A
AresMan
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That's been my implication in this thread.Izdaari said:
The Heretic Osteen Just Continues On...Wonder If He Is On The Board At Liberty U
- Thread starter T-Bone
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Izdaari said:
Amen, and well said Izdaari!!
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I'm sure he can answer the question, Shemp, but how do you expect him to get into the nutshell?
Nyuk nyuk nyuk!
Nyuk nyuk nyuk!
W
wheatpenny
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The Gospel summed up:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,
and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,
and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
wheatpenny said:
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Shemp asked:
I'll let you answer the question, 50 words or less.
I'll take less, please. Any other questions?
I'll let you answer the question, 50 words or less.
I'll take less, please. Any other questions?
A
AresMan
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Theoretical conversation between a Church of Christ apologist and Joel Osteen
CoC: Pastor Osteen, you are a very influential pastor of one of America's largest churches. Can I talk to you about the gospel?
Osteen: Sure. Always glad to help.
CoC: Thank you. I have some questions about how the Bible presents the gospel and was wondering if you can explain them to me according to your belief.
Osteen: What passages do you have in mind?
CoC: First, Mark 16:16, which says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." What did Jesus say was required to be saved?
Osteen: Uh, faith. He said we need to believe.
CoC: Is that all He said? Did He not say "He who believes AND is baptized shall be saved"? Would this not mean that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Osteen: Hmm. It does seem to say that.
CoC: Ok. Another one. Can you read Acts 2:38 for me, please.
Osteen: "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" Peter is telling these people that they need to repent and be baptized.
CoC:[/b] "For the remission of sins."
Osteen: Right.
CoC: What does that mean?
Osteen: Uh, that means to have your sins forgiven.
CoC: What did Peter say they needed to do to have their sins forgiven?
Osteen: Repent. They needed to believe in Jesus.
CoC: Is that all? Did not Peter say "Repent AND be baptized FOR the remission of sins"?
Osteen: Uhhh...
CoC: Ok. So far we have two verses in Scripture that clearly say one must be baptized to be saved. Can we look at a third one?
Osteen: Why not?
CoC: Let's look at Acts 22:16. This is the Apostle Paul giving testimony in court about his conversion experience. Are you with me?
Osteen: Sure.
CoC: Ok. Now, God sent Ananias to give him back his sight and tell him what to do, right?
Osteen: Of course. I have read this before.
CoC: Ok. Now, Paul tells them what Ananias told him. Want to read it?
Osteen: "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
CoC: What did Ananias tell Paul to do?
Osteen: Get up and be baptized.
CoC: What did he say that baptism would do?
Osteen: ... "wash away your sins"...
CoC: Is this not consistent with the previous two verses we saw? That belief AND baptism are needed for salvation? That repentance AND baptism are for the forgiveness of sins? Is not forgiveness the same as washing away sins?
Osteen: Uh.....
CoC: Is there any place in Paul's testimony where he explained what Ananias said?
Osteen: I don't see any.
CoC: Does it not follow, then, that Paul was affirming what Ananias said, and that he expected those around him to understand clearly?
Osteen: Uh....
CoC: Ok. Moving on. That is three strikes and you're out, but I have more. Let's look at Romans 6.
Osteen: Ok...
CoC: Verses 3-4. Here we go. Care to read them?
Osteen: ... "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
CoC: According to these verses, how are we baptized into Christ's death?
Osteen: We have to be baptized into Christ. Is this not baptism by the Spirit?
CoC: Well, what does the next verse say? It says we are buried with Christ "through baptism." Does Paul anywhere here say that it is Holy Spirit baptism?
Osteen: No, but...
CoC: Do you not use these verses yourself when you baptize a convert in water?
Osteen: Sure.
CoC: Then, how can you argue that Paul is not talking about water here? He just says "through baptism."
Osteen: Mmm hmmm.
CoC: So, then, does it not follow, according to Paul's argument, that one cannot partake in Christ's death unless he is buried with Christ?
Osteen: Sure.
CoC: And is one not buried with Christ THROUGH baptism?
Osteen: Uh...
CoC: And how can one, then, be raised to walk in newness of life unless he is first baptized, according to Paul's argument?
Osteen: Uh...
CoC: Let's now look at Colossians 2:11-13. Care to read?
Osteen: ....... "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
CoC: What does verse 12 say is "the circumcision of Christ"?
Osteen: "buried with him in baptism."
CoC: Just like in Romans 6, right?
Osteen: Yeah.
CoC: And, verse 11 says that this is "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh." Is this not like "wash away your sins" and "FOR the remission of sins"?
Osteen: Uh....
CoC: It's exactly the same thing! He also says here about being "raised with Him" just like in Romans 6, right?
Osteen: Uh huh.
CoC: And would not "He has made [us] alive together with Him" parallel "raised to walk in newness of life" in Romans 6?
Osteen: Sure
CoC: Ok. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not seeing clear teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation and for forgiveness of sins?
Osteen: Uh...
CoC: One more. Let's look at 1 Peter 3:21. Please read on.
Osteen: ....... "There is also an antitype which now saves us
CoC: Pastor Osteen, you are a very influential pastor of one of America's largest churches. Can I talk to you about the gospel?
Osteen: Sure. Always glad to help.
