The Girl(s)

[Evelyn]

it has come to my attention my brother invictus has denied me as his sister on another community which I am not apart of

i am his sister

he has kicked me to to curb like trash since I have come out with the truth about my past as a seven year child

i am broken hearted over this

I have never understood this in my own life, Ivy.  When I spoke out, only one family member expressed sympathy on their face, right before running to the dictionary to make sure I was using the term 'molestation' correctly and legally.  The others either completely ignored me or offered reasons why I was to blame at both 8 and 12 years of age.  I wish I could explain why your brother is reacting this way.

My heart hurts for you, and even though I am only just now seeing this a few weeks after you've written it, I hope you have been able to find someone who can help guide you through all the new feelings that are coming out in your life.  I'm sorry about your brother. 

 

[Evelyn]

Well, I just read the other thread titled "invictus."  In it, I read Invictus' words, and I will admit I am left scratching my head.  Invictus was a good person to me personally on the old FFF (I mentioned earlier that I am Mrs. Soprano).  Rude, crude, and yes, at times, socially unacceptable, but I've never known him to be a liar.

I have a difficult enough time as it is dealing with the topic of this thread, and thinking that my emotions/heartstrings may have been "played," well, that's just it's own form of manipulation. Shame on you, whoever you are.

And if everything you've said about your abuse is indeed true, please, please, please go and get some real help.  If it's not true, well, you still need some help, except for other reasons.

 

[Evelyn]

i wish others could see it that way...  and i wish they could see a little bit more too... ...  . in another thread a small group of guys is arguing that registered sex offenders (which is what schaap will be when he gets out of prison).. should be brought right back into the church and given another chance... ..  put back into membership, and (from the sounds of it).. back into fellowship with the same people they, or others like them, abused... ..  .

none of those same guys wanted to blame the girl in this thread... but i wonder if now , since they are arguing for registered sex offenders rights in the other thread, .. if they would like to seat ex-con mr schaap next to this girl in church, 12 years from now, when he changes from prison issue duds into civilian clothes and walks back out onto the street again?... ....

i almost deleted that post last night.. ..  the one you replied to above... . i;m seeing what people meant when they said the more things change in fundamentalism the more they stay the same.. . .old guard out and new guard in....  except it doesn;t even look like the uniforms are different this time... ..  and the marching songs are all the same too.... . it;s a very sad thing to see....

It is of interest to note that while discussing it on my FB wall, none of my non-IFB friends ever questioned that it was on JS to be the adult in the situation.  None. Nada.

I should *also* note, however, that a great many of my IFB friends didn't ever question whether it was all on JS or not.  Of those that did question, though, or who said, "Sure it was Jack's fault, but," they fell rank and file within my more religious group of friends.

 

[Justice1976]

This is an interesting thread. A couple of weeks ago I had a conversation with a couple of ladies that knew I graduated from HAC. Both of these ladies are married and have several children. They had been following the Schaap situation and were asking if I had heard any updates. During the discussion I said, "It's sad because the girl is the innocent victim". Boy did I hit a nerve. Both of them said in so many words, "Give me a break! That girl is FAR from innocent".

These gals feel that Schaap is a scumbag and think he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. They would agree with every negative thing about Schaap that has been posted on this thread. On the other hand, they don't feel for a minute that this girl was brainwashed and wasn't a willing participant. They feel that she knew exactly what she was doing and she had full opportunity to tell her parents or someone in authority.

Everyone has their opinion. I thought this was a unique perspective from the female viewpoint.

Very good analysis.

True to (my) form, I'm about a decade late to this party, but after reading some recurring themes from multiple posts in this forum, I offer the following:

1. I always thought the "counseling" aspects of the Hyles ministry were very suspect. He made much of how many hours a week he spent "counseling" his members. I think in retrospect, the pastor's role should be much less about counseling than other tasks. Not to mention, I believe this "counseling" has led to innumerable tragedies in the church. Let your members go elsewhere if they need counseling.

2. No matter how provocative a female may act to a male, it is never the "fault" of the female that the male ACTED upon the provocation. In fact, it is the act of RESISTING such temptation that should mark the life of the true follower of Christ. VIRTUE only manifests if the temptation is successfully resisted. As noted above, it would likely be an act of wisdom not to place oneself unduly in such situations where the temptation is virtually assured in a matter of time.

3. If a female acts in a provocative manner and sinful acts ensue between her and a paramour, she is answerable to God and He shall judge. However, in the case of a leader and a follower, she still isn't to "blame" for the incident, legally. Whatever culpability she has is in the hands of the divine judge, God. And yes, just like a male, she will answer to HIM for whatever untoward role she may have played in such a scenario. Let's not say that women will not answer to God for their sins, for they will, exactly as a man.

 

[subllibrm]

The OP didn’t age well in my opinion.

 

[sword]

The staff member who faithfully transported the girl with no questions asked because it was what Preacher wanted....she will not be made to answer for her willful ignorance in this life because she 'sang' in exchange for clemency.

This was clearly conspiracy to commit all kinds of crimes on her part.

 

[sword]

Does the use of authority and influence principal still apply for consenting adult victims? Like police, clergy, medical professionals and theripists?

