The Demerit System... the Bane of Holiness
- Thread starter FSSL
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Lots of stupid rules treating adults like children is an unhealthy approach to governing behavior, but to eliminate rules altogether is also foolish. The argument falls along the lines of antinomianism vs license. Rules without grace is legalism. Grace without law/obedience is greasy.
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cave_dweller
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admin said:
For someone who is opposed to rules and regulations you sure do like throwing the judgment around. I know some institutions who deal with students on a 1 on 1 basis. I am sure with the bigger colleges this does not happen as much, but from what I know they want to try to keep these kids around for thier own well being and the schools. The stereotyping needs to stop. If you don't like guildelines and consequences for ones actions then I suggest you don't ever kick anyone of this forum for trollign or spamming.
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FSSL said:
My biggest problem with the demerit system is not necessarily the fact that an institution chose to have rules because if you chose to go there you knew the rules and chose to follow them. The problem is the inconsistency of the way they are administered.
Where I went to school if the person that was in charge of the demerits or the particular staff giving you the demerits liked you or you were a staff kid you would either get off all together or get very few. However, if you were not liked the book would be thrown at you.
I can remember a student got caught with porn which required an immediate expulsion. Because he wasnt like he not only got expelled but also got black listed and no other student was allowed to talk to him or they too would be kicked out. However, a guy whose dad was an alumni and was liked by the staff was found with gay porn and he didn't even get campused let alone kicked out. If you are going to have rules and demerits it has to apply to everyone the same way period.
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ChuckBob
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I have a problem with authority. I just want you to leave me alone. I'm not going to bother you or anybody else. If I don't make my bed one day don't bother me with your pissant whining about it. Bullies annoy me. I don't like bullies. If you bully me I will not respect you. I will probably hurt you. The last whining bully that put his hands on me in an effort to control me got hurt. I feel better now.
ChuckBob
ChuckBob
admin said:
So in your world there are no punishments for violating a rule, or breaking a law, failing to keep an agreement outside of Colossians and Galatians?
I was expelled for breaking some rules, I knew what would happen if I was caught, but that is how real life works. If I had it to do over again, I probably would not since overall it did not end up as I had envisioned. I went back and finished, hired on staff and went on with my life. I never felt like I was a lost cause after that, it was not the colleges responsibility to restore me, it was their responsibility to teach the classes that I attended, and I was expected to honor the rules while I was there. If you need restoration after expulsion, pack up your crap and go back home to your home church.
Some folks are blase about rules, laws, and commitments; that is also part of life, and so are the repercussions.
FSSL said:
The demerit system works perfectly for those who want to have a performance based sanctification and train others to follow it.
C
cave_dweller
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Just John said:
It seems that there is a problem with authority here. There is NO place where you will go that you will agree with every single rule. Rules are normally in place to be a safeguard to those who place themselves under it. Demerits are a way to hold one accountable for the tresspassing of a guideline. This philosophy is found all throughout life. Try a "no call, no show" at your job and see if you get issued a "demerit" of no job. You say demerits do not lead to holiness, you are right. Holiness is a conscious descision on ones part after regeneration. However, the concept of demerits is put the students in an enviroment that gives them a better chance to live holy. Bottom line, you will never go somewhere without expectations put on you to do certain things or live a certain way.
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[quote author=cave_dweller]It seems that there is a problem with authority here. There is NO place where you will go that you will agree with every single rule.[/quote]
I had no problems with any of the rules at State U.
[quote author=cave_dweller]Rules are normally in place to be a safeguard to those who place themselves under it.[/quote]
So how does hair style and bed making fall into that?
[quote author=cave_dweller]Demerits are a way to hold one accountable for the tresspassing of a guideline...However, the concept of demerits is put the students in an enviroment that gives them a better chance to live holy. Bottom line, you will never go somewhere without expectations put on you to do certain things or live a certain way.[/quote]
Demerits in this type of setting are a form of control and designed to be punitive, pure and simple.
[quote author=cave_dweller]...This philosophy is found all throughout life. Try a "no call, no show" at your job and see if you get issued a "demerit" of no job. You say demerits do not lead to holiness, you are right. Holiness is a conscious descision on ones part after regeneration... [/quote]
Apples and oranges.
I had no problems with any of the rules at State U.
[quote author=cave_dweller]Rules are normally in place to be a safeguard to those who place themselves under it.[/quote]
So how does hair style and bed making fall into that?