CoC: Thank you. I have some questions about how the Bible presents the gospel and was wondering if you can explain them to me according to your belief.
Osteen: What passages do you have in mind?
CoC: First, Mark 16:16, which says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." What did Jesus say was required to be saved?
Osteen: Uh, faith. He said we need to believe.
CoC: Is that all He said? Did He not say "He who believes AND is baptized shall be saved"? Would this not mean that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Osteen: Hmm. It does seem to say that.
CoC: Ok. Another one. Can you read Acts 2:38 for me, please.
Osteen: "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" Peter is telling these people that they need to repent and be baptized.
CoC:[/b] "For the remission of sins."
Osteen: Right.
CoC: What does that mean?
Osteen: Uh, that means to have your sins forgiven.
CoC: What did Peter say they needed to do to have their sins forgiven?
Osteen: Repent. They needed to believe in Jesus.
CoC: Is that all? Did not Peter say "Repent AND be baptized FOR the remission of sins"?
Osteen: Uhhh...
CoC: Ok. So far we have two verses in Scripture that clearly say one must be baptized to be saved. Can we look at a third one?
Osteen: Why not?
CoC: Let's look at Acts 22:16. This is the Apostle Paul giving testimony in court about his conversion experience. Are you with me?
Osteen: Sure.
CoC: Ok. Now, God sent Ananias to give him back his sight and tell him what to do, right?
Osteen: Of course. I have read this before.
CoC: Ok. Now, Paul tells them what Ananias told him. Want to read it?
Osteen: "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
CoC: What did Ananias tell Paul to do?
Osteen: Get up and be baptized.
CoC: What did he say that baptism would do?
Osteen: ... "wash away your sins"...
CoC: Is this not consistent with the previous two verses we saw? That belief AND baptism are needed for salvation? That repentance AND baptism are for the forgiveness of sins? Is not forgiveness the same as washing away sins?
Osteen: Uh.....
CoC: Is there any place in Paul's testimony where he explained what Ananias said?
Osteen: I don't see any.
CoC: Does it not follow, then, that Paul was affirming what Ananias said, and that he expected those around him to understand clearly?
Osteen: Uh....
CoC: Ok. Moving on. That is three strikes and you're out, but I have more. Let's look at Romans 6.
Osteen: Ok...
CoC: Verses 3-4. Here we go. Care to read them?
Osteen: ... "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
CoC: According to these verses, how are we baptized into Christ's death?
Osteen: We have to be baptized into Christ. Is this not baptism by the Spirit?
CoC: Well, what does the next verse say? It says we are buried with Christ "through baptism." Does Paul anywhere here say that it is Holy Spirit baptism?
Osteen: No, but...
CoC: Do you not use these verses yourself when you baptize a convert in water?
Osteen: Sure.
CoC: Then, how can you argue that Paul is not talking about water here? He just says "through baptism."
Osteen: Mmm hmmm.
CoC: So, then, does it not follow, according to Paul's argument, that one cannot partake in Christ's death unless he is buried with Christ?
Osteen: Sure.
CoC: And is one not buried with Christ THROUGH baptism?
Osteen: Uh...
CoC: And how can one, then, be raised to walk in newness of life unless he is first baptized, according to Paul's argument?
Osteen: Uh...
CoC: Let's now look at Colossians 2:11-13. Care to read?
Osteen: ....... "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses"
CoC: What does verse 12 say is "the circumcision of Christ"?
Osteen: "buried with him in baptism."
CoC: Just like in Romans 6, right?
Osteen: Yeah.
CoC: And, verse 11 says that this is "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh." Is this not like "wash away your sins" and "FOR the remission of sins"?
Osteen: Uh....
CoC: It's exactly the same thing! He also says here about being "raised with Him" just like in Romans 6, right?
Osteen: Uh huh.
CoC: And would not "He has made [us] alive together with Him" parallel "raised to walk in newness of life" in Romans 6?
Osteen: Sure
CoC: Ok. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not seeing clear teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation and for forgiveness of sins?
Osteen: Uh...
CoC: One more. Let's look at 1 Peter 3:21. Please read on.
Osteen: ....... "There is also an antitype which now saves us
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Charles Billingsley from Liberty and Thomas Road was chosen to be Worship Leader for the 2013 SBC National meeting in Houston.
Can Osteen or Romney be on the short list of speakers?
Can Osteen or Romney be on the short list of speakers?
ivannette said:
Joyce Meyer is much more substantial than Osteen, and IMO generally sound except for being WoF, and thankfully she doesn't emphasize it real hard like most of other WoF preachers.
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Izdaari said:
That's probably true, but our Pre school teacher is more substantive doctrinally than Osteen!
ivannette said:
Joyce Meyer is a heretic who promotes that Jesus suffered in hell and was born again there...she is no different than Copeland, Hinn et all. Come on people a little discernment please...but I guess that speaks to the real issue of this thread discernment does not seem to be important any longer! :'(
T-Bone said:
One may like a preacher without endorsing all their hare-brained ideas. I like a good many preachers I consider heretics in some ways. Yeah, I know Joyce Meyer is WoF, and I'm not endorsing that. I'm just saying that when she's not pushing the WoF stuff (and unlike many WoF preachers, she doesn't spend much time on it), she makes a lot of sense.