The Doctrine of Complete Dispensationalism (Refining it Down)

[Twisted]

No, Catholics have traditionally believed in Perseverance of the Saints. I would know, my Dad is Catholic and I grew up attending mass
on some Sundays and Protestant services on others (my Mom is Protestant). I've a keen understanding of both systems since childhood,
whereas most only have an understanding of one and an incomplete interpretation of the other that they learned from their biased
denominational defense apologetics.

Catholics even recite this many times during mass: "We believe in the Perseverance of the Saints".

Calvin simply took Perseverance of the Saints and redefined it using the hasty generalization system of axioms that I just described
in post #19, to imply that all saints will persevere to the end. Catholics have always believed that saints must persevere to the end,
however there are many writings and debates where Catholics have clearly stated God will not force them to, and the apostasy of
a believer is possible.

Catholics certainly believe perseverance to the end is necessary, and this is an obvious component of their works salvation doctrine,
as scripture clearly calls perseverance a work; laboring.

Calvin took this concept and combined it with justification by faith, meaning he had to force all who were justified to also persevere
as an act predestined and controlled by God otherwise this would obviously be works salvation (which it is: Calvin just did backflips
on fallacies to reinforce his axioms). Since Non-Catholics have historically believed that works salvation is heresy, Calvin got around
this by dividing salvation into 2 parts: justification and his once again hasty generalization interpretation of God-controlled sanctification
(which sanctification is actually 3 parts, 2 parts God, 1 part man, but Calvin lazily conglomerated it all into 1: See UGC Bible Study #2 on
Sanctification).

This is how "Reformers" get around being labeled works salvationists; they say "Oh, justification is by faith alone... but perseverance
and "sanctification" (their conglomerated interpretation of sanctification) are the absolute byproduct whereby works will follow to the end
of your final salvation, but God will force this perseverance in works to happen once you get justified." Such is a quagmire of fallacies.
Any logician who wasn't brainwashed and indoctrinated into this system will concur: this is works salvation.

I've never heard this term used by Catholics, but admit I've never looked for it in Catholic teachings.

I do know that no Catholic can claim to know where he is going when he dies, as that is the "sin of presumption".

So they might quote the words, but I have a hard time believing they understand it as we would understand it.

I'll have to look more into it. (where's my catechism?)

 

[Twisted]

No, Catholics have traditionally believed in Perseverance of the Saints.

I've looked in both of my editions of the Catechism and the word "Perseverance" does not appear in either.

 

[Ransom]

No, Catholics have traditionally believed in Perseverance of the Saints. I would know, my Dad is Catholic

Well, there it is.

On the topic of the Catholic doctrine of perseverence, I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church--an official document of the church, recommended by the then-Pope, John Paul II, in an apostolic constitution (the most important kind of papal pronunciation) , as "a sure norm for teaching the faith." Both documents, the Catechism and Fidei depositum, are readable on the Vatican's Web site.

Published by the church, approved and promoted by the Pope, and published on the church's official Web site. One would think you can't get more authoritative than that.

But no.

See, one of the UGC Wonder Twins has a dad. Who is Catholic.

No doubt he knows better than some stupid catechism. In fact, I'll bet, right this very minute, the UGC Wonder Dad is rarin to "straighten out" the Magisterium, the Pope, the Catechism, and all that other papal bull.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the UGC Wonder Twins (and their "dad") are a load of barking moonbats.

 

[Twisted]

I've looked in both of my editions of the Catechism and the word "Perseverance" does not appear in either.

Ah! Perseverance pays off! I found the word used in my copy of "The New St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism", printed 1969.

Under Lesson 477 (page 226) entitled: How Should We Pray?

Point # 5 is: "with perseverance". The index defines it as, "continuous performance of a good act despite great difficulty".

 

[Twisted]

Well, there it is.

On the topic of the Catholic doctrine of perseverence, I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church--an official document of the church, recommended by the then-Pope, John Paul II,

Where? It's not listed in the index. Give me the subject/page # where it's at.

 

[Ransom]

Where? It's not listed in the index. Give me the subject/page # where it's at.

