Scriptures

[Mitex]

Now, would you like to deal with the issue at hand? Rice, Estell, Wuest, Warfield, Pettingill and Young all stated clearly that the context of 2Timothy 3:15-17 shows that the Holy Scriptures that Timothy possessed from his youth were "given by inspiration of God". Timothy did NOT have the autographs. That is the issue, Batman, deal with it instead chasing the Riddler around Alice's playground while riding Sancho's donkey.

I have dealt with it way before this thread. You know my position on derivative inspiration.

"Robin, quick to bat cave!" Poof!Pow! "Great heaping handbills, Batman, great cover!"

Yes, I know your position, but do the readers of the current discussion know it? Come out of the shadows caped crusader, Gothem has her bat lights glaring in the midnight sky.

No where in Scripture is the word "derivative inspiration" mentioned or implied. You use the term while ignoring the text - Paul stated clearly that the Holy Scriptures that Timothy possessed from his youth have the quality/character of being "given by inspiration of God". When pressed you finally admitted, after jumping through countless theological loop holes, that as to the matter of authority in matters of faith and practice there is no essential difference. You admit that the AV is indeed the Scriptures in English. Ouch, that last one was painful for you, wasn't it?

Of course, you never did acknowledge that the CONTEXT was in reference to the THEN current recognized Canon of the Old Testament which Timothy had knowledge of from his childhood. This in spite of the context in any version in any language or generation. You ignored the comments of such non-KJVO as Rice, Estell, Wuest, Warfield, Pettingill and Young who all stated clearly that the context of 2Timothy 3:15-17 shows that the Holy Scriptures that Timothy possessed from his youth were "given by inspiration of God". Timothy did NOT have the autographs.

When you accuse God of errors when He gave His word through the prophets, what more can I say?

Blatant falsehood on your part.

Anyone who claims that they have been moved along by the Spirit in a 2 Peter manner when they translate/update has some serious exegetical issues.

Must be a great thrill to run your batmobile through scarecrows in Alice's wonderland. I've never made such a claim.

 

[rsc2a]

Mitex: Which of these is inspired?


"Thou shalt not kill." Ex 20:13 KJV

...or...

"You shall not murder." Ex 20:13 ESV



"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 Tim 6:10 KJV

...or...


For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. 1 Tim 6:10 NIV

...Maybe it's not so cut and dry, maybe its more like the BIGGER differences mentioned above (see points 1-6) and they are both correct, each giving a different perspective of the same fact - truth. The latter being the non-hypocritical position of a multi-versionist and the former, well, I'll let you decide.

So you think that the same Scripture passage can be translated to mean to completely different things and both are equally valid (i.e. authoritative) because it's just a matter of "perspective".

Remind me to stay far, far away from anything you translate.

 

[Mitex]

I answered your questions. You avoided mine. I'll repeat them:
Do you agree or disagree with the definition in the OP? Please give your definition if you disagree.

Thanks for your straightforward answers. I must say that I found it quite refreshing. Now, do you have any further questions or require further clarification about a given point?

I thought the word was used 52 times in the NT, but I may have miscounted. I'm also not sure if "a consensus" is required, but an individual belief is required. But for the most part I agree.

52 times in the English NT Scriptures, 51 times with γραφή (graphe) in the Greek NT Scriptures + 1 time as γράμμα (gramma). Canon is recognized by consensus of born again Spirit filled believers - the opinions of others simply do not count. Most definitions i.e. dictionary, creedal, etc.;  include Canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. If "individual belief is required" then a consensus of "individual believers" is a much stronger witness.

What do you think the distinction between "containeth the word of God" and "nay, is the word God" is?

I think the distinction would be that the Scriptures that contain the Word of God would have other words in them that are not from God.

Then you agree with me that the AV translators acknowledged that translations can be and are the Scriptures (the word of God) - all the words of God in written form. 

Were Timothy's Scriptures "inspired in the same manner as the autographs"? Were the autographs "inspired" in the same manner as Timothy's? What would be the difference?

Never holding or seeing the Scriptures that Timothy had, it would be hard to comment. However a copy of the original and the original would both not be inspired the same way. For the originals, Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This cannot be claimed by those making copies of the originals or translations of the originals.

Well, my post was written with a twofold purpose, one, to explain my position and two, to challenge you and others to think about your positions.

1) You don't have to hold or see the Scriptures that Timothy had to know their character - given by inspiration of God. I can't think of any version that doesn't tell you that.

