Stepping on our own fundamentalist toes...

[ALAYMAN]

As I read this piece for Christians to love Biblically I was admonished by the Lord and challenged to speak the truth, but to do it with love as my motivation....

Christ says loving God and loving others are the greatest commandments for us to live by. So I must ask … Do others recognize you as a disciple of Jesus Christ because of the love you display in your life?

The answer to this very important question may be embarrassing. It may be a bit humbling. Heck, we might even be offended if someone suggests we don’t love as we should; however, I would submit the world does not primarily recognize Christians (and the Christian Church) by our love.

If we’re not recognized by our love, how are we recognized? Here’s a list I’ve compiled:

•They know us because we hate homosexuals.
•They know us because we shared that Facebook image. You know the one, “Share in 30 seconds or you don’t love Jesus.”
•They love us because they’ll have to pry our guns from our “cold, dead hands.”
•They know us because we believe in a young earth.
•They know us because we are Republicans.
•They know us because we are Democrats.
•They know us because we think most science is bunk.
•They know us because of the tee shirts we wear.
•They know us because we’ve told them recently they’re going to burn in hell.
•They know us because we go to Church every Sunday.
•They know us because we roll our eyes if we see someone drinking a beer.
Do you get my point? We bend over backwards to make sure the world knows what we’re against. We have a little checklist of beliefs we use as a litmus test of true Christianity. Our list may even be right every once in a while, but that’s not the point. Christ says they should recognize us because of our love.

Maybe it ain't you, but isn't it all too often that I/we are often known for what we are against, rather than for being compassionate towards the fallen and lost?

 

[Recovering IFB]

The last one definitely isn't me , I would be having one with them.
This is one of the many conclusions I came to a few years ago and it made me think about what and why I was doing certain things. I realized that I  wasn't exuding grace in my life. It is something that I am working in now and I have a long way to go.
I think when we look at ourselves and we see ourselves and see what Christ did for us, should bring humility straight to our hearts and give us compassion for others, not judgementalism. Lord knows I need a lot of growth in this area

 

[FreeToBeMe]

Glad to see that you finally had that "epiphany". 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I realized that I  wasn't exuding grace in my life. ..., not judgementalism.

Yep, ministering grace to the hearer, speaking the truth in love, the greatest of all these is charity, those are concepts sometimes devoid in the sin-sniffing sort of Christian that confuses "contending" with being a jerk.

But on the other hand, it doesn't mean giving up our convictions, and becoming completely malleable with whatever culture gives a pass to either.  The real challenge is to meld the truth part with the love part.

 

[pastorryanhayden]

If you haven't yet.  Read "Secret Thoughts of An Unlikely Convert."  That book (along with the second half of James 3) really cemented these ideas in my mind.  Sometimes when I hear fellow fundamentalists talk about sinners, it makes me sick.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Sometimes when I hear fellow fundamentalists talk about sinners, it makes me sick.

Yes, the contempt inherent to condemnation is often borne out of a spirit of pride and superiority.  Some people forget that they were once children of Satan too, and that without Christ they could do nothing.

 

[christundivided]

How do you reconcile...

Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

with

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

and maybe...

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

 

[ALAYMAN]

How do you reconcile...

Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

with

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

and maybe...

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

There's no reconciliation necessary.  Christ is teaching that His love is superior <and unique from> to the definition of "worldly" love.

 

[Castor Muscular]

How do you reconcile...

Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

with

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

and maybe...

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

One of my favorites:

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[christundivided]

How do you reconcile...

Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

with

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

and maybe...

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

There's no reconciliation necessary.  Christ is teaching that His love is superior <and unique from> to the definition of "worldly" love.

I agree with the fact that His love is superior, but both deal with "loving" something or rather someone, or some "peoples".

Perception isn't always reality. Just making the point that John 13:35 can't be taken solely at face value. Its even more than just the context presents.

 

[christundivided]

How do you reconcile...

Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

with

Joh 15:19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

and maybe...

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

One of my favorites:

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God's the only One that can handle loving the world

 

[ALAYMAN]

I agree with the fact that His love is superior, but both deal with "loving" something or rather someone, or some "peoples".

Perception isn't always reality. Just making the point that John 13:35 can't be taken solely at face value. Its even more than just the context presents.

