Shame On Warren, Hybels & Others

[Izdaari]

We aren't talking about pagans, we are talking about Islam...

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion. Islam is very established. That is the problem; Chritians accept it ss valid in liberal circles. The spirit of anti-christ is here in force.

That's a very funny definition of pagan.

Indeed. Wiccans I know consider their religion very established, one of the oldest, although not mainstream in America.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

We aren't talking about pagans, we are talking about Islam...

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion. Islam is very established. That is the problem; Chritians accept it ss valid in liberal circles. The spirit of anti-christ is here in force.

That's a very funny definition of pagan.

Indeed. Wiccans I know consider their religion very established, one of the oldest, although not mainstream in America.

So they aren't considered pagans by the world in which we live. Thanks for helping prove my point with Islam. Pagan used to be anyone that believed any religion but Christianity, but not in the U.S. with freedom of religion.  That is the very thing that liberal Christians fail to understand, and what makes Islam so dangerous and evil.  I will go a step further.  Warren and others that give credence to Islam are directly disobeying the word:

2 John 1:10-11 (NLT)
10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don

 

[Izdaari]

We aren't talking about pagans, we are talking about Islam...

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion. Islam is very established. That is the problem; Chritians accept it ss valid in liberal circles. The spirit of anti-christ is here in force.

That's a very funny definition of pagan.

Indeed. Wiccans I know consider their religion very established, one of the oldest, although not mainstream in America.

So they aren't considered pagans by the world in which we live. Thanks for helping prove my point with Islam. Pagan used to be anyone that believed any religion but Christianity, but not in the U.S. with freedom of religion.  That is the very thing that liberal Christians fail to understand, and what makes Islam so dangerous and evil.  I will go a step further.  Warren and others that give credence to Islam are directly disobeying the word:

2 John 1:10-11 (NLT)
10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don

 

[rsc2a]

So they aren't considered pagans by the world in which we live. Thanks for helping prove my point with Islam. Pagan used to be anyone that believed any religion but Christianity, but not in the U.S. with freedom of religion.

So you're objecting to my use of the word "pagan" by affirming my usage of the word "pagan"?

That is a very strange position.

That is the very thing that liberal Christians fail to understand, and what makes Islam so dangerous and evil.

Whether or not people refer to Islam as pagan religion makes it dangerous and evil?

I will go a step further.  Warren and others that give credence to Islam are directly disobeying the word:

Perhaps.

I don't think you're quite getting what John was saying there. It seems to be referring to those who purport to be Christian teachers but are actually teaching error. When John refers to deceivers who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh, I think he may be talking about Gnostics. So, I think you're taking a passage warning about Christian-based cults, and applying it to non-believers in general, which I don't think was John's intent.

Muslims don't pretend to be Christians, and certainly not Christian teachers. But you may be right that Warren, et al, are giving them more affirmation than is really appropriate.

I recommend you stop reading passage in context.   

 

[Izdaari]

I don't think you're quite getting what John was saying there. It seems to be referring to those who purport to be Christian teachers but are actually teaching error. When John refers to deceivers who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh, I think he may be talking about Gnostics. So, I think you're taking a passage warning about Christian-based cults, and applying it to non-believers in general, which I don't think was John's intent.

Muslims don't pretend to be Christians, and certainly not Christian teachers. But you may be right that Warren, et al, are giving them more affirmation than is really appropriate.

I recommend you stop reading passage in context.   

LOL! It's kinda hard not to in that case, since the whole book is only one chapter and not even half a page!

Gnostics, IIRC, taught that Jesus was purely spirit and only appeared to be human, like when an angel appears to us as a human. They didn't deny His deity, but denied His humanity... but that's just as serious an error. It really sounds like that's who John must have been talking about.

But yeah, I'll try to watch that.  :

 

[Ransom]

jimmudcatgrant said:

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion.

Where'd you dig up that definition? It's not true.

Demetrius the silversmith was so offended by Paul's preaching the Gospel, that he stirred up a riot amongst the other pagans.  The Temple of Artemis, where Demetrius would have worshipped, was one of the seven wonders of the world.

Was Greek paganism established?  And how.

 

[rsc2a]

I don't think you're quite getting what John was saying there. It seems to be referring to those who purport to be Christian teachers but are actually teaching error. When John refers to deceivers who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh, I think he may be talking about Gnostics. So, I think you're taking a passage warning about Christian-based cults, and applying it to non-believers in general, which I don't think was John's intent.