I know it's immoral and unethical, but is it illegal for an adult? If the victims were 18 would we feel any different? He used his position regardless of what age she was just like Dave Hyles did over and over and Schapp as well..

 

[Ransom]

I know it's immoral and unethical, but is it illegal for an adult?

A romantic relationship between doctor and patient is illegal. The doctor would need to terminate the professional relationship first.

Otherwise, I can't think offhand of a law against most relationships between two adults of unequal status (e.g pastor/parishioner, boss/employee, teacher/student, etc.) They may be professional misconduct or lead to conflicts of interest, and might be grounds for termination, but not criminal. Of course, because of the power imbalance, such a relationship would have to be carried out with discretion.

 

[aleshanee]

The OP didn’t age well in my opinion.

not originally... .. it was considered dead and buried for a long time.... .... like a rotting vampyre with
a wooden stake through it;s heart and a wreath of garlic around it;s neck.....

but guess who just resurrected it from the grave?... .....

.
.
.

well done.. igor

 

[subllibrm]

not originally... .. it was considered dead and buried for a long time.... .... like a rotting vampyre with
a wooden stake through it;s heart and a wreath of garlic around it;s neck.....

but guess who just resurrected it from the grave?... .....

.
.
.

well done.. igor


View attachment 5905

I didn’t resurrect it.

It showed up in new posts.

I commented.

Feel free to check the time/date stamp.

 

[aleshanee]

I didn’t resurrect it.

It showed up in new posts.

I commented.

Feel free to check the time/date stamp.

you are correct.... . i apologize and stand corrected... .. .it was justice1976 who resurrected this thread and deserves the title of igor.... . i just looked around and saw he has been resurrecting a lot of old dead and buried threads.....

sorry about that.....

 

[abcaines]

you are correct.... . i apologize and stand corrected... .. .it was justice1976 who resurrected this thread and deserves the title of igor.... . i just looked around and saw he has been resurrecting a lot of old dead and buried threads.....

sorry about that.....

 

[Jo]

It is of interest to note that while discussing it on my FB wall, none of my non-IFB friends ever questioned that it was on JS to be the adult in the situation. None. Nada.

I should *also* note, however, that a great many of my IFB friends didn't ever question whether it was all on JS or not. Of those that did question, though, or who said, "Sure it was Jack's fault, but," they fell rank and file within my more religious group of friends.

Even when I was part of the IFB world, I never bought into the idea that one person should be held responsible for another's inability to have control.

If a person showed me their expensive jewelry, and I lusted over it to the point where I robbed someone, it would be entirely my fault.

 

[sword]

In defense of Justice1976 he or she or they or it were not around back then so it was all new to them. The whole Baker thing did bring it all back like it was yesterday.

 

[Bob Jones VI]

Does the use of authority and influence principal still apply for consenting adult victims? Like police, clergy, medical professionals and theripists?

I know it's immoral and unethical, but is it illegal for an adult? If the victims were 18 would we feel any different? He used his position regardless of what age she was just like Dave Hyles did over and over and Schapp as well..

It is not illegal. However, people in the "Abuse" culture call it Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, or ACSA. Read this transcript of a podcast. It is very strange how far abuse can be taken.

This was an adult woman who had an affair with a pastor and puts the whole thing down to abuse, even though she knew exactly what she was doing.

Healing from Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse

After a pastor she trusted lured her into sexual relationship, Sharon Clements speaks about recovering from adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA)

julieroys.com

 

[aleshanee]

In defense of Justice1976 he or she or they or it were not around back then so it was all new to them. The whole Baker thing did bring it all back like it was yesterday.

which is why i didn;t immediately make another post and give him the igor award complete with cartoon pic of the grave robber / minion and etc... (sorry... mean and sarcastic part of this post deleted... ).

 

[AverageJoe]

not originally... .. it was considered dead and buried for a long time.... .... like a rotting vampyre with
a wooden stake through it;s heart and a wreath of garlic around it;s neck.....

but guess who just resurrected it from the grave?... .....

.
.
.

well done.. igor


View attachment 5905

Justice 1976 resurrected this thread, not sub....I don't 'know why people go and bring this kind of dung back to the surface.....STUPID I guess.

 

[aleshanee]

Justice 1976 resurrected this thread, not sub....I don't 'know why people go and bring this kind of dung back to the surface.....STUPID I guess.

i apologized to sub and said i stand corrected..... .....but i kinda like the idea of giving people an igor award that resurrect threads like this.... . i left the forum for a while years ago and deleted all the posts i had made in this thread up to that time...

 

[Bob Jones VI]

you are correct.... . i apologize and stand corrected... .. .it was justice1976 who resurrected this thread and deserves the title of igor.... . i just looked around and saw he has been resurrecting a lot of old dead and buried threads.....

sorry about that.....

I've done this in the past. However, I have only resurrected threads that I originally started or was an integral part in the discussion, albeit under a different name. In the Old FFF, I had many names.

 

[AverageJoe]

I've done this in the past. However, I have only resurrected threads that I originally started or was an integral part in the discussion, albeit under a different name. In the Old FFF, I had many names.

Yes, we know.