Saul spoke to Samuel via the witch at Endor?

[ALAYMAN]

1Sa 28:6  And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
1Sa 28:7  Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
1Sa 28:8  And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1Sa 28:9  And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
1Sa 28:10  And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1Sa 28:11  Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
1Sa 28:12  And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
1Sa 28:13  And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1Sa 28:14  And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
1Sa 28:15  And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
1Sa 28:16  Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?


Did Saul (or more properly, the witch) really speak to the prophet, or do you believe that the apparition was something other than the dearly departed Samuel?

 

[Izdaari]

This is too much work in the KJV. First, let me translate this into something I can understand without getting a headache:

1 Samuel 28:6-16
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

6 He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him in dreams or by the Urim or by the prophets. 7 Saul then said to his servants,

 

[ALAYMAN]

This is too much work in the KJV. First, let me translate this into something I can understand without getting a headache:....

Hmm. I don't know. It sounds like something Samuel might have said under the circumstances.

God had forbidden necromancy.  Doesn't it seem inconsistent to his immutable nature to allow something supernatural like this to occur, particurlarly given that Samuel was resting in God, and would have to be given God's permissive blessing for such a thing to occur?

 

[wheatpenny]

1 Samuel 28:15
Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

So is the Bible wrong when it calls the entity "Samuel"? (not "the spirit claiming to be Samuel")

 

[Ransom]

Did Saul (or more properly, the witch) really speak to the prophet, or do you believe that the apparition was something other than the dearly departed Samuel?

The passage says the witch saw Samuel, not "a demon impersonating Samuel."

Samuel then pronounced God's judgment on the house of Saul, which came to pass the following day.

Generally speaking, the only justification I've ever seen for not believing that Samuel actually was Samuel, comes from those heterodox groups who teach "soul sleep" (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists), and who would therefore say that Samuel effectively didn't exist to be called up, so it must have been an impostor.

Doesn't it seem inconsistent to his immutable nature to allow something supernatural like this to occur, particurlarly given that Samuel was resting in God, and would have to be given God's permissive blessing for such a thing to occur?

That's a non sequitur. How does "God forbids necromancy" equate to it being out of God's character to send a dead prophet up to judge Saul one last time?  Necromancy isn't forbidden to him, is it? I would assume that the spiritual beings who inhabit heaven have the ability to converse directly with the dearly departed saints anytime they so desire.

 

[ALAYMAN]

1 Samuel 28:15
Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

So is the Bible wrong when it calls the entity "Samuel"? (not "the spirit claiming to be Samuel")

Is it possible that the witch thought it was Samuel, but was merely fooled by a demonic apparition?  For instance, John Gill says...

1 Samuel 28:12  And when the woman saw Samuel,.... The appearance of him whom she took for Samuel; no mention is made of the methods she used to raise him, to check the curiosity of such as might be desirous to know them, and to prevent the imitation of them; though some think that Samuel, or the apparition, was seen before she made use of any, which surprised her; but this seems not so probable, and is only observed for the sake of an hypothesis; though it must be owned the word "when" is not in the text:

That's a non sequitur. How does "God forbids necromancy" equate to it being out of God's character to send a dead prophet up to judge Saul one last time?

He had already not only judged Saul "finally" by taking the kingdom from him, but had pronounced that he would not heed his incessant and petulant petitions any longer.  Seems pretty capricious to say in one breath that you are no longer communicating with somebody and then quickly afterwards reversing field.

  Necromancy isn't forbidden to him, is it? I would assume that the spiritual beings who inhabit heaven have the ability to converse directly with the dearly departed saints anytime they so desire.

But it isn't a question merely of heavenly spiritual beings speaking to the dearly departed, but a witch performing a strictly forbidden sinful activity, and summoning a saint of God, presumably by God's blessing and power.  Something doesn't reconcile so easily.  We see supernatural activity performed by Satan in the book of Revelation, so it is most certainly possible that since God had turned Saul over to Satan that this event was indeed a judgment of God, but one that didn't involve Samuel participating in known abomination.

 

[christundivided]

Maybe you should pay attention to verse 19.

1Sa 28:19  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Verse 19 is a clear prophecy of a future event. Go ahead and believe that it wasn't Saul. In such a case, you have to believe a "lying spirit" actually accurately foretold the future. Gill tries to downplay this fact and does a very poor job of doing so.

 

[Ransom]

Is it possible that the witch thought it was Samuel, but was merely fooled by a demonic apparition?

