The Machine Model in Medicine

Ekklesian

Ekklesian

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...and one reason, if not the main reason, God vested the gifts of healing in the church.

evolutionnews.org

The Machine Model in Medicine | Evolution News

The unfortunate fact is, there really are those two conflicting sides in medicine.
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I was struck by his comment, “When my dad was dying, I saw both sides of the healthcare world, one that fought stubbornly to save a life and the other that was coldly indifferent and even eager to end it.”​
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in the process of our education and training, it became increasingly obvious that a conflict could emerge if one overemphasized the scientific quest at the expense of the compassion and altruism presumably inherent in care of the sick.​
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In fact, the practice of medicine has transitioned dramatically over the past half century....Most readers will note that it was also during this time that scientific atheism took firm hold. We had discovered DNA and, on that basis, we presumed to know how to reduce life to mere chemical reactions. Medical education then fully embraced the machine model of organism and human health.​
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But every time I have tried to rethink the issue, I have been brought back to that day as a medical student when I saw a baby’s limb torn out of its mother’s womb by forceps. It was just an arm, but its fingers were extended, reaching in vain for the life it would never have. Most of us silently gasped as we saw this. But my professor admonished us not to think negatively about the process; rather we should embrace the freedom somehow manifested by partial birth abortion. ​
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What this conclusively proved to me was that we truly were being indoctrinated to see the human body as a soulless machine. And the immense demands of med school rendered resistance almost impossible.​
 
none of the doctors i have... and none of the people i am related to or known personally in the medical field view the human body as a soul-less machine...... . and i don;t either..... faith plays an enormous part in everything they do and everything i trust them with.... ...

and contrary to what the person who wrote the excerpt in your post says it is entirely possible to make it through medical school successfully without being brainwashed into going along with the secular world view........ ..my sister worked toward her phd in psychology while simultaneously disagreeing with roughly half of what was taught in her classes... .. and her professors knew she disagreed..... .. but they couldn;t argue with the fact she also knew the subject material and was able to present it in papers alongside what she believed in a way they couldn;t fault or fail her for......

i argued with professors in pre-med all the time but following my sisters example was able to do very well with a 4.0 average until interference by mother and members of her family derailed college for me for a period of years...

but for anyone advocating more faith based efforts in healing.... (and especially with regards to emergency medical responses)... and who might be concerned that the health and medical fields are being over run with godless atheists.... .... i would recommend they do some volunteer work in the field.... specifically specialized services and wards of hospitals that deal with life or death continually.... ..... emergency rooms ... mental health wards....intensive care units... .. or do some ride alongs... (if they let you).... with an emergency medical crew in the inner city - the kind that runs a gammit of all types of medical calls and runs nonstop from one to the another.... ..... any medical service they might think a lack of people of faith is having a negative effect on....... ........ .then come up with some recommendations rather than simply offering criticisms....

yes there are many problems and wrong headed ideas out there... . but by following a clear medical standard of care most of the wrong ideas don;t get much foothold in actual practice... . regardless of how many feathers they ruffle in colleges and training.... ....
 
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Ransom said:
I for one, am very glad that the administration of antibiotics predictably slows the spread of infections.
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So am I. The point being that science is good, helpful, and not to be disdained just because God has given the gift of healing to the church. In the right hands, Science is GOOD!!!
 
aleshanee said:
and contrary to what the person who wrote the excerpt in your post says it is entirely possible to make it through medical school successfully without being brainwashed into going along with the secular world view.
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With whom are you arguing? Here's his statement in full:

What this conclusively proved to me was that we truly were being indoctrinated to see the human body as a soulless machine. And the immense demands of med school rendered resistance almost impossible. Burdened by [materialistic] medical science itself, as well as by the medico-legal requirement to strictly adhere to the most up-to-date treatment algorithm, most physicians find they have little choice but to comply. To think outside the box would imperil one’s hard-won professional standing.​
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aleshanee said:
my sister worked toward her phd in psychology while simultaneously disagreeing with roughly half of what was taught in her classes... .. and her professors knew she disagreed..... .. but they couldn;t argue with the fact she also knew the subject material and was able to present it in papers alongside what she believed in a way they couldn;t fault or fail her for......
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That's psychology, not psychiatry, correct? If so, your sister didn't attend medical school and is not a medical doctor. The most she can do is talk to someone, not medically treat anyone.

