertion at this point.

All these clowns blaspheming God by implying that He is unfair are of the Devil, you can mark it down.  It is a lie from the chief liar.  God cannot sin, nor be tempted with sin.  He is sovereign, and has the right to do with his creation as he wishes.  But he is also holy and does eveything right.  The posters that are coming close to blasphemy here had better watch their tongue as they are close to bringing an indictment against almighty God and his Holiness.

Who is close to blasphemy here? Who has denied God has any of those characteristics?

Matthew 25: 31- The scripture can not be taken literally from the standpoint that Christ is coming back and will then decide who are the sheep and the goats.

Why not?

No, this is a picture of two main interpretations: 1) Christ comes again at the beginning of the millenial reign and allows those peoples the treated Israel kindly to come into the kingdom.  The goats will be cast off the earth.  These are the people alive when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.

That's reading a lot into the text that just isn't there.

The other interpretation is that this is an analogy of the great white throne judgement.  The saved are always the ones that have works (James) to back up their salvation, and they persevere.  You can't try and make these scriptures some weighed in the balances sort of theology...Works based salvation is not being taught in Matthew 25. Period.

And that's at odds with what I said how?

 

[ALAYMAN]

I believe Acts 4:12 proves that man must be saved here on earth.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

It is my understanding, when reviewing strong's concordance, that this word 'heaven' can be defined as "heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens." Plus, 'among men' gives the implication that it is here on earth.

No other name here on earth, whereby we must be saved.

And note the MUST. Bible says man must be saved, not should.

I believe the gift of salvation is available for all men and women. So, salvation is available only here and now on earth for whosoever believeth.

You need to get rid of the Jacobean English Version and read the NIV to understand what you readeth....

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

See, Jesus is the only way of salvation (cf Jn 14:6), and this verse you quote confirms that of all the people who've ever walked earth, only Jesus is the true Savior.  Of course that doesn't eliminate the possibility that just because He's the only one qualified to save, that people won't  be saved after their death.

Get with the program.

 

[rsc2a]

I believe Acts 4:12 proves that man must be saved here on earth.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

It is my understanding, when reviewing strong's concordance, that this word 'heaven' can be defined as "heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens." Plus, 'among men' gives the implication that it is here on earth.

No other name here on earth, whereby we must be saved.

And note the MUST. Bible says man must be saved, not should.

I believe the gift of salvation is available for all men and women. So, salvation is available only here and now on earth for whosoever believeth.

Seems to me like your jumping through a lot of hoops because, at its face value, the verse you cited is in now way at odds with:

I personally believe (because I believe the Bible teaches) that there will be people who have never heard of Jesus who have been/are/will be saved because of Jesus even if they never "call on" His name in this life.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Here is the entire context.  Jesus is teaching doctrine here that applies to everyone, not just the people present at the time.  And there are two important things to note, one of which is rarely noted from this section. 

The first, often quoted, is that

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16[/quote]

Okay, I give up on the heretical devil's advocate mockery.  Dealing with the passages you cited in the order you cited them, what is it about Romans 2:15 (particularly given your underlined portions) that makes you think that this provides evidence to support your claim that people who don't hear of Christ may be saved despite that fact?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16

Okay, I give up on the heretical devil's advocate mockery.  Dealing with the passages you cited in the order you cited them, what is it about Romans 2:15 (particularly given your underlined portions) that makes you think that this provides evidence to support your claim that people who don't hear of Christ may be saved despite that fact?
[/quote]

Because I believe this verse (and others) give evidence that God does not condemn (or save) people based on revelation they don't have any access to. If people have a faith in God in accordance with the revelation they do have, then God will credit it to them as righteousness. Like confessing Christians, that faith will present itself in works, works that will "accuse or even excuse" them because those works will be the proof of the faith that they did have. They serve to provide evidence that they have been regenerated by the Spirit because of the work of the Son to the glory of the Father.

However, just like with confessing Christians, it is not their works that saves them. I believe there is a special place for those who knowingly call upon Christ in this life, but that doesn't preclude others from being in Christ.

Does that give us excuse not to try to reach others with the good news of Jesus? Absolutely not! We are still heralds and ambassadors. We are the hands and feet, eyes and ears that God is using to usher in, at least a part, of His kingdom in the here and now. We should be striving to do all we can (by His grace and power) to bring about as much of the Kingdom of God as we possibly can in the here and now.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
Because I believe this verse (and others) give evidence that God does not condemn (or save) people based on revelation they don't have any access to. If people have a faith in God in accordance with the revelation they do have, then God will credit it to them as righteousness. Like confessing Christians, that faith will present itself in works, works that will "accuse or even excuse" them because those works will be the proof of the faith that they did have. They serve to provide evidence that they have been regenerated by the Spirit because of the work of the Son to the glory of the Father.

However, just like with confessing Christians, it is not their works that saves them. I believe there is a special place for those who knowingly call upon Christ in this life, but that doesn't preclude others from being in Christ.

Does that give us excuse not to try to reach others with the good news of Jesus? Absolutely not! We are still heralds and ambassadors. We are the hands and feet, eyes and ears that God is using to usher in, at least a part, of His kingdom in the here and now. We should be striving to do all we can (by His grace and power) to bring about as much of the Kingdom of God as we possibly can in the here and now.
[/quote]

I may engage this exegetically later, and am not fleeing haphazardly to another text, but three quick questions before moving the discussion forward:

1) How do you reconcile Paul's (the author of Rom 2:15 of course) words with his words later in Romans 10:14-17?

2) Are you a fan of Clark Pinnock?  Open Theism as well?

3) You believe that general revelation/conscience is sufficent for salvation?

 

[T-Bone]

Sufficient to say...God doesn't miss anyone...no not one!  I trust Him more to reach those He will reach than any man or group!