There are multiple entries under "Perseverance" in the index of the online edition. The relevant one is paragraph 2016 (part of a larger section beginning with paragraph 1987):

The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Source, emphasis in original)​

 

[Ransom]

Here, this analogy will clear it up:

Thank you for the reminder that you are too moronic to tell the difference between a word that Calvin didn't invent, and a theological system that Calvin didn't invent.

 

[UGC]

Augustine before Calvin, and the Catholic Council of Trent:

"The first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine's Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written in A.D. 428 or 429 in the context of the controversies with Pelagius on the issues of grace, original sin, and predestination. [1] At the very outset Augustine affirms the grace of God as the ultimate basis for the believer's final perseverance...

...It is clear for Augustine, based on his understanding of the Pauline texts in Romans, that God's elect will certainly persevere to the end and attain eternal salvation.

Unlike Calvin and those in the later Reformed tradition, however, Augustine does not believe that the Christian can in this life know with infallible certitude that he is in fact among the elect and that he will finally persevere. According to Augustine "it is uncertain whether anyone has received this gift so long as he is still alive." ...Augustine's understanding of perseverance, then, reflects his understanding of the eternal predestination of God, the warning passages addressed to believers in the NT, and his sacramental theology of grace and baptismal regeneration. He held that God's elect will certainly persevere but that one's election could not be infallibly known in this life -- and that in fact one's justification and baptismal regeneration could be rejected and lost through sin and unbelief. Augustine's understanding set the parameters for Aquinas, for the Council of Trent, and for the Roman Catholic tradition generally down to the present day."


-The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine by John Jefferson Davis
Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society [JETS] 34/2 (June 1991) p. 213-228

Source: http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a133.htm

 

[Ransom]

Augustine before Calvin, and the Catholic Council of Trent:

"And that's why Calvin invented the TULIP acronym." - UGC's dad, probably

 

[Twisted]

There are multiple entries under "Perseverance" in the index of the online edition. The relevant one is paragraph 2016 (part of a larger section beginning with paragraph 1987):

The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Source, emphasis in original)​

Thanks. Of course, the keyword is "final", and only if there are "good works". Typical Roman word play.

 

[UGC]

Soon.

 

[UGC]

Feel free to influence this thread by posting any disagreeing viewpoints you are convicted about.
We will not separate ourselves from you by banning you from exercising freedom of speech to bring forth knowledge that could affect the lives of other Christians who may have been praying and waiting for answers.

Coming together to share knowledge and information with each other is important, and it's equally important to hear viewpoints that differ from your own.
We all have something to share.

In the end, we are all on a journey to discover and align ourselves with the truth.
And the way we grow in truth is by acknowledging that we as individuals don't have all the answers, which is why it's important to humble ourselves and hear the views of others that while at first may seem separate from our own, may in fact be what God is trying to send into our lives to encourage us align ourselves closer with his truth.


Look out, the next UGC Bible Study is going to break down major barriers of separation and discrimination in the church.

 

[tmjbog]

Feel free to influence this thread by posting any disagreeing viewpoints you are convicted about.
We will not separate ourselves from you by banning you from exercising freedom of speech to bring forth knowledge that could affect the lives of other Christians who may have been praying and waiting for answers.

Coming together to share knowledge and information with each other is important, and it's equally important to hear viewpoints that differ from your own.
We all have something to share.

In the end, we are all on a journey to discover and align ourselves with the truth.
And the way we grow in truth is by acknowledging that we as individuals don't have all the answers, which is why it's important to humble ourselves and hear the views of others that while at first may seem separate from our own, may in fact be what God is trying to send into our lives to encourage us align ourselves closer with his truth.


Look out, the next UGC Bible Study is going to break down major barriers of separation and discrimination in the church.

Is this true humility and acceptance of other views is or is this marketing? Don't mean to be a skeptic but it's not a view shared with Ruckman.

 

[UGC]

Is this true humility and acceptance of other views is or is this marketing?

tmjbog, let me be honest and accurate in my response here: everyone engages in "marketing". Everyone.

I think because UGC's presentation is more "polished and professional" in an online media sense compared to many Christians out there, it appears more like "marketing".

In actuality, the essence of "marketing" is simply striving to present yourself and your message effectively to others.
There is certainly "deceptive marketing", where what you present does not accurately represent what you are, or where you share information that is misleading or untrue.
However, striving to present yourself and your information in a professionally digestible format that considers and respects things like the audience's time and attention span is what we all do when we interact with each other every day, across all forms of communication, whether it be a simple conversation or an online video.