2) The Scriptures have a definition - you agreed to the definition of the OP - hence, you KNOW that Timothy's Holy Scriptures were "given by inspiration of God". You can also correctly deduce that they were not the autographs. Take time to consider this point.

3) I noted in a post to Barry that holy men of God did a lot of speaking, no doubt a lot more than what is actually written down in our Scriptures. Yes, they were "moved by the Holy Ghost" while they SPOKE (1P 1:21), but the Scriptures are much more than what was "spoken by the prophets". Several example will be forth coming if the Lord permits and I don't get worn out by the gnat strainers. One will suffice here:

Jer 36:4  Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.

Who was "moved along by the Spirit of God" to speak? Jeremiah. Who did the writing? Not Jeremiah the one "moved along by the Spirit of God to speak", but another.

Ok, I'll give another quick example:
Jesus surely taught, spoke and did much more than is recorded in our extant Gospels. See John 20:30-31 for a clue. Were all the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ the very words of God? Yes. Were His disciples responsible for obeying those very words (Mt 4:4)? Yes. Do we have all of those words today? No (J 20:30-31). What are we to obey? All the words of God that God gave us in the Scriptures in the form that God wants us to have today.

Even you recognize that if the copies were not exact, then an error must have occurred.

Exact? Copies must be the exact words of those "moved along by the Holy Ghost", otherwise they are in error? I know that is the party line, but have you never read the Scriptures? Note one example: The Parable of the Sower as presented in our extant Scriptures in Mt 13, Mk 4 and Lk 8. The speaker "moved along by the Spirit of God" would be our Lord Jesus Christ. The setting as far as I can tell is the same, yet take note (hold on to your hat!):
Matthew wrote that Jesus, full of the Holy Ghost of course, said, "the wicked one", Mark, who was NOT an apostle, tells us that Jesus said, "Satan" and Luke, who was NOT an apostle, wrote that Jesus said, "the devil". Exact? Jot and title exactness is not required. Other examples are plentiful throughout the extant Scriptures (note the word and its meaning).

Now, if the Scriptures, can "only" (onlyism sprouts up everywhere!) be inspired insofar as it agreeth with the original words of the Spirit moved prophets, then, "Houston, we have a problem!" The Gospel accounts rarely match, certainly not with the exactness that the skeptics, critics, and anti-KJVO demand of the AV. The copied or translated quotes of the OT as found in the NT rarely, if ever, match with any exactness - certainly not with the exactness that the skeptics, critics, and anti-KJVO demand of the AV.

Did you read the non-KJVO commentators commenting on the passage at hand? They stated that the Scriptures that Timothy knew from his youth are "given by inspiration of God". Do you agree with them?

I haven't read them in regards to that passage.

The OP is still there for your perusal.

Do you have the same Spirit of God that the apostles had?

Every born again believer is indwelt by the same Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Isn't a consensus agreement of truth a wonderful thing? Amen! Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ!

Are you led (moved, moved along, etc.) by that Spirit?

Every born again believer is led by the Spirit. Romans 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Consensual agreement with the truth is the goal of every honest and upright debater and should be the goal of all true Christians.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=admin]Another problem: You are attempting to prove that the autographa had errors because of synoptic issues. These are two separate issues. One is the writing down of events. The other is about perspective regarding the events. While it is sometimes difficult to understand the differences between the synoptics, the solution is NOT to accuse God of being sloppy in the autographs.
[/quote]

It doesn't have to be an error. One could even say that Jesus had green eyes. Another that Jesus had brown eyes. And both could be right...

...it depends on your perspective.

 

[Mitex]

2Timothy 3:16 English All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 Original Greek πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγχον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη

2 Timothy 3:16 Polish Całe Pismo jest natchnione przez Boga i pożyteczne do nauki, do strofowania, do poprawiania, do wychowywania w sprawiedliwości;

2 Timothy 3:16 Spanish Toda Escritura es inspirada divinamente y útil para enseñar, para redargüir, para corregir, para instituir en justicia,

The word of God in the above Scriptures use the term Scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16. We know with certainty that the following things are true:

1. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to the action or art of writing, handwriting, penmanship.

2. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to everything or anything ever written.

3. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to an inscription or superscription; a motto, legend, or posy.

4. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to an unknown written record or composition.

5. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to religious books, apocryphal books, the Koran, the Book of Mormon or Dale Carnegie's, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

6. The term Scripture in this context is a reference to the written words of God true in all its parts, perfect, pure, infallible, inerrant, etc.

7. The term Scripture in this context is a reference to Canonical books, specifically the 39 Old Testament Books.

8. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically say which language the words of God are written in.

9. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically mention the autographs or the New Testament.

10. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically mention whether the Scriptures are a copy or a translation. Although, the full context of 2 Timothy 3:14-17, leads us to believe that it was either a copy or a translation that young Timothy possessed or had access to from his youth. Timothy did not have the autograph, yet, the Holy Scriptures that he had knowledge of from his youth had the quality/character of being "given by inspiration of God".

Paul did not mention these facts specifically anywhere in the Scriptures, yet we, a consensus of born again Spirit filled Christians, know these facts to be intrinsically and axiomatically true.

I submit to you that the term γραφή (graphe) as used in this context refers to the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings, the written word of God, available at that time which are and have been properly regarded by believers as infallible, holy and authoritative. Paul informs us in this context that which has always been inherently true, that the written words of God are given by inspiration of God.

The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mitex]The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.[/quote]

Now your acceptance of a certain canon is a requirement for salvation? 

 

[Mitex]

[quote author=Mitex]The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.

Now your acceptance of a certain canon is a requirement for salvation? 
[/quote]
No.

Is your tree-house meeting finished? Why don't you fly out of the coup and gird up your loins like a man and answer the questions?

What about these differences? Care to take a stab? Or are you going continue to bombard my threads with little bird droppings from your bird-house?

1. The original language manuscripts are all different (legitimate?).

2. The non-original compilations are different - multiple versions each with multiple editions with differences (legitimate?).

3. There are some major differences (legitimate differences?) in the Gospel accounts of the same events.

4. There are differences (legitimate?) in the lists of the 10 Commandments.

5. There are notable differences (legitimate?) in the Scriptures that Jesus read from in the synagogue located in Nazareth (LK 4) and every extant Isaiah in any language including the original language (I added the word "language" here so that FSSL wouldn't get confused).

6. The New Testament authors and Jesus Himself are quoted as saying, "It is written...", but have you noticed the huge differences (legitimate?) in what they said, "Is written..." and what is actually written in every extant copy in any language of their alleged source text?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Mitex]The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.

Now your acceptance of a certain canon is a requirement for salvation? 

No.

Is your tree-house meeting finished? Why don't you fly out of the coup and gird up your loins like a man and answer the questions?

What about these differences? Care to take a stab? Or are you going continue to bombard my threads with little bird droppings from your bird-house?

1. The original language manuscripts are all different (legitimate?).

2. The non-original compilations are different - multiple versions each with multiple editions with differences (legitimate?).

3. There are some major differences (legitimate differences?) in the Gospel accounts of the same events.

4. There are differences (legitimate?) in the lists of the 10 Commandments.

5. There are notable differences (legitimate?) in the Scriptures that Jesus read from in the synagogue located in Nazareth (LK 4) and every extant Isaiah in any language including the original language (I added the word "language" here so that FSSL wouldn't get confused).

6. The New Testament authors and Jesus Himself are quoted as saying, "It is written...", but have you noticed the huge differences (legitimate?) in what they said, "Is written..." and what is actually written in every extant copy in any language of their alleged source text?[/quote]

From earlier...

[quote author=rsc2a][quote author=Mitex]Do the difference negate the authority of the English Scriptures? If yes, proof? O such a burden...

...P.S. Does the presence or absence of either phrase prove that our English Scriptures are no longer trustworthy? If yes, how so? If not, why do you feel compelled to constantly bring up such things?[/quote]

These questions would be impossible to answer adequately without first discussing the purpose of Scripture, how it is authoritative in regards to these purposes, proper hermeneutical methodologies given the authoritative nature of Scripture, and what criteria would make Scripture "perfect" or less than so in light of these considerations.[/quote]

...and you have shown that you will not even acknowledge that different translations are translated in ways that give them different meanings for the same passages. As such, I have no reason to expect any form of intellectual honesty from you in regards to this topic and anticipate more statements on translation that would be indistinguishable from anything any other KJVo-ist would say.

 

[prophet]

[quote author=admin]Does God have to regive His Scripture over and over, or was it given once?

Yes.
[/quote]exactly!