aleshanee said:
i argued with professors in pre-med all the time
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Really? 'all the time'? It sounds like Iacoboni is telling the truth about the prevailing materialistic paradigm in medical school and its negative effect on the quality of care.

aleshanee said:
yes there are many problems and wrong headed ideas out there... . but by following a clear medical standard of care
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As defined by and legislated by whom?

aleshanee said:
most of the wrong ideas don;t get much foothold in actual practice... .
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And that's the fallacious notion being countered by the medical doctor who authored the article I'm citing.
 
Ekklesian said:
That's psychology, not psychiatry, correct? If so, your sister didn't attend medical school and is not a medical doctor. The most she can do is talk to someone, not medically treat anyone.
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don;t be so fast to discount someone you don;t know.....have you ever studied for a degree in psychology?.... any medical or health related field?.....

no my sister is not a medical doctor... . but because of the particular fields of study her job requires her to know, she had a lot of medical school training too... ... we were actually in a few of the same classes at one point...... ....and her work even required some training in psychiatry... . but neither psychiatry nor psychology are the fields she works in.... they only add to her capabilitys.... she also has masters degree in other fields required for her job - including the same training advanced field combat medics get.... the influence of woke ideology and secular atheism doesn;t stop at medical school... ... it invades every part of formal training that teaches how to deal with other people....... ..what i am saying is it that is possible to combat it and counteract it and still come away with a degree you can practice with.... ....i know plenty of recent medical school grads who have done it........

my sister use to be on these forums many years ago... under the name RunsWithScissors.... and there still a lot of people here who remember her.... .. . one of the reasons she is not here now is her work keeps her so busy she doesn;t have time for things like this... ..... especially since all this peace we are experiencing that biden inspired......... thanks to that she doesn;t even have time to leave her office a few steps from the kitchen and eat dinner with us some nights... .that is when she is home....... ... she still spends a lot of time "in the field" as she calls it... which is usually somewhere in another country.....
Ekklesian said:
Really? 'all the time'? It sounds like Iacoboni is telling the truth about the prevailing materialistic paradigm in medical school and its negative effect on the quality of care.
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i think you know what i meant.... . it happened often enough so that it felt like "all the time"..... but that;s still in pre-med stage... .. as you progress further into medicine the philisophy part of things give way to the practical.... you can;t kneel next to a multisystem trauma patient and philosophy him back to health..... you have to be hands on and your hands better know what they are doing...... praying is great and very useful as long as you can pray at the same time as you are asking questions of witnesses.... getting an accurate medical history and your hands keep working at the same time...... it;s not for the faint of heart or those who can;t think on their feet..... ... ...

my opinion is that many of those who claim they use to be in such lines of work but now have time to sit back and write books criticizing it - are those who washed out of it or found they couldn;t handle it anymore... people like that question the quality of care in current medicine because they probably had ideas and working styles that were deemed detrimental ...outdated .. or inadequate... and weren;t allowed to continue..... . .

people actively involved in that kind work and who are successful in it don;t have time for writing books... and once they retire from it they generally don;t want to talk about it anymore... although they can be convinced to teach it sometimes..... .. .at least that;s what i;ve seen

Ekklesian said:
As defined by and legislated by whom?
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the various agencies and medical associations that gather statistics and do continuing research on medical treatments... . the standards change in small ways all the time.... and they change sometimes in big ways when something is discovered to have been wrong and a better way is realized........ that;s not saying a medical doctor has to always follow what those agencies recommend.... but if they don;t then they better be right..... and their patient had better not die or suffer in a way that can be traced to something that doctor did....... or else they will be sued and litigated into oblivion........ i know of a few doctors that happened to here in hawaii.... didn;t know them personally.... but their names became household words around the medical community after they went down in flames......