What do you mean?  Particularly about "more than the context presents"?  What was "new" about his teaching regarding love?

 

[christundivided]

I agree with the fact that His love is superior, but both deal with "loving" something or rather someone, or some "peoples".

Perception isn't always reality. Just making the point that John 13:35 can't be taken solely at face value. Its even more than just the context presents.

What do you mean?  Particularly about "more than the context presents"?  What was "new" about his teaching regarding love?

John 13:35 doesn't go into great detail. The context doesn't aid in its understanding.

Question. Do you really believe that people will see your love for another person and say "That's really a disciple of Christ"? Mormons love Mormons. JWs love JWs.... and so on down the line. John 13:35 is better understood as having a "point in time" application. I'm not saying Christians shouldn't show love toward other Christians.

 

[ALAYMAN]

John 13:35 doesn't go into great detail. The context doesn't aid in its understanding.

Question. Do you really believe that people will see your love for another person and say "That's really a disciple of Christ"? Mormons love Mormons. JWs love JWs.... and so on down the line.

I think that is how Christ meant that it OUGHT to be, but we fail at demonstrating such authentic love because of our own inability to walk in the Spirit.

John 13:35 is better understood as having a "point in time" application. I'm not saying Christians shouldn't show love toward other Christians.

What do you mean "point in time"?  You mean that it is not universal in scope?  And if I grant that (because some Scripture undoubtedly is restricted in such manner) then in what way was such love intended for just those disciples for that time?  And why do you believe that to be the proper contextual understanding?

 

[christundivided]

John 13:35 doesn't go into great detail. The context doesn't aid in its understanding.

Question. Do you really believe that people will see your love for another person and say "That's really a disciple of Christ"? Mormons love Mormons. JWs love JWs.... and so on down the line.

I think that is how Christ meant that it OUGHT to be, but we fail at demonstrating such authentic love because of our own inability to walk in the Spirit.

Yet, its not the mean by which people can genuinely determine who follows Christ and who doesn't.

What do you mean "point in time"?  You mean that it is not universal in scope?  And if I grant that (because some Scripture undoubtedly is restricted in such manner) then in what way was such love intended for just those disciples for that time?  And why do you believe that to be the proper contextual understanding?

Yes. We are to love one another. I am not saying such is "point in time". I am saying, that determining who is following Christ and who isn't.....by looking at who "loves each other"... is a point in time reference. It was to the disciples to whom He was speaking. Not Alayman and someone else.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Yet, its not the mean by which people can genuinely determine who follows Christ and who doesn't.

I think I know where you're going, and if so, might find common ground, but for the sake of clarity, why can't people genuinely know by watching us <act morally rightly> that we are genuinely different than the average person?

Yes. We are to love one another. I am not saying such is "point in time". I am saying, that determining who is following Christ and who isn't.....by looking at who "loves each other"... is a point in time reference. It was to the disciples to whom He was speaking. Not Alayman and someone else.

Okay, I understand you are asserting that it was limited to the disciples, but my question is why is it only limited to the disciples he was speaking to?  What about the command or observation of Christ limits it to exclusively them?  Was there something about the context that reveals these reasons to you?

 

[christundivided]

Yet, its not the mean by which people can genuinely determine who follows Christ and who doesn't.

I think I know where you're going, and if so, might find common ground, but for the sake of clarity, why can't people genuinely know by watching us <act morally rightly> that we are genuinely different than the average person?

"Morally right" has become so subjective in this day and age. I'm not saying there isn't an absolute "moral code/obligation". There just isn't much of one in this age in which "everyone does what's right in their own eyes".

Also, so many are focused on "taste not"... "handle not" that they solely judge a person's morality by how strict they are in denying themselves. In other words, Gandi might be the only person accepted as being "moral right" and a true example of John 13:35.

Okay, I understand you are asserting that it was limited to the disciples, but my question is why is it only limited to the disciples he was speaking to?  What about the command or observation of Christ limits it to exclusively them?  Was there something about the context that reveals these reasons to you?