Muslims don't pretend to be Christians, and certainly not Christian teachers. But you may be right that Warren, et al, are giving them more affirmation than is really appropriate.

I recommend you stop reading passage in context.   

LOL! It's kinda hard not to in that case, since the whole book is only one chapter and not even half a page!

Gnostics, IIRC, taught that Jesus was purely spirit and only appeared to be human, like when an angel appears to us as a human. They didn't deny His deity, but denied His humanity... but that's just as serious an error. It really sounds like that's who John must have been talking about.

But yeah, I'll try to watch that.  :

Stop it! That would mean that John's epistles and his gospel are related to each other! Impossible! They only share an author.  ;D

 

[rsc2a]

jimmudcatgrant said:

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion.

Where'd you dig up that definition? It's not true.

Demetrius the silversmith was so offended by Paul's preaching the Gospel, that he stirred up a riot amongst the other pagans.  The Temple of Artemis, where Demetrius would have worshipped, was one of the seven wonders of the world.

Was Greek paganism established?  And how.

Yeah....I don't see how someone can call the Roman faith system paganism using Jimmy's definition. It makes the term "pagan religion" a bit of an oxymoron.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

jimmudcatgrant said:

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion.

Where'd you dig up that definition? It's not true.

Demetrius the silversmith was so offended by Paul's preaching the Gospel, that he stirred up a riot amongst the other pagans.  The Temple of Artemis, where Demetrius would have worshipped, was one of the seven wonders of the world.


Was Greek paganism established?  And how.

It certainly is true.  From Webster's New World Dictionary: Pagan- 1. heathen 2. one who has no religion

Any other questions?

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

We aren't talking about pagans, we are talking about Islam...

Don't be surprised. A pagan is someone who doesn't believe in an established religion. Islam is very established. That is the problem; Chritians accept it ss valid in liberal circles. The spirit of anti-christ is here in force.

That's a very funny definition of pagan.

Indeed. Wiccans I know consider their religion very established, one of the oldest, although not mainstream in America.

So they aren't considered pagans by the world in which we live. Thanks for helping prove my point with Islam. Pagan used to be anyone that believed any religion but Christianity, but not in the U.S. with freedom of religion.  That is the very thing that liberal Christians fail to understand, and what makes Islam so dangerous and evil.  I will go a step further.  Warren and others that give credence to Islam are directly disobeying the word:

2 John 1:10-11 (NLT)
10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don

 

[Just John]

Rick Warren responds to inaccurate newspaper report


Jody Brown - OneNewsNow - 3/2/2012 5:00:00 PM

Pastor Rick Warren has released the transcript of an interview with The Christian Post in which he refutes a recent newspaper report that his church is "partnering" with mosques and proposing a set of principles that conflict with orthodox Christianity.
 
Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, has responded specifically to a February 23 story in the Orange County Register that claimed he believes Christians and Muslims worship the same God, is "in partnership" with an Islamic mosque, and agreed "not to evangelize each other" while working on shared social service projects.

"All three of those statements are flat out wrong," Warren says in the interview transcript, made available Friday afternoon on Ed Stetzer's LifeWay Research blog. "Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them ... I do not believe them ... I completely disagree with them."

The well-known Southern California pastor takes issue strongly with the article's statement that he had agreed "not to evangelize."

"... Anyone who know me and my 40-year track record of ministry [knows] that I would never agree to 'not evangelizing' anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who's heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus."

Warren also describes the accusation that he promotes "Chrislam" -- a Christian-Islam mixture -- as "the lie that won't die."

On his blog page, Stetzer attributes much of the misunderstanding surrounding the OC Register article to secular newspapers' inability to "get the nuance we often use in Evangelical Christianity".

 

[T-Bone]

Rick Warren responds to inaccurate newspaper report


Jody Brown - OneNewsNow - 3/2/2012 5:00:00 PM

Pastor Rick Warren has released the transcript of an interview with The Christian Post in which he refutes a recent newspaper report that his church is "partnering" with mosques and proposing a set of principles that conflict with orthodox Christianity.

Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, has responded specifically to a February 23 story in the Orange County Register that claimed he believes Christians and Muslims worship the same God, is "in partnership" with an Islamic mosque, and agreed "not to evangelize each other" while working on shared social service projects.