Ekklesian said:
And that's the fallacious notion being countered by the medical doctor who authored the article I'm citing.
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like i said.... you need to get out there yourself and see what;s happening first hand.... something that would give you hands on experience at least as a volunteer if you don;t have other qualifications..... .. .. and do you know the medical doctor you are citing personally?........ .have you ever heard the saying .."those who can do... and those who can;t criticize?".... he sounds to me more like a critic than someone who can do....
 
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aleshanee said:
i think you know what i meant
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I'm glad you're getting good care. That hardly makes you an authority on the trends and their impacts on medical science, though.

And, yes, I know what you meant. Why so much argument with your teachers if their paradigms were valid? Your testimony that you found much to be objectionable in your training seems to corroborate Iacoboni's to me; and it seems to me that it should to you as well.

aleshanee said:
like i said.... you need to get out there yourself and see what;s happening first hand....
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I think the disasterous COVID treatment protocols and the villification by the medical establishment itself of the medical doctors who sought more effective treatments should be enough to warn anyone.
 
Oh, and my statement about the difference between psychology and psychiatry wasn't discounting anyone or anything. It's just that they play by different rules, and a psychologist likely would have little experience with the latest medical treatment algorithms and the legal requirements to adhere to them.
 
Ekklesian said:
I'm glad you're getting good care. That hardly makes you an authority on the trends and their impacts on medical science, though.
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right.... i;m not an authority..... but you are wrong if you think i have not kept up with new trends in medicine.... specifically emergency medicine and cardiac care... ... there are 3 certifications i earned in college that i have kept up with by going to the CME retraining every 2 years.. .... advanced cardiac life support... .. pediatric advanced life support.... and prehospital trauma and emergency care......... my dad has about a dozen he kepts up to date on even though he;s retired.. .. mostly because he is still asked to teach now and then. ... i go with him to most of them and sit in on the class..... also take part in the practical exercises.. .. i don;t get a certification for that but i do get credit for auditing those classes.... . ......

plus there are also 3 other people in our household currently working in the medical field... one of them is an emergency room RN with a masters degree... . and because of all of them there are current monthly medical journals all over the house...... i read them from time to time........ especially if they have information in them concerning mental health and new research on schizophrenia....... ..
Ekklesian said:
I think the disasterous COVID treatment protocols and the villification by the medical establishment itself of the medical doctors who sought more effective treatments should be enough to warn anyone.
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i agree..... and i also think fauci should be in jail..... ... but we didn;t pay much attention to him or any doctors on tv during the covid pandemic.... we have our own sets of household protocols we follow depending what it is that;s going on....... it;s vital when there are people in the household who might be exposed to deadly pathogens on the job and bring them back home......... out of 9 people in this household nobody contracted covid...... soon we will be starting another protocol if tuberculosis currently running through the islands gets worse..... ..we have had many epidemics of TB in the islands and because of that plus also sars... people are already accustomed to wearing masks and taking other precautions when necessary.... it;s bo big deal here..... ..but the nonsense fauci came up with was not only ridiculous but it was self defeating......
Ekklesian said:
Oh, and my statement about the difference between psychology and psychiatry wasn't discounting anyone or anything. It's just that they play by different rules, and a psychologist likely would have little experience with the latest medical treatment algorithms and the legal requirements to adhere to them.
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yeah.... well..... i have been treated by psychiatrists and counselled by psychologists for many years..... so i am well aware of the differences between them....... but you would be wrong ... again.... to assume psychologists automatically know nothing about psychiatry or medical treatment algorythms.... .like my sister some of them have training in both disciplines.. .but refer patients to a specialist on the other side of it whenever necessary...... they work together very well in most places.... . ..... but my sister... regardless of being trained in both... does not work in either one of those fields... ..but having an expert knowledge of psychology is vital to what she does do.... ..

which brings me back to you again......... ..what is it you do?..... do you have training in psychology or psychiatry?..... a degree in one or the other perhaps?........ a degree in both?.........no doubt you can find internet articles authored by people claiming to be authorities on these subjects.... but do you have enough training or education to know whether they are telling the truth or not?......... .....
 
aleshanee said:
which brings me back to you again......... ..what is it you do?..... do you have training in psychology or psychiatry?..... a degree in one or the other perhaps?........ a degree in both?.........no doubt you can find internet articles authored by people claiming to be authorities on these subjects.... but do you have enough training or education to know whether they are telling the truth or not?......... .....
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Feel free to rebut Iacoboni and prove to us that he is an ignoramus and a liar. And in your rebuttal I wouldn't mind an explanation of the points on which you and your sister regularly opposed your teachers, and what qualified you to do so.
 