[quote author=cave_dweller]Demerits are a way to hold one accountable for the tresspassing of a guideline...However, the concept of demerits is put the students in an enviroment that gives them a better chance to live holy. Bottom line, you will never go somewhere without expectations put on you to do certain things or live a certain way.[/quote]
Demerits in this type of setting are a form of control and designed to be punitive, pure and simple.
[quote author=cave_dweller]...This philosophy is found all throughout life. Try a "no call, no show" at your job and see if you get issued a "demerit" of no job. You say demerits do not lead to holiness, you are right. Holiness is a conscious descision on ones part after regeneration... [/quote]
Apples and oranges.
My children's christian school is not IFB it is more of a non-denominational christian school. They have rules/guidelines in which the children have to obey. They use the demerit system, but dont give them out freely! I happen to agree with the rules, and my children have had no problem! The hardest one believe it or not has been the facial hair on my boys! They are monkeys and their hair grows rather fast-so keeping the facial hair off has been a hard one for them!
Mathew Ward said:
OK, that is a completely moronic assessment.
Demerits recognize that every action is not equal, and, therefore, every consequence is not equal. Nothing more, nothing less. A demerit system generally will provide a reasonably accurate overview of where a person is in relation to legitimate authority or expectations.
That there are inconsistencies and unfairness, cattiness, and other issues merely reminds us that we live in a fallen world with fallen creatures.
You want to hear about inconsistent, unfair, etc.? Institute some kind of church discipline (accurately according to scripture, of course) in a moderately sized church with lots of extended family units and you will hear about it.
The problem is not the system, it is sinful human nature.
Frankly, I would rather see a fine system for most infractions. Won't make a person any more or any less holy, but it will fund some worthwhile causes, or, at least, pay for the damages.
Read this page. How does this system promote sanctification? http://www.mbbc.edu/slh/student-life/studentconduct/discipline/demerits/
Snippets from the page with my comments...
1) You don't know you got a demerit until you get an email notice. What about interpersonal relationships? Why foster this impersonal approach?
2) You have 5 business days to contest the demerit. Have you ever contested a demerit? It doesn't go so well. Ask the women on campus how it goes.
3) An UNINTENTIONAL absence from chapel gets you 10 demerits. Unintentional... yep. I had some of those. Life happens.
4) An uncovered tattoo (which you got before you enrolled) gets you 50! Since many tattoos are uncoverable, you will probably want to avoid matriculating.
5) Late entry gets you 5 for each 15 minutes. Nice! Since this is given anonymously, do you even have an opportunity to explain how your car broke down 45 minutes away as you attended a church in rural Wisconsin?
6) Sleeping in class gets you anywhere from 10-25! Holy Cow! Can we give the professor 25 d's if they bore you to sleep after working the late shift?
The first point stands out to me the most... you get an electronic notification. When I attended, these slips were issued anonymously in our mailbox. How, in the name of Christianity, have we let a secular, impersonal punitive system into our Bible Colleges?
We are talking about young adults who have given a Christian testimony, along with a personal recommendation from their pastor, to attend a college with a uniquely sanctified community. Why are we relying on a system that has a built in element of fear and reliance on anonymity? Why don't we teach these young people how to disciple and treat each other biblically?
...restore that person gently.
... Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone.
... Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom
... if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
... strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Why do Bible Colleges still use the demerit system?
--Is it politics? Perhaps.
--Is it easier? Absolutely.
I'd rather see our Bible Colleges teach on Relationships, Forgiveness and Reconciliation than memorize the order of the OT kings.
In 2009, Northland got rid of their demerit system and wrote the following: 1. The Way of Discipleship
We have superseded our demerit system with what we feel is a biblical model of discipleship. In reality, it is a re-commitment to a means of discipleship that has already been present at Northland. We just took away an artificial demerit system that was awkwardly laid on top of our student system of governance. Our standards and expectations remain the same. But, the way we confront and encourage is relational and the consequences practical. Quite honestly, it is a lot more work with this new way. But, it’s more biblical. And it already appears to be yielding better results. We see “The Way of Discipleship†in the spirit of Matthew 5 where Jesus “raised the bar†from the Old Testament law. We believe grace expects more—and deepens more. While we see our system as a “work in progress,†we have been very pleased with the responses of our students, faculty, and staff.
Snippets from the page with my comments...
1) You don't know you got a demerit until you get an email notice. What about interpersonal relationships? Why foster this impersonal approach?
2) You have 5 business days to contest the demerit. Have you ever contested a demerit? It doesn't go so well. Ask the women on campus how it goes.