 

[tmjbog]

tmjbog, let me be honest and accurate in my response here: everyone engages in "marketing". Everyone.

I think because UGC's presentation is more "polished and professional" in an online media sense compared to many Christians out there, it appears more like "marketing".

In actuality, the essence of "marketing" is simply striving to present yourself and your message effectively to others.
There is certainly "deceptive marketing", where what you present does not accurately represent what you are, or where you share information that is misleading or untrue.
However, striving to present yourself and your information in a professionally digestible format that considers and respects things like the audience's time and attention span is what we all do when we interact with each other every day, across all forms of communication, whether it be a simple conversation or an online video.

I don't think you get what I was referring to. I'm talking about your previous "in your face" posts involving name calling and trashing other views to now believing it's important to "come together" and hear other views. My first thought is that you decided a toned down approach could be a better approach to getting your videos viewed.

 

[UGC]

I'm talking about your previous "in your face" posts involving name calling and trashing other views

Plucking it out of conversational context I'm sure.

Nowhere did UGC suddenly start "trashing other views" before a moderator or leader of these forums had already set the conversational tone as such, by which we we practiced 1 Cor. 9:21 to rough house back with them a bit in good fellowship and humor (UGC doesn't shy away from manly activities long since forgotten by our gender-swapping society). We don't think men occasionally tossing around a football and tackling each other is "toxic masculinity". And we don't think being politically slick to feign the appearance of a "nice guy" is manly either.

We have a podcast on this, called "Nice Guy Disease: How Does it Affect Men in Leadership?":

We certainly believe the system of Calvinism is trash, and truth will eventually hit all Calvinists "in the face", whether in this life or after.
Trying to take over and represent all of Protestantism by marketing the belief to the lost world that our God created mankind just to predestine most of them to a place of eternal fire and torment against their will is trash.

And it's not like we're censoring or stopping the Calvinists from responding in any way. They are free to continue to attempt to defend this absurd position, but then again so are we regarding ours.

 

[tmjbog]

Plucking it out of conversational context I'm sure.

Nowhere did UGC suddenly start "trashing other views" before a moderator or leader of these forums had already set the conversational tone as such, by which we we practiced 1 Cor. 9:21 to rough house back with them a bit in good fellowship and humor (UGC doesn't shy away from manly activities long since forgotten by our gender-swapping society). We don't think men occasionally tossing around a football and tackling each other is "toxic masculinity". And we don't think being politically slick to feign the appearance of a "nice guy" is manly either.

We have a podcast on this, called "Nice Guy Disease: How Does it Affect Men in Leadership?":

We certainly believe the system of Calvinism is trash, and truth will eventually hit all Calvinists "in the face", whether in this life or after.
Trying to take over and represent all of Protestantism by marketing the belief to the lost world that our God created mankind just to predestine most of them to a place of eternal fire and torment against their will is trash.

And it's not like we're censoring or stopping the Calvinists from responding in any way. They are free to continue to attempt to defend this absurd position, but then again so are we regarding ours.

There's the UGC I know and love. You wouldn't be nearly as much fun if you weren't trash talking. Speaking on the sex change issue. There's only one group of folk on here that think in Heaven the lady folks are all going to become manly men-which will make things really awkward with my wife.

 

[treasure_unseen]

Augustine was a rebel. The Catholic assembly often ignored him. He never really represented anyone but himself. If you don't understand this you have absolutely no understanding of theological appeals to the "The Fathers". To appeal to Augustine as setting Catholic church doctrine is ridiculous.

 

[UGC]

Augustine was a rebel. The Catholic assembly often ignored him. He never really represented anyone but himself. If you don't understand this you have absolutely no understanding of theological appeals to the "The Fathers". To appeal to Augustine as setting Catholic church doctrine is ridiculous.

Who are you and where are you getting your crazy ideas from?

 

[tmjbog]

Who are you and where are you getting your crazy ideas from?

Ya, no one is allowed to out crazy Ruckman on this forum. Pick a number between 1 and 6 and I'll tell you how to get to heaven.