Ekklesian said:
Feel free to rebut Iacoboni and prove to us that he is an ignoramus and a liar. And in your rebuttal I wouldn't mind an explanation of the points on which you and your sister regularly opposed your teachers, and what qualified you to do so.
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i never said any such thing about dr lacoboni...... why are you twisting my words out of context and trying to pretend i did?.... and why do you continue to dodge the question i ask you about your own qualifications?.... ... ..

i have no problem with dr lacoboni.... in fact i admire his work.... ... but i don;t understand what is so unique about one oncologist who set out from college believing he could cure cancer... . became disillusioned when he discovered he could not.... then 20 years after college suddenly had an epiphany and realized that darwinism had taken a foothold in medicine and that those attempting to follow darwinist ideology in their medical practice could be doing more harm than good... so he changed his focus from working to cure cancer to writing books...... ....

great.... i;m glad he discovered in his middle age to late life what many of us were aware of when we were still in college. ...good for him.... maybe his books will help other people going into the medical field..... ..but it;s not going to change my mind about anything... nor do i see it changing the minds of the dozens of doctors and hundreds of other people in the medical field i already know who don;t and never did follow darwinist ideology in their work......

what i was referring to by the question i asked you - was all the internet articles you frequently cut and paste sections of here ... then use to try and prove some preconceived notion you have.... including the one which i did not answer from several months ago about "noble savages".. .. where you posted the story of one man who had a bad experience with one indian tribe and then went about as if his racist diatribe was the story of all indian tribes from coast to coast.....

believe whatever you want and latch on to whatever philosophy you find on the internet that looks interesting.... some might be correct and then again they might be wrong.... .. but your acceptance of somebody elses opinions on something you know nothing about - as gospel truth.. does not make it so.. ..... unless you actually do know something about the subjects these various internet authors post on - and have some credential of your own that can back up their experiences.... ... .that;s what i;m asking you....... and it covers more than just this thread and the one other thread i have now mentioned.... i gave up on your boogers witches and haints thread when it seemed you were determined to prove some demonic influence in the medical problems i have... .. .. i have no time for any of these things... .. especially after i have argued them into the ground on these forums too many times already......

as for my experiences and my sisters experience in college.... all of that was well documented on previous versions of the fff when we were both still in college..... and that was quite a few years ago.... ... but to answer your question we pushed back on professors who took it on themselves to attack christian beliefs as if having faith was somehow a hinderance to someones ability to understand medical science or go into medical practice..... our qualifications were our salvation and beliefs as christians... . and the fact we were both making excellent grades on all subject matter........ ..

we were not alone in that resistance to what some of the professors said....... but unlike dr lacoboni we didn;t come to that realization the professors were wrong 20 years after college and start talking about it then..... we made it an issue as it was happening........ as did a few other students who since that time went on to become doctors here in the islands........ .. and again.... that is not an attempt to slam the doctor.. he did excellent work in his field of expertise..... .. and i;m sure he did what he thought he had to do with regards to his beliefs and any epiphany he might have had...... ...... .... ... but if people start taking his writings as an excuse to slam all medical science... and in particular medical sciences related to mental health - which he did not specialize in....... then that will not be a positive mark on his legacy....
 
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aleshanee said:
but to answer your question we pushed back on professors who took it on themselves to attack christian beliefs as if having faith was somehow a hinderance to someones ability to understand medical science or go into medical practice..... our qualifications were our salvation and beliefs as christians... . and the fact we were both making excellent grades on all subject matter........ ..
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Okay then. The same kinds of things qualify me.
 
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