Anishinaabe

 

[Mitex]

I. How was the word of God revealed?
Not in "the same manner" as some argue.

A. In sundry times and in divers manners God spake unto his people.

1.  Directly - God spoke directly to people
       

Gen. 2:16	The LORD God commanded the man
Gen. 3:8	They heard the voice of the LORD God
Gen. 4:6	The LORD said unto Cain
Gen. 7:1	The LORD said unto Noah
Gen. 12:1	The LORD said unto Abram
Gen. 25:23	The LORD said unto Rebekah
Gen. 31:3	The LORD said unto Jacob
Joshua 5:2	The LORD said unto Joshua
2 Kings 10:30	The LORD said unto Jehu

 
                     
                     
                     
                   
                 
                   
                   
             

2. Appearances - God appeared unto men

Gen. 12:7, 17:1, 18:1	The LORD appeared unto Abraham
Gen 16:7-9	The LORD appeared unto Hagar
Gen. 26:2,24	The LORD appeared unto Isaac
Ex. 3:2	The angel of the LORD appeared unto Moses
Numbers 16:19,20:6	The LORD appeared unto the entire congregation
Judges 6:12	The angel of the LORD appeared unto Gideon
Judges 13:3,8,8,22	The angel of the LORD appeared unto Manoah
1 Samuel 3:4,15,21	The LORD revealed himself to Samuel
Mark 16:14	Jesus appeared unto the eleven
Acts 26:16	Jesus appeared  unto Paul
1  Cor. 15:5-9	Jesus was seen by the apostles

           
                           
                       
                                 
             
                           
             
               
                     
                     
                     

3. Visions - God gave his word through visions

Gen. 15:1	The word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision
Gen. 46:2	God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night
Numbers 24:4,16	Balaam heard the words of God in a vision
2 Samuel 7:4,17	The word of God came unto Nathan in a vision
2 Chr. 32:32, Is. 1:1	The visions of Isaiah
Daniel 8:1	Daniel received the word of the Lord in a vision
Obadiah 1:1	The vision of Obadiah
Mt. 17:9	Peter, James and John saw a vision
Acts 10:3	Cornelius saw a vision
Acts 16:9	A vision appeared unto Paul
Acts 18:9	The Lord spake by a vision unto Paul

           
           
         
           
       
             
             
                     
                     
                     
                     

4. Dreams - God gave his word in dreams

Gen. 20:3	God came to Abimelech in a dream and said.
Gen. 28:12, 31:11	The angel of God spake unto Jacob in a dream
Gen 37:5	Joseph dreamed a dream
Gen. 41:1,25	God showed Pharaoh his word in a dream
1 Kings 3:5	God gave Gibeon his word in a dream
Mt. 1:20	God gave Joseph his word in a dream
Acts 2:17	Your old men shall dream dreams

               
         
                     
               
                 
                       
                   

5. Revelations - God gave his word by revelations

Amos 3:7	The Lord God revealeth his secret unto the prophets
Mt. 11:27	Whomsoever the Son will reveal him
Mt. 16:17	Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee
Luke 2:26	It was revealed unto Simeon by the Holy Ghost
**Romans 16:25,26	According to the revelation of the mystery
1 Cor. 2:20	God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit
2 Cor. 12:1,7	Revelations of the Lord
Galations 1:12	Received it by the revelation of Jesus Christ
**Epesians 3:3,5	By revelation he made known unto Paul the mystery
1 Peter 1:12	It was revealed not unto themselves, but unto us
Revelations 1:1	The Revelation of Jesus Christ

               
             
               
             
         
       
       
       
       
       
         

**Notice - but now is made manifest by the SCRIPTURES, Apostles/Prophets by the Spirit of God.

6. Preaching

Titus 1:2,3	In due times manifested his word through preaching
Hebrews 1:1,2	God spoke through the prophets and his Son
John 3:34	He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God
Mt. 9:35	Jesus went about the cities teaching and preaching
Acts 8:35	Philip preached from the scriptures
Acts 13:5	They preached the word of God
Acts 15:35	They taught and preached the word of God
Acts 17:13	The word of God was preached of Paul
2 Tim. 4:2	Preach the word!

       
     
       
               
             
               
             
       
         

In sundry times and in divers manners God spake unto his people. Regardless of the manner in which God revealed His word - directly, appearances, visions, dreams, revelations, or preaching, etc. - the character/quality of the word of God remained the same. It was and is authoritative, perfect, pure, infallible, the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

 

[Mitex]

I am curious as to the point of your post above.

Wow, a question asking for clarity. "Martha, there's hope yet, don't give up on ole Barry! He's a brother in Christ, he'll come around..."

In answer to your question, all things have a purpose.