"All three of those statements are flat out wrong," Warren says in the interview transcript, made available Friday afternoon on Ed Stetzer's LifeWay Research blog. "Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them ... I do not believe them ... I completely disagree with them."

The well-known Southern California pastor takes issue strongly with the article's statement that he had agreed "not to evangelize."

"... Anyone who know me and my 40-year track record of ministry [knows] that I would never agree to 'not evangelizing' anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who's heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus."

Warren also describes the accusation that he promotes "Chrislam" -- a Christian-Islam mixture -- as "the lie that won't die."

On his blog page, Stetzer attributes much of the misunderstanding surrounding the OC Register article to secular newspapers' inability to "get the nuance we often use in Evangelical Christianity".

Great to hear that...did he or did he not sign the document in the OP?

 

[Just John]

Rick Warren responds to inaccurate newspaper report


Jody Brown - OneNewsNow - 3/2/2012 5:00:00 PM

Pastor Rick Warren has released the transcript of an interview with The Christian Post in which he refutes a recent newspaper report that his church is "partnering" with mosques and proposing a set of principles that conflict with orthodox Christianity.

Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, has responded specifically to a February 23 story in the Orange County Register that claimed he believes Christians and Muslims worship the same God, is "in partnership" with an Islamic mosque, and agreed "not to evangelize each other" while working on shared social service projects.

"All three of those statements are flat out wrong," Warren says in the interview transcript, made available Friday afternoon on Ed Stetzer's LifeWay Research blog. "Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them ... I do not believe them ... I completely disagree with them."

The well-known Southern California pastor takes issue strongly with the article's statement that he had agreed "not to evangelize."

"... Anyone who know me and my 40-year track record of ministry [knows] that I would never agree to 'not evangelizing' anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who's heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus."

Warren also describes the accusation that he promotes "Chrislam" -- a Christian-Islam mixture -- as "the lie that won't die."

On his blog page, Stetzer attributes much of the misunderstanding surrounding the OC Register article to secular newspapers' inability to "get the nuance we often use in Evangelical Christianity".

Great to hear that...did he or did he not sign the document in the OP?

I am not aware either way.  I do know that a very good friend of mine spent time with him for several hours the other day in a meeting with just a few others, no press, no one who would be an apologist for him, no one who would have spoke publicly on his behalf and he was upset about what had been reported in error in the story above. In other words, his disdain for the article was private as well as public.....not just for public consumption.

 

[T-Bone]

Rick Warren responds to inaccurate newspaper report


Jody Brown - OneNewsNow - 3/2/2012 5:00:00 PM

Pastor Rick Warren has released the transcript of an interview with The Christian Post in which he refutes a recent newspaper report that his church is "partnering" with mosques and proposing a set of principles that conflict with orthodox Christianity.

Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, has responded specifically to a February 23 story in the Orange County Register that claimed he believes Christians and Muslims worship the same God, is "in partnership" with an Islamic mosque, and agreed "not to evangelize each other" while working on shared social service projects.

"All three of those statements are flat out wrong," Warren says in the interview transcript, made available Friday afternoon on Ed Stetzer's LifeWay Research blog. "Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them ... I do not believe them ... I completely disagree with them."

The well-known Southern California pastor takes issue strongly with the article's statement that he had agreed "not to evangelize."

"... Anyone who know me and my 40-year track record of ministry [knows] that I would never agree to 'not evangelizing' anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who's heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus."

Warren also describes the accusation that he promotes "Chrislam" -- a Christian-Islam mixture -- as "the lie that won't die."

On his blog page, Stetzer attributes much of the misunderstanding surrounding the OC Register article to secular newspapers' inability to "get the nuance we often use in Evangelical Christianity".

Great to hear that...did he or did he not sign the document in the OP?

I am not aware either way.  I do know that a very good friend of mine spent time with him for several hours the other day in a meeting with just a few others, no press, no one who would be an apologist for him, no one who would have spoke publicly on his behalf and he was upset about what had been reported in error in the story above. In other words, his disdain for the article was private as well as public.....not just for public consumption.

Again, I am glad to hear him make the statement in response to the article you posted.  My problem is with him or anyone else signing the document in the OP...my article states that he did sign it...it would be good to find out if it is factual.

 

[Ransom]

Again, I am glad to hear him make the statement in response to the article you posted.  My problem is with him or anyone else signing the document in the OP...my article states that he did sign it...it would be good to find out if it is factual.