Practical application. Practical Application...... For a practical comparisons..... Christ was on the scene, Christ taught things differently than anyone before Him. He presented the truth of the Gospel that never been heard before. His love and compassion was "fresh" in everyone's mind. The ruling sects of Israel didn't show love towards one another. They were in constant competition. The statement has a practical application during the time of John 13.

Fast forward to today. Everyone is claiming to be the true followers of Christ. They often use their love one for another as proof of said discipleship. Case in point..... Mormons. JWs and etc.

Again, I'm not saying to we shouldn't love one another and that we shouldn't love Mormons and etc. I am saying, that the division inherent in combating the various false sects of Christianity has made it impossible to practically apply John 13:35's teachings.

 

[sword]

People do not "see" we are Christians because we don't smoke, drink or go to movies. People "see" we are Christians through how we treat them.  Jesus taught us that the greatest among you is the servant. He said the "greatest" of these is charity. When we love people like Jesus loved us, when we love people who cannot or will not love us back, that is being Christian.

Fundamentalist often rate each other by how strict their standards are instead of how much love they show for a lost world. If we would love sinners instead of looking down at them we would see many more come to Christ.

Riding a bike on Sunday was preached against 100 yrs ago. Going out to eat on Sunday was taboo as well. What about eating or even shopping where they sold alcohol. By the last generations standards we would all be in trouble.

 

[ALAYMAN]

"Morally right" has become so subjective in this day and age. I'm not saying there isn't an absolute "moral code/obligation". There just isn't much of one in this age in which "everyone does what's right in their own eyes".

Also, so many are focused on "taste not"... "handle not" that they solely judge a person's morality by how strict they are in denying themselves. In other words, Gandi might be the only person accepted as being "moral right" and a true example of John 13:35.

Okay, I see what you're getting at, and agree that there is subjectivity in being able to see people's actions and thereby know with certainty that they are in fact Christians, but I'd still say that the "New Commandment" was universal in scope.  If we were to love like Christ loved then all of the fakes in the world would not be able to withstand the witness of the Spirit.

Practical application. Practical Application...... For a practical comparisons..... Christ was on the scene, Christ taught things differently than anyone before Him. He presented the truth of the Gospel that never been heard before. His love and compassion was "fresh" in everyone's mind.

Yes, exactly right.  The way in which "God's people" were viewing His covenant was by and large through a grid of law-keeping rather than grace.  That same grace is abundantly available today and thereby enables us to keep that same binding universal commandment.  The law of love still is ineffect, and still has power.

 

[Izdaari]

As I read this piece for Christians to love Biblically I was admonished by the Lord and challenged to speak the truth, but to do it with love as my motivation....

Christ says loving God and loving others are the greatest commandments for us to live by. So I must ask … Do others recognize you as a disciple of Jesus Christ because of the love you display in your life?

The answer to this very important question may be embarrassing. It may be a bit humbling. Heck, we might even be offended if someone suggests we don’t love as we should; however, I would submit the world does not primarily recognize Christians (and the Christian Church) by our love.

If we’re not recognized by our love, how are we recognized? Here’s a list I’ve compiled:

•They know us because we hate homosexuals.
•They know us because we shared that Facebook image. You know the one, “Share in 30 seconds or you don’t love Jesus.”
•They love us because they’ll have to pry our guns from our “cold, dead hands.”
•They know us because we believe in a young earth.
•They know us because we are Republicans.
•They know us because we are Democrats.
•They know us because we think most science is bunk.
•They know us because of the tee shirts we wear.
•They know us because we’ve told them recently they’re going to burn in hell.
•They know us because we go to Church every Sunday.
•They know us because we roll our eyes if we see someone drinking a beer.
Do you get my point? We bend over backwards to make sure the world knows what we’re against. We have a little checklist of beliefs we use as a litmus test of true Christianity. Our list may even be right every once in a while, but that’s not the point. Christ says they should recognize us because of our love.

Maybe it ain't you, but isn't it all too often that I/we are often known for what we are against, rather than for being compassionate towards the fallen and lost?

There are possibly two and a half of those that could apply to me:

* I do love my guns, and am a staunch 2nd Amendment advocate.
* I have some t-shirts with witty sayings and stuff, though none of them are exactly fundamentalist.
* I go to church most Sundays, but sometimes skip it if I'm too busy or too tired.