1) Someone stated: "God gave His word, once, through the prophets of old."
The above post shows clearly that the statement above is erroneous. God gave his word many times and not just through the prophets of old. He gave His word many, many times. He commanded Adam and Eve, He spoke to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He spoke to Moses, Jeremiah, Daniel and other prophets, He spoke to Pharaoh, David and Solomon, He spoke to Mary, Joseph, Zacharias and many others. He spoke by His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God in fact spoke at sundry times and in divers manners unto the fathers by the prophets (Heb 1:1). And yes, when those holy men of God SPOKE they did so being moved by the Holy Ghost (2P 1,20-21). We have a more sure word of prophesy than they because it is SCRIPTURE - written down as a permanent record (2P 1:19-20). We have 66 Canonical books, each given at DIFFERENT times, not once as erroneously suggested.

2) "Is the Polish Bible inspired in the same manner as the originals were inspired?"
The post above points out with Scriptural clarity that the word of God comes to man in divers manners.  The character/quality of God's word doesn't change. The word of God, as found in the Scriptures, today has the same character/quality and authority as the very voice of God did in the days of Moses. Paul stated that Timothy had the Holy Scriptures from his youth. Those Scriptures are not any "less inspired", "less perfect (trustworthy), "less pure", "less infallible" or "less authoritative" than the finger of God tables of stone that came down off the mount with Moses.

Almost 40 years ago [edited, My how time flies!] I met a 17 year Christian young lady who opened the Scriptures (Lk 24:32) unto me after overcoming the fears that so often inhibit believers from giving a Gospel witness. She showed me from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ (Acts 18:35), the only Saviour of the world (J 4:42). One of the places of the Scriptures (Acts 8:32) which she read was this: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13). She convinced me that the Scriptures were the word of God to be received, not as the word of men, but as they are in truth, the word of God (1Thes 2:13) and that if I would take God at His word (1John 5:9-13) I would truly be born again (John 3:8) by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal 3:26) and saved from the wrath to come (1Thes 1:10). This young lady, who was so bold to expound the Scriptures to me, died at the very young age of 21 years old. She left behind a beloved husband and a 1 year old son. Before she died she encouraged me to read (1Tm 4:13) and search the Scriptures daily (Acts 17:11). She did not understand Greek or Hebrew, yet clearly demonstrated from the Scriptures that whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed (Romans 10:11). I owe a great debt (Romans 1:14) of gratitude to Gwen Higgens (Seager) for her faithfulness and have endeavored to carry the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the regions beyond (2Cor 10:16) always remembering her faith in the word of God, the Scriptures. From that day until now I have read the Scriptures, but never in Greek or Hebrew, not having knowledge of those languages. By God’s grace I have traveled from Michigan to Texas to Mexico to Poland preaching the Gospel, establishing (Acts 16:5) and strengthening (Acts 15:41) Churches in every city that I have dwelt. As Gwen taught me so long ago I have encouraged my sons in the faith (1Tm 1:2) to take heed unto the doctrine (1Tm 4:16) knowing that only the Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2Tm 3:15-17). In my travels around the world I have only personally met two men that could read and speak Greek fluently and only one man who could handle Hebrew with any type of expertise. Of the 26+ churches established in Mexico there are no men or woman in those churches who can understand Greek and Hebrew, yet there are 100’s of men who have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Act 15:26) and the authority of the Scriptures. Many have suffered more for the cause of Christ in a few years than most American Christians have, or will, in a life time. Of the three churches here in Poland I have met one man who could speak Greek fluently, being a graduate of Philology from Cambridge University he spoke and read 7 other languages fluently as well. Brother Dave, as we like to call him, has on more than one occasion had to rebuke and correct the pious seminary students who came to our church and waxed bold trying to cast doubt on words, phrases and verses as found in the Polish Scriptures with their limited knowledge of Greek. All of our converts are encouraged from the first point of contact to read the Scriptures and prove all things by the Scriptures (1Thes 5:21).
Having said all this as a backdrop, I have the following statements to make:

• The Scriptures that Gwen opened to me on December 24, 1974 have the same authority as the Scriptures that Jesus expounded from on the road to Emmaus - given by inspiration of God.
  
• The Scriptures, from which Gwen showed me that Jesus is the only Saviour of the world, did not have any less authority than the very words of Christ to the dwellers in the city of Samaria (J 4).
  
• The Scriptures that Gwen read from on that cold and rainy night in Ypsilanti, Michigan were the very words of God in every word, phrase, verse, chapter and book.
  
• Biblical doctrine can only come from Scripture given by inspiration of God (2Tm 3:16-17), the doctrines that Gwen taught me while sitting in a booth at Hardee’s Hamburgers came from Scriptures given by inspiration of God. They weren't any less given by inspiration of God than the Scriptures Philip expounded from when dealing the Eunuch (Acts 8).
  
