Lol, from the one that believes justification and salvation are the same thing.
The origin of the current version of the KJVO myth...
- Thread starter robycop3
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 9,477
- Reaction score
- 3,090
- Points
- 113
FSSL, for the record, do you believe that justification and salvation are the same thing, or that one is a subset of the other?
I stated plainly several times to be justified one has to be saved( born again) first.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 9,477
- Reaction score
- 3,090
- Points
- 113
I doubt he disagrees with that but I will wait for his response. I'm confident he believes that justification occurs simultaneously with regeneration.
Salvation is the umbrella term that involves justification, sanctification….
Ask Leatherneck why he believes a person can be saved before being justified. I disagree with that. He has divorced salvation from justification. There is NO salvation without justification providing the basis of it.
Leatherneck is simply twisting the argument to divert from the question he refuses to answer.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 9,477
- Reaction score
- 3,090
- Points
- 113
Ok, Leatherneck, do you believe a person can be saved and not justified? Do you believe a person can have a delay in justification after being saved?
Nope, but there is no justification before salvation. Salvation is not the same as justification two entirely different things.Justification is one of several things that salvation brings. Propitiation , sanctification, and justification are all results of salvation but they are all different. Jesus said you must be born again(saved) , and once one is born again they are justified, Sanctified , and their sins propitiated as a result of salvation.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 9,477
- Reaction score
- 3,090
- Points
- 113
Could you point me to where FSSL/somebody has said that they believe that justification occurs prior to salvation?
Post #89 FSSL said justification is salvation.
6 Things Christ Accomplished by His Death
April 22, 2011 by mattpermanHere’s a very brief summary of the six core things Christ accomplished in his death.
1. Expiation
Expiation means the removal of our sin and guilt. Christ’s death removes — expiates — our sin and guilt. The guilt of our sin was taken away from us and placed on Christ, who discharged it by his death.
Thus, in John 1:29, John the Baptist calls Jesus “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Jesus takes away, that is, expiates, our sins. Likewise, Isaiah 53:6 says, “The Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him,” and Hebrews 9:26 says “He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
2. Propitiation
Whereas expiation refers to the removal of our sins, propitiation refers to the removal of God’s wrath.
By dying in our place for our sins, Christ removed the wrath of God that we justly deserved. In fact, it goes even further: a propitiation is not simply a sacrifice that removes wrath, but a sacrifice that removes wrath and turns it into favor. (Note: a propitiation does not turn wrath into love — God already loved us fully, which is the reason he sent Christ to die; it turns his wrath into favor so that his love may realize its purpose of doing good to us every day, in all things, forever, without sacrificing his justice and holiness.)
Several passages speak of Christ’s death as a propitiation for our sins. Romans 3:25-26 says that God “displayed [Christ] publicly as a propitiation in his blood through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because in the forbearance of God he passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration of his righteousness at the present time, that he might be just and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.”
Likewise, Hebrews 2:17 says that Christ made “propitiation for the sins of the people” and 1 John 4:10 says “in this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
3. Reconciliation
Whereas expiation refers to the removal of our sins, and propitiation refers to the removal of God’s wrath, reconciliation refers to the removal of our alienation from God.
Because of our sins, we were alienated — separated — from God. Christ’s death removed this alienation and thus reconciled us to God. We see this, for example, in Romans 5:10-11: “For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.”
4. Redemption
Our sins had put us in captivity from which we need to be delivered. The price that is paid to deliver someone from captivity is called a “ransom.” To say that Christ’s death accomplished redemption for us means that it accomplished deliverance from our captivity through the payment of a price.
There are three things we had to be released from: the curse of the law, the guilt of sin, and the power of sin. Christ redeemed us from each of these.
- Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13-14).
- Christ redeemed us from the guilt of our sin. We are “justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24).
- Christ redeemed us from the power of sin: “knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ” (1 Peter 1:18-19).
5. Defeat of the Powers of Darkness
Christ’s death was a defeat of the power of Satan. “He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him” (Colossians 3:15). Satan’s only weapon that can ultimately hurt people is unforgiven sin. Christ took this weapon away from him for all who would believe, defeating him and all the powers of darkness in his death by, as the verse right before this says, “having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).
6. And he Did All of This By Dying As Our Substitute
The reality of substitution is at the heart of the atonement. Christ accomplished all of the above benefits for us by dying in our place — that is, by dying instead of us. We deserved to die, and he took our sin upon him and paid the penalty himself.
This is what it means that Christ died for us (Romans 5:8) and gave himself for us (Galatians 2:20). As Isaiah says, “he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities . . . the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him” (Isaiah 53:5-6).
You see the reality of substitution underlying all of the benefits discussed above, as the means by which Christ accomplished them. For example, substitution is the means by which we were ransomed: “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28). Christ’s death was a ransom for us — that is, instead of us. Likewise, Paul writes that “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13).
Substitution is the means by which we were reconciled: “For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18). It is the means of expiation: “He made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21) and “He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24). And by dying in our place, taking the penalty for our sins upon himself, Christ’s death is also the means of propitiation. According to Romans 3:24 justification is the result of and through redemption.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 9,477
- Reaction score
- 3,090
- Points
- 113
That's a sloppy statement (which he has since cleaned up), but nobody has said justification preceeds the new birth, as you've alleged.
What he did say was justification is salvation and it isn’t they are two different things as Romans 3:24 shows.
D
Dr. Huk-N-Duck
Guest
Note the future tense of the words:?Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Ready to Answer Leatherneck?
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 11,397
- Reaction score
- 2,410
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Romans 3:24 doesn't mention "salvation" at all. Are you alleging that redemption is salvation?
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 11,397
- Reaction score
- 2,410
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I believe after a person is saved they are then justified. Justification does not precede salvation that is not scriptural. I did not twist anything. Re-read Romans 3:24 which says justified THROUGH redemption. I divorced nothing from salvation you have an unscriptural view of scripture if you believe the justification you receive from believing and being saved is salvation. Jesus said you must be born again ( saved) by a work of the Holy Spirit it is then you receive justification after you are saved not before. A preacher once explained justification to simplify it for the congregation he said,” Justification was the being made as if we never sinned in the mind of God”. That could not happen before you were saved.
Do you even know what redeemed means ? Rom 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Do you even know what redemption means ? Rom 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: No redemption no justification it isn’t that hard to understand if you had the spiritual eyes to see it, which obviously you don’t.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2012
- Messages
- 11,397
- Reaction score
- 2,410
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
To redeem something means to take possession of it in exchange for payment. Slaves could be redeemed (Exod. 21:8). The firstborn of every Israelite and their livestock belonged to God, and it was required to pay for their redemption (Exod. 34:19-20). Israelite property belonged to God, so was not permitted to be permanently sold, but the owners or their close relatives had the right to redeem it (Lev. 25:23ff). The redemption of Naomi's land, and Ruth herself, ii is a major part of the book of Ruth.
Similarly, Christ redeemed his people: freed them from captivity by sin through the payment of his own death in their place.
Salvation is an umbrella term comprising many different aspects. Redemption, like justification, is one of those. They are not synonymous.