His name appears on that page among the "prominent signatories." Is this the "original" (as far as something can be original on the Web) or is there a copy more closely linked with its authors?  Does Warren's name appear on that page if it exists?

 

[Ransom]

Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, has responded specifically to a February 23 story in the Orange County Register that claimed he believes Christians and Muslims worship the same God, is "in partnership" with an Islamic mosque, and agreed "not to evangelize each other" while working on shared social service projects.

And, though there are statements in "A Christian Response" that I would strongly object to, in all fairness, it says none of those three things.

 

[Just John]

I looked at the OP. I had vaguely remembered this. It's from 2007 fwiw. I don't know Warren's view on it today. There were some pretty good evangelicals on there but looked like most were Fuller Seminary faculty and mainline denom people.

 

[Just John]

Rick Warren responds to inaccurate newspaper report


Jody Brown - OneNewsNow - 3/2/2012 5:00:00 PM

Pastor Rick Warren has released the transcript of an interview with The Christian Post in which he refutes a recent newspaper report that his church is "partnering" with mosques and proposing a set of principles that conflict with orthodox Christianity.

Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, has responded specifically to a February 23 story in the Orange County Register that claimed he believes Christians and Muslims worship the same God, is "in partnership" with an Islamic mosque, and agreed "not to evangelize each other" while working on shared social service projects.

"All three of those statements are flat out wrong," Warren says in the interview transcript, made available Friday afternoon on Ed Stetzer's LifeWay Research blog. "Those statements were made by a reporter, not by me. I did not say them ... I do not believe them ... I completely disagree with them."

The well-known Southern California pastor takes issue strongly with the article's statement that he had agreed "not to evangelize."

"... Anyone who know me and my 40-year track record of ministry [knows] that I would never agree to 'not evangelizing' anyone! I am commanded by my Savior to share the Good News with all people everywhere, all the time, in every way possible! Anyone who's heard me teach knows that my heart beats for bringing others to Jesus."

Warren also describes the accusation that he promotes "Chrislam" -- a Christian-Islam mixture -- as "the lie that won't die."

On his blog page, Stetzer attributes much of the misunderstanding surrounding the OC Register article to secular newspapers' inability to "get the nuance we often use in Evangelical Christianity".

Great to hear that...did he or did he not sign the document in the OP?

I am not aware either way.  I do know that a very good friend of mine spent time with him for several hours the other day in a meeting with just a few others, no press, no one who would be an apologist for him, no one who would have spoke publicly on his behalf and he was upset about what had been reported in error in the story above. In other words, his disdain for the article was private as well as public.....not just for public consumption.

Again, I am glad to hear him make the statement in response to the article you posted.  My problem is with him or anyone else signing the document in the OP...my article states that he did sign it...it would be good to find out if it is factual.

T-Bone.....the following letter to the Saddleback congregation may or may not answer some of the questions as to his point of view....on a few things. I know nothing more than what is printed here.....and of course many bloggers who do want to believe the worst about Warren and Saddleback and who wouldn't retract something they reported negatively but found later to not be true. I even had a prolific so-called discernment blogger tell me that another, Ingrid Schleuter, would sometimes get things wrong and go over the top but because Warren's errors were so egregious it wasn't really a big deal. It used to bug the crap out of me....until it just made me laugh. (Although when I hear these type of reports and I haven't been around there in awhile it is a little disconcerting until the truth is made known. I know that compromise is always a danger for any of us.).


ON RESPONDING TO FALSE ACCUSATIONS
 

March 10, 2012
 
Dear Saddleback family,
 
A week ago a reporter published an article in the Orange County Register about Saddleback Church that contained many errors and false assumptions:
 

 

[Izdaari]

I looked at the OP. I had vaguely remembered this. It's from 2007 fwiw. I don't know Warren's view on it today. There were some pretty good evangelicals on there but looked like most were Fuller Seminary faculty and mainline denom people.

Oh noes! Not Fuller Seminary faculty and mainline denom people! The horrors!   :-*

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I received a copy of RW's letter via e mail yesterday.
It seems he was mis-judged in this matter.

I disagree with Warrens critics often, especially that his messages are not Bible centered.
I personally don't like the way he uses versions, some I've never seen to make his points, but he is a long. WY from being neo orthodox as some claim.
I do believe he opens himself to some of this criticism because he often bends over backwards to be politically correct. Just MHO.