• The Scriptures that I believed, and from which my faith came (Rm 10:17), were the very words of God in every word, phrase, verse, chapter and book. They were no more words of men than the Scriptures Jesus commanded the pharisees to search (J 5:39).
  
• The Scriptures that I read every day, personally, to my family and to the lost out on the streets are the very words of God in every word, phrase, verse, chapter and book. They aren't any less the very words God than the words that God spoke directly from heaven to the Apostles (J 12:28; Acts 9:4; Rev 14:13, etc.).
  
• I have preached and exhorted myriads of Americans, Mexicans and Poles in such cities as Ypsilanti, Detroit, San Antonio, Guadalajara, Leon, Aguascalientes, San Juan de los Lagos, D.F., Irapuato, San Luis Potosi, Guanajuato, Queretero, Lagos de Moreno, Warsaw, ŁÃ³dź, Toruń, Gdańsk, etc., to read the Holy Scriptures in their respective languages and to believe that every word, phrase and verse in those Scriptures as the very voice of God having God’s authority. I did not err in doing so. For those who harkened unto my preaching and exhortation and took the time to read the Scriptures in their language were not reading Scriptures less inspired, less authoritative, less perfect, or less infallible, etc., than the Scriptures that Timothy read from his youth (2Tm 3:15-17) and that were read in the synagogues every sabbath day (Acts 15:21).
  
• The vast multitude of our converts and myself are persuaded that the Scriptures that we read, search and believe are indeed the very words of God even though we have very limited knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. Our genuine faith does not require a knowledge of the originals (languages or autographs).  Out genuine faith came from the very words of the Living God (Rm 10:17) and those words are no less the words of God than the words Moses heard speaking to him on the mount.
  
• Those Scriptures that we have read, believed, searched, and lived have the same God given authority as God’s finger written copy of the 10 Commandments, Moses’ various copies and all the autographs as originally penned in every word, phrase and verse.

Got it? Good!

 

[rsc2a]

I am curious as to the point of your post above.

Spam.

 

[biscuit1953]

I am curious as to the point of your post above.

Wow, a question asking for clarity. "Martha, there's hope yet, don't give up on ole Barry! He's a brother in Christ, he'll come around..."

In answer to your question, all things have a purpose.

1) Someone stated: "God gave His word, once, through the prophets of old."
The above post shows clearly that the statement above is erroneous. God gave his word many times and not just through the prophets of old. He gave His word many, many times. He commanded Adam and Eve, He spoke to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He spoke to Moses, Jeremiah, Daniel and other prophets, He spoke to Pharaoh, David and Solomon, He spoke to Mary, Joseph, Zacharias and many others. He spoke by His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God in fact spoke at sundry times and in divers manners unto the fathers by the prophets (Heb 1:1). And yes, when those holy men of God SPOKE they did so being moved by the Holy Ghost (2P 1,20-21). We have a more sure word of prophesy than they because it is SCRIPTURE - written down as a permanent record (2P 1:19-20). We have 66 Canonical books, each given at DIFFERENT times, not once as erroneously suggested.

2) "Is the Polish Bible inspired in the same manner as the originals were inspired?"
The post above points out with Scriptural clarity that the word of God comes to man in divers manners.  The character/quality of God's word doesn't change. The word of God, as found in the Scriptures, today has the same character/quality and authority as the very voice of God did in the days of Moses. Paul stated that Timothy had the Holy Scriptures from his youth. Those Scriptures are not any "less inspired", "less perfect (trustworthy), "less pure", "less infallible" or "less authoritative" than the finger of God tables of stone that came down off the mount with Moses.