3) An UNINTENTIONAL absence from chapel gets you 10 demerits. Unintentional... yep. I had some of those. Life happens.
4) An uncovered tattoo (which you got before you enrolled) gets you 50! Since many tattoos are uncoverable, you will probably want to avoid matriculating.
5) Late entry gets you 5 for each 15 minutes. Nice! Since this is given anonymously, do you even have an opportunity to explain how your car broke down 45 minutes away as you attended a church in rural Wisconsin?
6) Sleeping in class gets you anywhere from 10-25! Holy Cow! Can we give the professor 25 d's if they bore you to sleep after working the late shift?
The first point stands out to me the most... you get an electronic notification. When I attended, these slips were issued anonymously in our mailbox. How, in the name of Christianity, have we let a secular, impersonal punitive system into our Bible Colleges?
We are talking about young adults who have given a Christian testimony, along with a personal recommendation from their pastor, to attend a college with a uniquely sanctified community. Why are we relying on a system that has a built in element of fear and reliance on anonymity? Why don't we teach these young people how to disciple and treat each other biblically?
...restore that person gently.
... Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone.
... Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom
... if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
... strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Why do Bible Colleges still use the demerit system?
--Is it politics? Perhaps.
--Is it easier? Absolutely.
I'd rather see our Bible Colleges teach on Relationships, Forgiveness and Reconciliation than memorize the order of the OT kings.
In 2009, Northland got rid of their demerit system and wrote the following: 1. The Way of Discipleship
We have superseded our demerit system with what we feel is a biblical model of discipleship. In reality, it is a re-commitment to a means of discipleship that has already been present at Northland. We just took away an artificial demerit system that was awkwardly laid on top of our student system of governance. Our standards and expectations remain the same. But, the way we confront and encourage is relational and the consequences practical. Quite honestly, it is a lot more work with this new way. But, it’s more biblical. And it already appears to be yielding better results. We see “The Way of Discipleship†in the spirit of Matthew 5 where Jesus “raised the bar†from the Old Testament law. We believe grace expects more—and deepens more. While we see our system as a “work in progress,†we have been very pleased with the responses of our students, faculty, and staff.
Anchor said:
Sure. Biblical discipleship is messy and hard work. However by-passing the biblical model for discipline, no matter how easy it makes things, fosters a wrong idea of sanctification. Mathew's assessment was dead-on!
Why is there such a reaction to preserve a demerit system? Has Christianity become so lazy that it prefers a secular Pharisaical system instead of implementing biblical discipleship?
Anchor said:
There are schools and institutions like the Army that aren't religious that have similar rules but don't connect them holiness. I don't know what cleaning your desk has to do with holiness. I think it's ok as long as they are not made to believe they are pleasing God or being holy by doing those things.
Anchor said:
I racked up my share of demerits in Bible college in order to get me to conform to this Christian image they had in mind. The largest part was the "dress standards" in the handbook. I just looked at Crown Colleges student handbook...8 pages dedicated to dress standards. Of course there were a lot of other standards you had to conform to in order to be a good performing Christian.
I mean how I park my car should not warrant demerits, but to those in charge they did not like the angles I parked at. (sarcasm on) I'm sure there are many in hell because of my parking. (sarcasm off)
"Demerits recognize that every action is not equal, and, therefore, every consequence is not equal. Nothing more, nothing less."
If that is really your understanding of the demerit system, you might want to repeat Bible college or ask for your money back
C
ChuckBob
Guest
cave_dweller said:
Being a lawyer I do understand the need for rules. What I can't stand is nit picky stupidity and the need to control every aspect of an adult's life. I've pretty much been on my own since I was 18 yrs. old. When I was in school I was running my own business, teaching karate and keeping 3.8 average. I didn't have time nor patience to deal with the stupidity that these students have to deal with.
ChuckBob
I don't understand the demerit system for grown people. I do understand statements of faith and even codes of conduct. If grown people agree to them when they go to an institution that is great...if they then chose not to keep them, then have them leave. Demerits are so juvenile and for those who are still learning how to control themselves and the penalities for not controlling one's self. If an adult cannot control themselves have them leave.
Yes Chuckbob,
These Bible colleges show an utter lack of respect, practically distain, for their adult students.
People need to vote with their feet and stop attending such weaker brother institutions.
These Bible colleges show an utter lack of respect, practically distain, for their adult students.
People need to vote with their feet and stop attending such weaker brother institutions.