It's also possible that Samuel appeared to the witch by flying out of your butt, but only slightly more likely.

The Scriptures say the witch saw Samuel - not that she was fooled into thinking she saw Samuel.

Seems pretty capricious

Seems like you're just being deliberately dense again to stir up crap.

 

[Biker]

Did Saul (or more properly, the witch) really speak to the prophet, or do you believe that the apparition was something other than the dearly departed Samuel?

This is a great post. Anyhow, i will take a stab at it...

1 Samuel 28:11-12
11 Then the woman said,

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=christundivided]1Sa 28:19  Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Verse 19 is a clear prophecy of a future event. Go ahead and believe that it wasn't Saul. In such a case, you have to believe a "lying spirit" actually accurately foretold the future. Gill tries to downplay this fact and does a very poor job of doing so.
[/quote]

So  you believe that Saul and all his sons were going to be with Samuel in heaven?

The Scriptures say the witch saw Samuel - not that she was fooled into thinking she saw Samuel.

Scriptures depict in narrative fashion that she *claimed* to have seen *something*, and yet Saul saw nothing.

Seems like you're just being deliberately dense again to stir up crap.

You're an idiot, plain and simple.  When somebody presents something counter to what you hold to be true you become exceeding toolish.  I'm not the only person to suggest this line of reasoning, and  such argumentation does not only exist in the corners of annihilationists.

Verse 35 my take is Samuel grieved over Saul so they were likely bonded, the perfect person to inform him of his salvation and death.

What is this "verse 35" that you refer to?

 

[Castor Muscular]

What I want to know is:  Was the witch at Endor a happy medium? 

 

[christundivided]

So  you believe that Saul and all his sons were going to be with Samuel in heaven?

Lets be a little more accurate. Lets call it paradise. The same place his father "Abraham" dwelled at the time.

Sure, I believe this. Why don't you?

At one time Saul was God's annotated....even a prophet of God. Surely you know you bible enough to remember this. Maybe you don't.

So.. do you believe God abandons His own? If God does, then we all are in a lot of trouble. That includes an outstandingly legalistic IFB such as yourself.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=christundivided]
At one time Saul was God's annotated....[/quote]


He was "supplied with explanatory notes"????


Was he abridged too???



ROFLOL!


As always lil buddy, thanks for the chuckle.

 

[christundivided]

[quote author=christundivided]
At one time Saul was God's annotated....

He was "supplied with explanatory notes"????


Was he abridged too???



ROFLOL!


As always lil buddy, thanks for the chuckle.
[/quote]

Speller checker got me. I'm not your little buddy. Sorry you can't handle the truth about Saul.

Do you believe God abandons His own?

 

[Castor Muscular]

FWIW, count me among those who thinks Saul spoke to Samuel, and not some demonic spirit pretending to be Samuel.  Everything about the text communicates that it is Samuel.  You have to approach the text with presuppositions and ignore the obvious in order to draw any other conclusion. 

 

[Izdaari]

FWIW, count me among those who thinks Saul spoke to Samuel, and not some demonic spirit pretending to be Samuel.  Everything about the text communicates that it is Samuel.  You have to approach the text with presuppositions and ignore the obvious in order to draw any other conclusion.

Yeah, I think so. I don't see any reason not to take that passage at face value.

 

[Ransom]

Scriptures depict in narrative fashion that she *claimed* to have seen *something*, and yet Saul saw nothing.

Funny how you think Scriptures say the witch "claimed" to have seen "something," when in fact the narrator of the book says she saw (not "claimed to see") Samuel (not "something").

You're an idiot, plain and simple.

Be that as it may, you're the one with the reading disability.

 

[Biker]

Allayman- What is this "verse 35" that you refer to?

Sorry it is


1 Samuel 15:35 He did not see Saul again until the day of his death; for Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Sidenote: I am praying for your family and baby 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Scriptures depict in narrative fashion that she *claimed* to have seen *something*, and yet Saul saw nothing.

Funny how you think Scriptures say the witch "claimed" to have seen "something," when in fact the narrator of the book says she saw (not "claimed to see") Samuel (not "something").

A witch saw an apparition, one that nobody else saw.  That alone is somewhat significant to me.

Sidenote: I am praying for your family and baby 

Thank you.

 

[Ransom]

A witch saw an apparition, one that nobody else saw.  That alone is somewhat significant to me.

A witch, according to God-breathed Scripture, saw Samuel. That you continue to insert words into Holy Scripture without any warrant, is very significant to me.