Almost 35 years ago I met a 17 year Christian young lady who opened the Scriptures (Lk 24:32) unto me after overcoming the fears that so often inhibit believers from giving a Gospel witness. She showed me from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ (Acts 18:35), the only Saviour of the world (J 4:42). One of the places of the Scriptures (Acts 8:32) which she read was this: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13). She convinced me that the Scriptures were the word of God to be received, not as the word of men, but as they are in truth, the word of God (1Thes 2:13) and that if I would take God at His word (1John 5:9-13) I would truly be born again (John 3:8) by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Gal 3:26) and saved from the wrath to come (1Thes 1:10). This young lady, who was so bold to expound the Scriptures to me, died at the very young age of 21 years old. She left behind a beloved husband and a 1 year old son. Before she died she encouraged me to read (1Tm 4:13) and search the Scriptures daily (Acts 17:11). She did not understand Greek or Hebrew, yet clearly demonstrated from the Scriptures that whosoever believes on Him shall not be ashamed (Romans 10:11). I owe a great debt (Romans 1:14) of gratitude to Gwen Higgens (Seager) for her faithfulness and have endeavored to carry the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the regions beyond (2Cor 10:16) always remembering her faith in the word of God, the Scriptures. From that day until now I have read the Scriptures, but never in Greek or Hebrew, not having knowledge of those languages. By God’s grace I have traveled from Michigan to Texas to Mexico to Poland preaching the Gospel, establishing (Acts 16:5) and strengthening (Acts 15:41) Churches in every city that I have dwelt. As Gwen taught me so long ago I have encouraged my sons in the faith (1Tm 1:2) to take heed unto the doctrine (1Tm 4:16) knowing that only the Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2Tm 3:15-17). In my travels around the world I have only personally met two men that could read and speak Greek fluently and only one man who could handle Hebrew with any type of expertise. Of the 26+ churches established in Mexico there are no men or woman in those churches who can understand Greek and Hebrew, yet there are 100’s of men who have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Act 15:26) and the authority of the Scriptures. Many have suffered more for the cause of Christ in a few years than most American Christians have, or will, in a life time. Of the three churches here in Poland I have met one man who could speak Greek fluently, being a graduate of Philology from Cambridge University he spoke and read 7 other languages fluently as well. Brother Dave, as we like to call him, has on more than one occasion had to rebuke and correct the pious seminary students who came to our church and waxed bold trying to cast doubt on words, phrases and verses as found in the Polish Scriptures with their limited knowledge of Greek. All of our converts are encouraged from the first point of contact to read the Scriptures and prove all things by the Scriptures (1Thes 5:21).
Having said all this as a backdrop, I have the following statements to make:

• The Scriptures that Gwen opened to me on December 24, 1974 have the same authority as the Scriptures that Jesus expounded from on the road to Emmaus - given by inspiration of God.
  
• The Scriptures, from which Gwen showed me that Jesus is the only Saviour of the world, did not have any less authority than the very words of Christ to the dwellers in the city of Samaria (J 4).
  
• The Scriptures that Gwen read from on that cold and rainy night in Ypsilanti, Michigan were the very words of God in every word, phrase, verse, chapter and book.
  
• Biblical doctrine can only come from Scripture given by inspiration of God (2Tm 3:16-17), the doctrines that Gwen taught me while sitting in a booth at Hardee’s Hamburgers came from Scriptures given by inspiration of God. They weren't any less given by inspiration of God than the Scriptures Philip expounded from when dealing the Eunuch (Acts 8).
  
• The Scriptures that I believed, and from which my faith came (Rm 10:17), were the very words of God in every word, phrase, verse, chapter and book. They were no more words of men than the Scriptures Jesus commanded the pharisees to search (J 5:39).
  
• The Scriptures that I read every day, personally, to my family and to the lost out on the streets are the very words of God in every word, phrase, verse, chapter and book. They aren't any less the very words God than the words that God spoke directly from heaven to the Apostles (J 12:28; Acts 9:4; Rev 14:13, etc.).
  
• I have preached and exhorted myriads of Americans, Mexicans and Poles in such cities as Ypsilanti, Detroit, San Antonio, Guadalajara, Leon, Aguascalientes, San Juan de los Lagos, D.F., Irapuato, San Luis Potosi, Guanajuato, Queretero, Lagos de Moreno, Warsaw, ŁÃ³dź, Toruń, Gdańsk, etc., to read the Holy Scriptures in their respective languages and to believe that every word, phrase and verse in those Scriptures as the very voice of God having God’s authority. I did not err in doing so. For those who harkened unto my preaching and exhortation and took the time to read the Scriptures in their language were not reading Scriptures less inspired, less authoritative, less perfect, or less infallible, etc., than the Scriptures that Timothy read from his youth (2Tm 3:15-17) and that were read in the synagogues every sabbath day (Acts 15:21).
  
• The vast multitude of our converts and myself are persuaded that the Scriptures that we read, search and believe are indeed the very words of God even though we have very limited knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. Our genuine faith does not require a knowledge of the originals (languages or autographs).  Out genuine faith came from the very words of the Living God (Rm 10:17) and those words are no less the words of God than the words Moses heard speaking to him on the mount.
  
• Those Scriptures that we have read, believed, searched, and lived have the same God given authority as God’s finger written copy of the 10 Commandments, Moses’ various copies and all the autographs as originally penned in every word, phrase and verse.

Got it? Good!

PS: I realized this when I picked up my first Peter Ruckman Commentary.  How foolish I was to think that the word of God was unbound in modern day American English.  The Spirit moves in mysterious ways.

 

[Mitex]

Testing, 1, 2, 3...
http://books.google.pl/books?id=Ns4GAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR52&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2O0TFfwJXZ_tc_71VRbCu5oHOJdA&ci=543%2C364%2C415%2C605&edge=0

Wow, it worked!

The Whole Works of John Bunyan ...: Reprinted from the Author's ..., Volume 1, Google Books.

 

[biscuit1953]

Testing, 1, 2, 3...
http://books.google.pl/books?id=Ns4GAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR52&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2O0TFfwJXZ_tc_71VRbCu5oHOJdA&ci=543%2C364%2C415%2C605&edge=0

Wow, it worked!

The Whole Works of John Bunyan ...: Reprinted from the Author's ..., Volume 1, Google Books.

Wow!  John Bunyan had the scriptures in his modern day language but we don't!  God bless King James!  And Peter Ruckman too!

 

[biscuit1953]

There is no need to hide the fact from people that our translations and copies have errors.
People understand that copies, from the original, are not going to be identical since Moses did not have a copy machine.
Even Mitex, who has a published errata for his own Scripture update, admits that errors are found in their Scripture. This obviously does not upset his Polish believers.
So, the old line "every verse, phrase and word" does not really work for the translations and copies.
This is where the fundy pietism has lost its way. They have taken a concept, not taught in Scripture, and applied it wrongly.
John Bunyan is not our standard for what Scripture teaches. He was a good man and wrote a great classic. However, his statement is not Scriptural. It creates confusion.

Scripture is Scripture, even with errors.

You are absolutely correct. 

Matthew 5:18 - For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Jesus didn't say "till every jot and tittle had been copied perfectly.  Man cannot break what God has ordained.  This along with John 10:35 refer to the fulfillment, not the exact copying.

When someone defends Peter Ruckman even on his abortion stance, talks like Ruckman, uses the same arguments as Ruckman, I would say that there is a very good chance that he is a Ruckmanite.

 

[Mitex]

"Scripture is Scripture, even with errors." Barry, FSSL, Admin

Barry's conclusion, the autograph being the Scripture is Scripture, even with errors.
Barry's conclusion, the originals being the Scripture is Scripture, even with errors.
Barry's conclusion, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God is Scripture, even with errors.
Barry's conclusion, the Scriptures the Bereans searched is Scripture, even with errors.
Barry's conclusion, the Scriptures that Jesus read from is Scripture, even with errors.
etc.

For those of us who believe the Scriptures, instead of Barry, we understand the word S-C-R-I-P-T-U-R-E is given by inspiration of God which implies that it is perfect, pure, infallible, and with out error (true in all that it states) - all the words of God!

We follow the Scriptures not Barry.

 

[Mitex]

Mitex's confusion... I WHOLLY reject the fact that the autographs have errors.

Please do not misrepresent my equivocal beliefs as stated concisely/clearly above.

ROFLOL! A little Freudian Slip there, Barry?
Your Original Onlyism showing! "The Scripture is Scripture, even with errors, unless of course, of course, the Scripture in focus is the autograph, then the Scripture is Scripture, even without errors of course, of course. Barry's slip is showing and it's colored with Original Onlyism.

Tell us o Wise One, were the autographs written in ALL CAPS or not? Is that a grammatical error by today's standards?

 

[rsc2a]

Tell us o Wise One, were the autographs written in ALL CAPS or not? Is that a grammatical error by today's standards?

Do you even have the ability to think logically? Why are you so anachronistic? Why would today's grammatical standards apply to those who were conserving precious writing material by not using spaces? Why do the lack of spaces mean that they are in error?

"Now we have this belief here. We'll go ahead and call it doctrine. Since we really cannot find anything about it in the Bible (because we are pretty much making things up), we are going to do whatever we need to do to force Scripture to 'say' what we need it to say. Bad reading and redefining words will be just be a few of the ways we can accomplish this.

Now watch while I use this really big hammer and a sawzall to fit this square peg into this round hole."

 

[rsc2a]

Other methods include:

- ignoring the big, giant gaping holes in the particular belief in question.
- ignoring any and all historical context.
- ignoring genre and/or literary context.
- appeal to authority.
- begging the question.
- special pleading.
- pretty much anything else on this list (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)
- numerology.